145 réponses à ce sujet

[Tirigon]

If you play with BM I would not put points in will. I wouldn´t put points in dex either, btw. I had both first, on my AW/BM first playthrough, but I used respec-mod and went all magic and a little con. Was better.

[Mr_Raider]

Xolah wrote...

Meh i always start small then build up on better gear. Yesterday i made an AW/BM did the lvl 25 glitch. I made my Dex 25 and the rest went into Mag. Jeez i barely have any mana left over to use after i put on my sustainbles. Was i supposed to put points into Wil?

That's why I always disagree with the people who say put everything in magic. The argument that you can cast everything, then turn on your sustainables doesn't really work, since you will be getting smacked around while you turn on 4 sustainables. I tend to leave teh defensives like rock armor on all the time, as well as telekinetic weapons since it helps my party.

With 30 willpower, eamons shield, executioners helm, wade's superior armor and anduil's blessing you get a very sizeable mana pool. Blood mages can can probably get away with 20 willpower, put you won't be much of a caster until late levels.

[mosspit]

Mr_Raider wrote...

Xolah wrote...

Meh i always start small then build up on better gear. Yesterday i made an AW/BM did the lvl 25 glitch. I made my Dex 25 and the rest went into Mag. Jeez i barely have any mana left over to use after i put on my sustainbles. Was i supposed to put points into Wil?

That's why I always disagree with the people who say put everything in magic. The argument that you can cast everything, then turn on your sustainables doesn't really work, since you will be getting smacked around while you turn on 4 sustainables. I tend to leave teh defensives like rock armor on all the time, as well as telekinetic weapons since it helps my party.

With 30 willpower, eamons shield, executioners helm, wade's superior armor and anduil's blessing you get a very sizeable mana pool. Blood mages can can probably get away with 20 willpower, put you won't be much of a caster until late levels.

Thats the reason I gave 2 builds. Pure mag build requires the use of items and talent selection/limitation to get past the mana shortage/low accuracy. Both builds tie heavily to personal playstyles.
In fact on my pure mag build, I find my acc/def is of a bigger concern than mana shortage. Somehow, mana pool is sufficient becose of items and the fact that I invested talents/sustainables in a progressive manner. But I do not expect anyone else to completely understand this.
It all really depends on advantages-vs-tradeoffs a gamer is willing to play with.

Modifié par mosspit, 01 février 2010 - 02:13 .

[Lakmoots]

This is odd...

You get sooo many bonus points from the Fade/Tomes... why dumb it down with a one-stat character? 

Anyone who has *any* attack problems, or mana pool problems is really just building "stupid".

A main character can have a TREMENDOUS magic score and nothing else, or... have a bit of everything. Functionally, only one choice makes sense.

At level 22, my Magic score is the same as Wynne or Morrigan's. So you are still the hardest hitting mage.

BUT.... I have a huge mana pool and a high dexterity.

For one, Dex gives you a chance to hit AND avoid hits. For combat, this is really important.

And I have enough mana to cast everything I want... during Combat Magic.

I can cast Mana Clash, Force Field, Crushing Prison, and Mind Blast all at once and then go the hack. With Blood Magic it is even easier, but I don't even need it except for the Blood Spells. There is even enough to Heal allies and throw a Cone of Cold or two...

Small mana pool is code for "not thinking about my build". No dexterity is code for "I want attack problems".

A one stat character is advised alot. It is BAD advice, I think.

More so than any other mage, an AW needs more willpower, otherwise you get this awful "not really a mage or a fighter" type character that others seem to be advising.

As a long-time player of D&D Fighter-Mages I was determined to be both... and it is easy

[mosspit]

Lakmoots wrote...

This is odd...

You get sooo many bonus points from the Fade/Tomes... why dumb it down with a one-stat character? 

Anyone who has *any* attack problems, or mana pool problems is really just building "stupid".

A main character can have a TREMENDOUS magic score and nothing else, or... have a bit of everything. Functionally, only one choice makes sense.

