180 réponses à ce sujet

[BouhPwet]

I can't say that I like many of the changes in ME2.

I guess they wanted to make more of an action-oriented, movie-like, game and that's why they made some drastic changes as compared to the 1st episode. But, come on...

• No inventory at all
• No real level-up system
• No map during missions

This games feels a lot more like a "pure FPS" than a typical "Bioware RPG".


No inventory: OK, I can understand that some dislike the time it takes to sort out loot, offload at vendors etc. On the other hand, a significant interest in this type of game is a (randomp) drop system that can bring enhancements (hate the new upgrade system!). And, in the 1st installment, you could:

* Change your armor, and that of all your companions, thereby (slightly) modifying their appearance.
* Decide to go for more shields, more armor, more resistance... Basically, you could choose, based on stats, and thus make it more adapted to your style of play
* Insert "modules" into weapons in order to modify their behaviour (less recoil, less overheat, toxic damage...)
* Sell equipment, to make cash, to buy better weapon, armor, upgrades... (in ME2 you wonder why there are merchants at all...)

All of the above ? Gone in ME2... You have to go with what they give you and there's only one upgrade path per weapon type.


This limits freedom and customization so much that this game doesn't feel like a modern game anymore...

Oversimplifying the situation, it's now reduced to: kill stuff, talk, move, rinse, repeat...

If I want to blow up stuff, I go play an FPS and I don't care so much about dialogue and storyline. Conversely, if I feel like playing a story-based game, I don't expect too much emphasis on frantic combat... and ammo management. I thought Bioware had managed to strike a good balance between both in their previous games (read: the KotOR series, ME1 and even DA:O), but in ME2: bleh.


No real level up system: Probably for the same reasons as previously mentioned (to spend less time on idle screens like merchants, inventory, character sheet etc.), ME2 does not offer a real level up system. Again, imho, it's step back from the 1st one.

Each character now has a limited set of skills, less points to allocate, and less possibilities (only goes up to... 4), oh and no more "weapon-oriented" skills.

Worse, it almost looks like everyone and their cousins has access to the same powers. There's a lot less variety in the "builds" you can make. So in essence, the same "conclusion" as above: Less freedom, less customization ; which ultimately leads to: The player feels like he can't adapt the game to his playstyle, it's the other way around !

The player feels "forced" to follow the track laid out for him.Which is something you could expect from a company that designs game poorly, with limited resources, creativity and sense of "gaming fun" ; but not from Bioware.


In ME1, the inventory management and the level up system gave a real sense of progression. You went from a rag tag team with basic equipment, to a skilled ensemble with top-notch gear, and yet the missions could still be challenging.

You could also decide to grant more biotic duration for Tali, and more power for Liara (not possible in ME2); more melee power to Urdnox, more shields for yourself, but more armor for Ashley etc. So it really felt like you were custom-building a team of specialists that would work well together.

And it would also make a significant difference if you were bringing Ashley/Garrus with you, or Liara/Tali for instance. In ME2, it feels like there's little difference if you take companion X or Y...


No map during missions: I suppose for "immersion" reasons and possibly "realism", they decided that you would have no map whatsoever (just a small compass approximately pointing you in the right direction) during a mission. It can be very frustrating at times, because there are zones wiht multiple rooms, stairs left and right etc. and it becomes easy to miss something.

Would it be so detrimental to "immersion" to have access to a local map (with "fog of war" on, of course) ? Anyway, you typically look at a map in between fights, so it can't affect the "action-packed" feel too much. The map could be small, superimposed, I don't care, but "something" would be nice.


These are my main gripes with ME2. (There are others, like the new "scan for resources" system. Ugh!)


Of course, that's my just my 2 cents, for what it's worth. I do realize that I'm only one player in a community of thousands ; and I haven't followed all that much the "gameplay feedback" from the previous game [except for the whole Mako-thing, wich was to the point].

If you made it thus far, thanks for reading

[KillTheLastRomantic]

One word.



****.

[Cainne Chapel]

Now keep in mind this response is coming from someone who has only watched the videos but...



everything to me appears to be better streamlined and in most cases i feel thats a good thing.