At level 22, my Magic score is the same as Wynne or Morrigan's. So you are still the hardest hitting mage.

BUT.... I have a huge mana pool and a high dexterity.

For one, Dex gives you a chance to hit AND avoid hits. For combat, this is really important.

And I have enough mana to cast everything I want... during Combat Magic.

I can cast Mana Clash, Force Field, Crushing Prison, and Mind Blast all at once and then go the hack. With Blood Magic it is even easier, but I don't even need it except for the Blood Spells. There is even enough to Heal allies and throw a Cone of Cold or two...

Small mana pool is code for "not thinking about my build". No dexterity is code for "I want attack problems".

A one stat character is advised alot. It is BAD advice, I think.

More so than any other mage, an AW needs more willpower, otherwise you get this awful "not really a mage or a fighter" type character that others seem to be advising.

As a long-time player of D&D Fighter-Mages I was determined to be both... and it is easy

Apparently you never bothered to look at the "I do not expect anyone else to understand becose it is a personal choice" part. Saying a someone's build is "stupid" is very offensive and downright rude but whatever.

I shall repeat that I have given 2 builds. Pure mag is just one that focus on damage above anything else while making tradeoffs on many other aspects. If you do not wanna bother with min/max, then dont bother. if you have assumed no planning is done, you assumed wrong.

Modifié par mosspit, 01 février 2010 - 10:08 .

[miltos33]

Of course I will not try to criticize other people's builds myself. But I found the balanced approach to work better for me than the min max approach for my arcane warrior/spirit healer and I also tend to think that generally a balanced approach is more appropriate for a hybrid character. Every two levels I would invest 3 points in magic, 2 points in willpower, and 1 point in dexterity. Given that my character had the best gear in the game she ended up as at least as powerful a mage as Morrigan and at least as powerful a warrior as Alistair.

[Ramante]

miltos33 wrote...

Of course I will not try to criticize other people's builds myself. But I found the balanced approach to work better for me than the min max approach for my arcane warrior/spirit healer and I also tend to think that generally a balanced approach is more appropriate for a hybrid character. Every two levels I would invest 3 points in magic, 2 points in willpower, and 1 point in dexterity. Given that my character had the best gear in the game she ended up as at least as powerful a mage as Morrigan and at least as powerful a warrior as Alistair.

Good to know.

One question, when you're playing as aw/sh do you take a second mage with you? 'Cause i was thinking about creating an aw/sh but I don't want a second mage in my team, so how did you do it? I'm really having second thoughts about it and am even considering making an aw/bm...

[beancounter501]

Interesting read here. My next character is going to be an Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer. But I am kind of surprised to see that no one is recommending Heroic Offense for an AW. It seems almost a no-brainer. That one spell can easily add 15 to 20 to your attack, is a tier 1 spell and only costs 20 mana. That is equal to 30 to 40 extra points in dex! A character who put every single point into magic should have a higher attack rating then most warriors with Combat Magic/Miasma/Heroic Offense.

[Mr_Raider]

Heroic offense is great. Just give it to another mage in the party!



Does anyone know if the attack bonus from combat magic capped? I see nothing on the wiki, but others have said it caps 10+10 (10+ spellpower*.2, max magic 60)

[beancounter501]

Nothing in the spell script indicates there is a cap.

[miltos33]

Ramante wrote...

Good to know.

One question, when you're playing as aw/sh do you take a second mage with you? 'Cause i was thinking about creating an aw/sh but I don't want a second mage in my team, so how did you do it? I'm really having second thoughts about it and am even considering making an aw/bm...

As an AW/SH you are pretty much covered and you don't need another mage in your party. While as an AW/BM you may need another mage in the party with access to group heal which is nevertheless more of a convenience and less of a prerequisite.

Besides, RTO has Cailan's Arms which is a sword + shield set that gives a whopping 6 mana regeneration, so along with other gear it is now pretty easy to reach something like 12-13 mana regenation, and therefore you don't necessarily have to use blood magic to manage your sustainables.