The inventory is changed i understand that but the cluster that was the first games inventory needed an overhaul and so far as much as merchants, etc in the first game i barely used them as most drops were superior to what you could buy.



and now witht he added customization of weapons research, etc, loot seems to be...for lack of a better term, moot, as you can research the different upgrades you want to get.



as far as the game being reduced to: talk, move, kill stuff, repeat... i recall that being he formula for pretty much every game, even ME1. if you want to over simplify things.



As to the level up system once again it more or less seems more streamlined in terms of each level does more than ME1, which... I dont care what anyone says NEVER gave you a real sense of progression UNLESS you dumped alot of points into something add to ticks to throw inME1 didnt amount to much on a level up. So i welcome a more streamlined version where i may have less overrall items to dump points into, but hte points i dump into those items matters more.



besides i'm GLAD they got rid of weapon skill progression, I personally feel the game will flow a lot better without it after all as a N7 Marine, shephard should be top quality with whatever form of weaponry he has access too

[Chojin999]

Well I think I'll like the more action oriented movielike experience. But maybe I am not the much of an RPG player. I used to mostly play Shooters and Racers.

But I enjoyed the movielike story style a lot in ME1 aswell, more in ME2 sounds good to me.

The only thing I am wondering is why its so bad if BW tries something else? Do they have to keep to all the rules?
I mean the upgrade options in ME1 were not that good either. you get so many points that almost all bar were full anyway. Your choices didn't really change the end result.

Modifié par Chojin999, 25 janvier 2010 - 09:01 .

[casedawgz]

Stopped reading at "pure fps."

[Speakeasy13]

Before i respond to your opinion, may I ask if you have alrdy played the game? Because if you haven't, then how do you know it's not going to work? If you have, you can at least give your personal analysis justly. But for now all i can say is give it a try, you might even like it better.

[mass_zotz]

OK fine you have some problems with the game but when you said this "I don't care so much about dialogue and storyline," I was just wondering why do you play this game because that is the main point of this game, but I guess thats just the way I see it.

Modifié par mass_zotz, 25 janvier 2010 - 09:01 .

[stylepoints]

I realize I have no clue how to use the quote button, deal with it.
[quote]
a significant interest in this type of game is a (randomp) drop system that can bring enhancements (hate the new upgrade system!). And, in the 1st installment, you could:
[*]
[*]* Change your armor, and that of all your companions, thereby (slightly) modifying their appearance.
* Decide to go for more shields, more armor, more resistance... Basically, you could choose, based on stats, and thus make it more adapted to your style of play
* Insert "modules" into weapons in order to modify their behaviour (less recoil, less overheat, toxic damage...)
* Sell equipment, to make cash, to buy better weapon, armor, upgrades... (in ME2 you wonder why there are merchants at all...)
[quote]
You can still buy armor pieces that give different effects, much more drastic ones at that. Not only that, but you can customize each piece, admittedly there are not very many choices, but it is just as good as the former armor system really.
The "toxic damage" etc was handled by the new talents invested in ammo types, and it is more or less the same. And to be honest I don't miss my guns overheating after taking 2 shots because I didn't train up my shotgun skill enough.
There are merchants in the game to sell you schematics and other things, nothing wrong here. It is actually more realistic this way. Why in some place like the citadel would every vendor/merchant be selling military grade weapons and armor? This is better for a realism standpoint and the old way was just annoying to manage your inventory when you had 200 things that needed to be sold.

[quote]If I want to blow up stuff, I go play an FPS and I don't care so much about dialogue and storyline. Conversely, if I feel like playing a story-based game, I don't expect too much emphasis on frantic combat... and ammo management. I thought Bioware had managed to strike a good balance between both in their previous games (read: the KotOR series, ME1 and even DA:O), but in ME2: bleh.
[*][quote]

[*]I don't get what you are saying here? The story is still fantastic and the combat is just much better. I ran out of ammo for ONE gun TWO times in an entire play through, and that was my pistol. Is picking up clips wearing on your nerves that badly? I enjoy this aspect MUCH more than the "your sniper rifle overheats after more than one shot" mechanic from ME1.
[quote]
No real level up system: Probably for the same reasons as previously mentioned (to spend less time on idle screens like merchants, inventory, character sheet etc.), ME2 does not offer a real level up system. Again, imho, it's step back from the 1st one.[quote]
[*]I'll agree here, just feels like you dont have enough stuff to sink points into anymore, and having to hold points between level ups for the higher end stuff feels wasted.