You lose Blood Wound which is probably the best crowd control spell in the game but you get Cleansing Aura that is an extremely powerfull spell. Before RTO only Wynne could sustain this spell because of the Spirit of the Vessel that gave her 4 mana regeneration but now any character can do it and even better.

It was great fun going through RTO as an AW/SH as I was able to sustain either my shimmering shield or my cleansing aura according to the circumstances and still regenarating mana and being able to cast spells. You can either activate your cleansing aura which makes the rest of the party invincible and stay in the back to support them with staff and spells or you can activate your shimmering shield which makes yourself invincible and go to the frontline to clean up the battlefield with sword and shield.
 
A versatile character that plays very much like the D&D Cleric that we all learned to love in the past.

[Focaccia]

Where do you get fade wall from?
And Xolah you are not suppose to put everything into magic, 50 will do fine, rest goes to will , dex and const however you like to divide em. BUt i say bias to will.
The warden tower shield is a rare drop but it does drop. I've gotten it 2-3 times in my playthroughs, of course i had to try quite a number of times but less than 20 times definitely.

Modifié par Focaccia, 01 février 2010 - 05:26 .

[-Jaren-]

m14567 wrote...

-Jaren- wrote...

Tirigon wrote...

-Jaren- wrote...

Long story short AW is the most broken class in this game. You can solo anything with the proper knowledge. Oh and I havent tried AW/SH because BM is too good.

Everyone is claiming to solo Gaxkang nowadays, with every class, so that´s nothing special.....

Anyways, why is a class broken because it´s strong? I´d say a class is broken if it CAN´T solo things with the proper knowledge......

I would love to see another class solo him without Pots.  Too my knowledge it cant be done.  Broken  

Would love to be proven wrong though.  Maybe a 2H with enough stuns, Spell Resist,  and Indomitable.  Would need to have Precise Striking up because his Def. is so high.  Idk...

You must be joking, solo-ing gaxkang without healing potions isn't saying much, hell even I can do that...

Impressive.  I didn't realize Cold Iron Runes worked on Gax.  Templar/Champ is a great combo on Gax as you've shown.  Momentum ftw and alot of spell resist.  Well done.

I will add that it still is hard for a lot of classes. 

[mosspit]

beancounter501 wrote...

Interesting read here. My next character is going to be an Arcane Warrior/Spirit Healer. But I am kind of surprised to see that no one is recommending Heroic Offense for an AW. It seems almost a no-brainer. That one spell can easily add 15 to 20 to your attack, is a tier 1 spell and only costs 20 mana. That is equal to 30 to 40 extra points in dex! A character who put every single point into magic should have a higher attack rating then most warriors with Combat Magic/Miasma/Heroic Offense.

You read my mind too. My pure mag AW at mid game is powered by heroic offence.

An AW who has 15 point added to dex (to reach 30) vs another that placed them in mag will get 4.5 extra atk. (0.2atk per mag vs 0.5atk per dex). I come to an conclusion that I wanted to cover this deficit with heroic atk.

Modifié par mosspit, 02 février 2010 - 02:13 .

[Lakmoots]

mosspit wrote...

Lakmoots wrote...

This is odd...

Apparently you never bothered to look at the "I do not expect anyone else to understand becose it is a personal choice" part. Saying a someone's build is "stupid" is very offensive and downright rude but whatever.

I shall repeat that I have given 2 builds. Pure mag is just one that focus on damage above anything else while making tradeoffs on many other aspects. If you do not wanna bother with min/max, then dont bother. if you have assumed no planning is done, you assumed wrong.

Ummm...

I did not call you, or anyone else, stupid.

Perhaps you need to read my post before reacting with hostility... "but whatever"

[miltos33]

mosspit wrote...

You read my mind too. My pure mag AW at mid game is powered by heroic offence.