[quote]Each character now has a limited set of skills, less points to allocate, and less possibilities (only goes up to... 4), oh and no more "weapon-oriented" skills.[quote]
[*]Covered by ammunition skills, which is a much better mechanic. Just because I use an assault rifle for years doesn't mean I'm too stupid to hold a sniper rifle straight.

[quote]Worse, it almost looks like everyone and their cousins has access to the same powers. There's a lot less variety in the "builds" you can make.[quote]
[*]Disagree. I barely played anything besides soldier in ME1. There just wasn't a reason to. Now there are some fantastic UNIQUE perks to the classes that are a lot of fun. See Vanguards and Infiltrators. Although the tech/biotic powers feel a bit watered down.

[quote]The player feels "forced" to follow the track laid out for him.Which is something you could expect from a company that designs game poorly, with limited resources, creativity and sense of "gaming fun" ; but not from Bioware.[quote]
[*]I guess mass effect was different? Or Dragon Age? Bioware hasn't released anything NEAR open ended since what... BG2? They didn't set out to make this a sandbox game. This is a trilogy trying to tell an epic story over several games. Good story driven games will have a main story and you will have to follow it. It is just a matter of how good the side quests/optional stuff is. And ME2 has actual good side quests, even if you cant whip out the mako and go exploring.(and that got old after about a half hour)


[quote]In ME1, the inventory management and the level up system gave a real sense of progression. You went from a rag tag team with basic equipment, to a skilled ensemble with top-notch gear, and yet the missions could still be challenging. [quote]
[*]Disagree. Get yourself the master spectre weapons and steamroll everything. The inventory system was fun in a diablo 2 sort of way, random drops are like that. However it was clunky and tedious in the end. I do however wish there was more talent customization, but they did a great job making the classes at least unique from each other, which was missing in ME1.

[quote]You could also decide to grant more biotic duration for Tali, and more power for Liara (not possible in ME2); more melee power to Urdnox, more shields for yourself, but more armor for Ashley etc. So it really felt like you were custom-building a team of specialists that would work well together.[quote]
[*]Um, none of that is really true, it had very little impact on anything. If you gave up 20 shields for 10 armor you wouldn't even notice. Now something you CAN do is several of your squad get max rank talents that effect your entire group. You really CAN build a cohesive group now with real meaningful benefits and synergy.

[quote]And it would also make a significant difference if you were bringing Ashley/Garrus with you, or Liara/Tali for instance. In ME2, it feels like there's little difference if you take companion X or Y...[quote]
[*]Give one of them group incendiary ammo, and see if you think it makes a difference.


[quote]No map during missions: I suppose for "immersion" reasons and possibly "realism", they decided that you would have no map whatsoever (just a small compass approximately pointing you in the right direction) during a mission. It can be very frustrating at times, because there are zones wiht multiple rooms, stairs left and right etc. and it becomes easy to miss something.[quote]
[*]Never really bothered me, but I guess leaving it in wouldn't have hurt anything either.

[quote]These are my main gripes with ME2. (There are others, like the new "scan for resources" system. Ugh!)[quote]
[*]You mean you preferred rolling around in your mako flagging nodes for NO purpose opposed to making it into a mini game with a purpose?

For the record. I do respect your opinion and I realize everyone wants different things out of the game. For me the combat is MUCH better, it is fun instead of a hindrance. Many of the clunky things were reworked or removed. The storyline and characters are both better or just as good as the first. Different classes FEEL different now, which is huge for me. The one thing I don't like is it feels there is really no diversity within a class. A vanguard will have the same stuff as every other vanguard. It would be nice for ME3 to get some more diversity within classes.

Modifié par stylepoints, 25 janvier 2010 - 09:08 .

[KillTheLastRomantic]

Chojin999 wrote...

Well I think I'll like the more action oriented movielike experience. But maybe I am not the much of an RPG player. I used to mostly play Shooters and Racers.

But I enjoyed the movielike story style a lot in ME1 aswell, more in ME2 sounds good to me.

The only thing I am wondering is why its so bad if BW tries something else? Do they have to keep to all the rules?
I mean the upgrade options in ME1 were not that good either. you get so many points that almost all bar were full anyway. Your choices didn't really change the end result.

Bioware are obviously free to try new things but mass effect was an rpg, so returning fans will expect the sequel to be an rpg. Hence potential dissappointment if the rpg elements turn out to be lacking.

[Terror_K]

You seem to be confirming a lot of my fears... and then some. The more I read about this game, the more I fear I'll just regret purchasing it, regret all those hours of playthroughs and regret getting into the IP in the first place. It seems like some bad dream... like BioWare have been replaced by some newer development company who just want to soup it all up for the younger crowd and have taken out most of the stuff that made the original great. I used to be angry and concerned, but now I'm starting to feel saddened and helpless.

[JMOR]

While I agree that some of the stuff seems to a little to "streamlined", I think you're taking things a bit to far with some of the statements you made. To be fair, I've only seen live streams and have not played the game so by no means am I an expert in the game mechanics.
No inventory

You get more control over your armor then you could possibly believe and it exceeds what ME1 delivered by a laughably high margin. While it is true that squadmates armor is cannot be swapped out for different types with various stats you can pick from a few "outfits" that look different.

You can still decide to go for more shields, although I don't know about resistance or armor. Instead of finding a mod that made shields go up by +50 you now research the upgrades which give similar bonuses, but to the squad as whole.

The mods in the first one were very flawed and led to infinite soamming of both rounds and powers. Not to mention you either found a mod that only stayed relevent for 10 minutes or you found one that made all other mods worthless so either way it was apointless system.

By level 40 you could easily have enough credits that it made the currency mechanic of ME pointless. And as stated earlier, the mods were pointless or almighty so buying them was either a waste or it made all other purchases pointless. I haven't seen to many shops in ME2, but the ones I've seen sold some pretty useful things so I'm not sure why you think they're worthless.

No real level up system

The skill system has been made so it gives you the meat of that skill tree w/o the fat of +1 duration or +2% damage. It's essentially been made into the little nods that you see every few points in ME1 that actually give castable skills. You waste less points on (extremely) minor upgrades and the get the good stuff you're trying to get in the first place basically.

While it is true that some characters share talents I'd imagine this is so you can change characters w/o suffering penalties for doing so. There are still plenty of builds you could choose in ME2. With the evolution system they have in place for the higher level skills, you could have dozens of variations within a class that are meaningful and not just +4% accuracy or something to that tune.

Unfortuanately I don't know enough of the upgrades to armor systems to discuss the rest of this segment.

No map during missions

I don't recall ME1 having an on-screen map either, but it really wasn't that hard to navigate around. I have seen the ME2 map and it looks much better overall and is much easier to user to get around. It's accessed through the pause screen same as the ME1 map.

Modifié par JMOR, 25 janvier 2010 - 09:17 .

[Peer of the Empire]

I'm glad they purportedly improved the combat, although it wasn't bad in ME1.  The squad customization as you describe it is a regression.  Regarding inventory however not everyone wants to go around Aspergically collecting random junk.

As far as RPG goes, there is only the illusion of less; while that may count for something, as far as I can tell there is just less filling in of the little squares.  Shephard is a trained soldier and it makes no sense for him to be utterly lacking in basic combat skills nor for the Systems Alliance to equip its soldiers in rags.

Modifié par Peer of the Empire, 25 janvier 2010 - 09:42 .

[stylepoints]

For people that are crying about the sky falling. All of the RPG elements are here and better than before. Honestly go for it. Not only are the story and sidequests fantastic. The character interactions are deeper, and the character makes choices. If RPG means "I want to pick up shiny armor off every geth corpse" then you are bound to hate it. The only thing dumbed down from the last one Is there are less things to spend talent points on. Everything else has been improved... substantially.