An AW who has 15 point added to dex (to reach 30) vs another that placed them in mag will get 4.5 extra atk. (0.2atk per mag vs 0.5atk per dex). I come to an conclusion that I wanted to cover this deficit with heroic atk.

Your calculations are correct but this 4.5 extra attack usually makes all the difference between being able to hit your enemies or not. The 15 points added to dex will also give you an additional 15 defense that will make you much harder to hit.

Yes, you can cover this deficit with heroic offense and heroic defense but an AW is already a buff dependent class and by the time you cast combat magic, shimmering shield, heroic offense, heroic defense, etc the battle will probably be over with you and your party dead.

A better solution for a low dex AW would be to use a sustainable like Miasma that debuffs your enemies by -10 attack and -10 defense which is the same as giving you +10 attack and +10 defense. Besides, it has a large radius so the rest of your party can also benefit from. However, it comes at a cost because it reserves a portion of your mana and gives you fatigue which means that you probably have to invest more in willpower.

Therefore, perhaps the best solution is to spare a few points for dexterity because an inherent ability is always better than a circumstantial buff or even a sustainable.

As Bodhan would probably say, this is what I've heard on the road anyway, take it for what it is.

[mosspit]

miltos33 wrote...

mosspit wrote...

You read my mind too. My pure mag AW at mid game is powered by heroic offence.

An AW who has 15 point added to dex (to reach 30) vs another that placed them in mag will get 4.5 extra atk. (0.2atk per mag vs 0.5atk per dex). I come to an conclusion that I wanted to cover this deficit with heroic atk.

Your calculations are correct but this 4.5 extra attack usually makes all the difference between being able to hit your enemies or not. The 15 points added to dex will also give you an additional 15 defense that will make you much harder to hit.

Yes, you can cover this deficit with heroic offense and heroic defense but an AW is already a buff dependent class and by the time you cast combat magic, shimmering shield, heroic offense, heroic defense, etc the battle will probably be over with you and your party dead.

A better solution for a low dex AW would be to use a sustainable like Miasma that debuffs your enemies by -10 attack and -10 defense which is the same as giving you +10 attack and +10 defense. Besides, it has a large radius so the rest of your party can also benefit from. However, it comes at a cost because it reserves a portion of your mana and gives you fatigue which means that you probably have to invest more in willpower.

Therefore, perhaps the best solution is to spare a few points for dexterity because an inherent ability is always better than a circumstantial buff or even a sustainable.

As Bodhan would probably say, this is what I've heard on the road anyway, take it for what it is.

Yes.... I know.... I made all these considerations before deciding a pure mag build. There was alot of theorycrafting done. Pure mag, although is simple to plan attribute-wise, will not work if talent/item selection are made willy-nilly. Early game, my talent selection are literally just-in-time.

I am iffy on heroic defence but heroic offence was in the plan all along. Beancounter just nailed it. Miasma is a fine suggestion. I have it on most of the time mid game. However, I had enough mana to activate the sustainables i need at base willpower. Ofc more willpower will enable me to cast 1/2 more spells in combat mode. But at mid game I limit my spellcast in combat mode. Past lvl 14 I will rely on blood magic.
Acrane shield + rock armour + combat magic is mostly enuff. I will have incense of awareness and rock salve on standby. Heroic offence isnt so bad... weap swap to cut the time by half. And it is situational for high def targets.

Modifié par mosspit, 02 février 2010 - 05:36 .

[beancounter501]

Agree, I just don't see why you would ignore the second best combat attack buff spell in the game. The only one that is better is Combat Magic. If you think a +4-5 on attack is good from boosting dexterity, don't you think a +15-20 is better from Heroic Offense? Besides, they are not mutually exclusive you good get both - dex and HO. HO is only a tier 1 spell, you are not giving up hardly anything to just pick up that one spell.