Oh I also forgot. Combat has gained quite a bit more depth with the shielding mechanics and effectiveness vs. barriers/armor/health/organic/synthetic. You actually need to use skills/team members together to take down the harder bosses. Large improvement there.

Modifié par stylepoints, 25 janvier 2010 - 09:20 .

[Lonely_Fat_Guy]

did you even played the game?

[stylepoints]

My roommate has it on the xbox, I've been playing it on/off for a couple days now and watching him.

[SurfaceBeneath]

OP didn't actually play the game. They are completely wrong about the leveling system. I mean, seriously, objectively wrong.

[Matterialize]

Yeah, gonna have to disagree with your opinion.

On the weapons - ammo powers aside, upgrades like recoil and rate of fire and so on, those are still reflected in the different weapons you can use. For example, if you want something that has a faster rate of fire than a pistol, you don't use a pistol with a RoF mod - you just pull out your SMG. And because the weapon talent trees are gone (or, more accurately, automatically maxed for you) you don't need to worry about switching to a weapon type you're not trained in. Why pull out a pistol that acts like a machine gun, when you can just pull out your machine gun?

As JMOR said about the level up system, the same sort of applies to weapons as well. Instead of having a myriad of weapons that differ from eachother in tiny, tiny negligible increments, you have defined weapon types that clearly perform different from one another. For example, you can choose a pistol with a moderate clip size and moderate damage, or you can take the pistol that packs a huge punch but doesn't give you as much ammo to work with. They're more like sidegrades in that regard, rather than upgrades. Weapons subtypes are now clearly defined to suit different playstyles as much as the main weapon categories are, instead of continually throwing out your pistol over and over again whenever you find a new one with a slightly higher damage value.

Thinking back, I don't remember enjoying that micromanagement. It wasn't particularly tedious or bad, it just seems unnecessary. I think this is a welcome change.

Modifié par Matterialize, 25 janvier 2010 - 09:25 .

[stylepoints]

One thing that did make me sad is I didn't feel as tough as I did towards the end of ME1. I was playing a vanguard and I couldn't just use my biotic charge like an idiot or I would get fried pretty quickly.

[DarkSpiral]

I try to keep an open mind when it comes to games that are trying something new. And Bioware has been very upfront about the style they were aiming for with ME2. So, if your problem is that you didn't read the reviews and information released by Bioware (perhaps deliberately, I know many people want to remain unspoiled) and thus your expectations differed drastically from the result, well, I'm afraid everything you posted is old news to people that have been snapping up new info as fast as it was provided.



If you did know about the changes being made, and simply don't like them, then that of course is your gods-granted right, and I salute you. ^.-



However, I genuinely feel that the lack of an inventory system, and the addition of faster paced combat is anything but detrimental to the RPG experience. Can you roleplay Shepard is several different ways? You could in ME1. There were many, many situations where you could pick not simply the "good" or "evil" response, but also three other responses that fell somewhere in-between, If THAT is missing, then I'll definitely be disappointed.

[DarkSpiral]

stylepoints wrote...

One thing that did make me sad is I didn't feel as tough as I did towards the end of ME1. I was playing a vanguard and I couldn't just use my biotic charge like an idiot or I would get fried pretty quickly.

*laugh*

Tough?  I was (nearly) invincible towards the end of ME1, and I played on Insanity.

If the combat is a bit more challenging (or even a LOT more challenging), so much the better, imo.

[stylepoints]

Dont worry darkspiral, the true RPG elements are alive and well. And more fun to boot, especially if you enjoy being a jerk . There are also some REALLY big choices that will obviously alter ME3 in big ways, you can definitely feel the gravity of some of the choices you have to make, and they aren't all that easy. For the first time in my entire gaming career, I took a break to debate on what I was going to do during a game. That impresses me.

EDIT: It isn't very difficult on normal, but there is more tact involved in some of the combat, and you arent invulnerable anymore. I actually used my teammates' abilities!

Modifié par stylepoints, 25 janvier 2010 - 09:32 .

[DarkSpiral]

*twiddles the tips of his fingers in cheesy comic villian style*



Exxxxxcellent.