[miltos33]

Heroic Offense is not a bad spell by any standards but I agree with Mr_Raider that it is best to give it to another mage in the party. The reason is that it takes precious time to cast it, along with your other buffs, right in the middle of the battle. It is also one of these spells that requires you to sheathe your weapon which makes it even longer to cast. I know there is a trick about this but the process may be tedious for some.

[mosspit]

Oh... maybe I am a little confused becose my AW/BM is running solo. Valid comments

[Mr_Raider]

miltos33 wrote...

Heroic Offense is not a bad spell by any standards but I agree with Mr_Raider that it is best to give it to another mage in the party. The reason is that it takes precious time to cast it, along with your other buffs, right in the middle of the battle. It is also one of these spells that requires you to sheathe your weapon which makes it even longer to cast. I know there is a trick about this but the process may be tedious for some.

Yup. set wynne to main character attacked by melee, use ability heroic offense.

[beancounter501]

That would work. But I just dislike having to rely on party buffs. I may not always want Wynne around or I may decide to turn Wynne into an AW warrior as well!

[-Jaren-]

beancounter501 wrote...

That would work. But I just dislike having to rely on party buffs. I may not always want Wynne around or I may decide to turn Wynne into an AW warrior as well!

And its for this reason that every AW should have Haste.  If you have haste you have Heroic Offense.  Good to go.  Start a fight with Heroic Offense or else your sheathing :/  Oh how I hate sheathing... <_<

[Ako80]

beancounter501 wrote...

Agree, I just don't see why you would ignore the second best combat attack buff spell in the game. The only one that is better is Combat Magic. If you think a +4-5 on attack is good from boosting dexterity, don't you think a +15-20 is better from Heroic Offense? Besides, they are not mutually exclusive you good get both - dex and HO. HO is only a tier 1 spell, you are not giving up hardly anything to just pick up that one spell.

And its for this reason that every AW should have Haste.  If you have
haste you have Heroic Offense.  Good to go.  Start a fight with Heroic
Offense or else your sheathing.

I disagree. The second best buff is Miasma and Heroic Offense if iffy at best. As you mentioned, it's a sheathe weapons spell but worse than that the duration is worthless. If you get Haste anyway you might as well use Heroic Offense ocassionaly but the Heroic spells should still be seen as 3 wasted talents to unlock Haste. Haste is very good but requires a dedicated build to offset the attack penalty, mana drain and 4 talent picks it requires.

Modifié par Ako80, 02 février 2010 - 11:40 .

[-Jaren-]

Ako80 wrote...

beancounter501 wrote...

Agree, I just don't see why you would ignore the second best combat attack buff spell in the game. The only one that is better is Combat Magic. If you think a +4-5 on attack is good from boosting dexterity, don't you think a +15-20 is better from Heroic Offense? Besides, they are not mutually exclusive you good get both - dex and HO. HO is only a tier 1 spell, you are not giving up hardly anything to just pick up that one spell.

And its for this reason that every AW should have Haste.  If you have
haste you have Heroic Offense.  Good to go.  Start a fight with Heroic
Offense or else your sheathing.

I disagree. The second best buff is Miasma and Heroic Offense if iffy at best. As you mentioned, it's a sheathe weapons spell but worse than that the duration is worthless. If you get Haste anyway you might as well use Heroic Offense ocassionaly but the Heroic spells should still be seen as 3 wasted talents to unlock Haste. Haste is very good but requires a dedicated build to offset the attack penalty, mana drain and 4 talent picks it requires.

Im confused who exactly you're disagreeing with.  I was and still in the mindset that Haste is completely worth the 4 spell cost.  I rarely use Heroic Offense because with my gear and Combat Magic active my attack rating is at 176 with Spell Might.  Lvl 21 currently.  I dont miss the attack penalty from Haste at all.  Haste is made of win.  Pure and simple.

I do agree that it does take a certain build.  Im more of a controller AW than most.  I got Haste and Combat Magic as soon as I hit level 7.  Mostly pop on Blood Wound than go to town Melee style.  I love my AW