Guest_SwobyJ_*
Borschtbeet wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
Borschtbeet wrote...
If you do not like this game it means you're ghey.
But I'm gay.
I mean ghey in the perjorative sense, not necessarily in the male buttsxx0rz terminology although I wouldn't be surprised if the OP likes that too.
I kid.
Lonely_Fat_Guy wrote...
handheld wrote...
Handheld can also tell you from experience that samara is actually the best example of an anti hero as she does whatever is necessary to kill the bad guys even if that means removing the good guys. Handheld however thinks she does skirt the line very closely to it chaotic neutral.
samara gleee
she own liara everyday cant wait to roamnce her
That's just a flaw with the conversation system on Bioware's part, not the renegade/paragon definitions.stylepoints wrote...
RIGHT. mordin IS a renegade. The problem is, Mordin is nice to people, generally a caring person. If he were the player character he would be split 50/50. The problem is in the game you have to be just an absolute dick to EVERYONE if you want to get enough "renegade points" to pass the tests toward the end. Your crew, your old friends, you just have to be a heartless ******. They should just name it "jerk points" and "doormat points" and it would be much more accurate.
The game doesn't tell that you are being a jerk for good reasons, or being good for selfish reasons. Which kinda detracts. This turned into a giant debate but honestly it didn't impact me in the slightest while playing. Just fun to discuss.
) I'm renegade because I make the really important decisions renegade-style. I don't subscribe to the idea that being a jerk to everyone is an effective means to any end. And guess what? I ended up being almost full renegade on the meter, even though I was nice to people.
Guest_SwobyJ_*
DarkSpiral wrote...
Lonely_Fat_Guy wrote...
handheld wrote...
Handheld can also tell you from experience that samara is actually the best example of an anti hero as she does whatever is necessary to kill the bad guys even if that means removing the good guys. Handheld however thinks she does skirt the line very closely to it chaotic neutral.
samara gleee
she own liara everyday cant wait to roamnce her
Uh...not to skew the thread off to one side or anything, but you can't romance Samara. It's been a source of outrage on the boards on several occasions.
Modifié par handheld, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:34 .
SwobyJ wrote...
LOL, and its the one omission of a romance that I actually support. If Samara was romancable, even the asari lovers may jump ship fast from Liara. (especially seeing how she acts in ME2)
Marlina wrote...
Both thinks the means justify the ends: That's what renegade is all about. It doesn't matter what that "end" is.handheld wrote...
Handheld doesnt think thats entirely true after having played the game for awhile Handheld knows that mordin puts whats good above anything else however he will do what is necessary to achieve whats good even if that means killing some mercs or bad people.
The renegade on the other hand Handheld knows indiscriminantly kills simply as a means to an end. and to ge the job done which mordin does not.
And for the record, most of the renegade decisions Shepard makes are also "for the greater good". She's doing it because it's her job, yes, but that job happens to be to safeguard the entire galaxy. If that's not a just cause, then I don't know what is.
People need to stop thinking that renegade = evil and paragon = good. It's more like: renegade = cynical but logical, paragon = good-natured but naive. Paragon are also gamblers and optimists, while renegades are realists and safers.
SurfaceBeneath wrote...
Terror, you need to stop mentioning Michael Bay. I got forced in to watching Transformers 2 and it was the most god-awful movie going experience of my life.
Easily the worst movie of 2009 for me.
Modifié par DarkSpiral, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:19 .
Well, I'm not gonna go into an anti-D&D alignment argument here, but it's very flawed. (The system, that is, not necessarily your guesswork. ;] )handheld wrote...
if handheld had to put the characters into DND personality types it would be like this.
Miranda= Neutral good (not entirely good however she is not above killing if she is betrayed)
Samara= Chaotic good (she does whatever is necessary to rid the world of evil even if she has to fight the good guys to do it)
Mordin= Chaotic Good (does whats right while at the same time not afraid to do whats wrong in order to accomplish whats right)
Jacob= Neutral good (hes a good guy through and through however he is not a goody two shoes)
Thane= Neutral/ Chaotic neutral (Handheld says this because he is an assasin through and through but also feels he has to remove bad people in his own way)
Grunt= Nuetral Chaotic (while grunt isnt a good guy he isnt a bad guy either he simply kills because its the only thing he knows how to do and he does it well Handheld thinks he could very easily be skirting the bounds of being a barbarian like character)
Jack= Neutral chaotic ( Handheld thinks she is very similar to grunt Handheld cannot say more in a way that would not be a spoiler.
Tali= Neutral Good? (Handheld is not entirely sure how to sum up her character shes not entirely the good guy but shes nowhere near the bad guy Handheld thinks neutral good suits her just fine.
Handheld asks if he has forgotten any one to please let him know.
Joker= A S S CLOWN (Handheld can think of no other way to describe him)
handheld wrote...
Tali= Neutral Good? (Handheld is not entirely sure how to sum up her character shes not entirely the good guy but shes nowhere near the bad guy Handheld thinks neutral good suits her just fine.
Modifié par stylepoints, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:20 .
SurfaceBeneath wrote...
Handheld, I think Samara is actually closer to Lawful Good/Neutral.
Remember that Lawful means you follow a strong code. It doesn't matter if it's a legal code or a personal one, as long as they stick to that code as much as they are humanly (or alienly) possible, they are Lawful.
Terror_K wrote...
handheld wrote...
Tali= Neutral Good? (Handheld is not entirely sure how to sum up her character shes not entirely the good guy but shes nowhere near the bad guy Handheld thinks neutral good suits her just fine.
I've always tended to draw parallels between Tali and Jean Luc Picard of Star Trek: TNG fame. She's almost entirely lawful and morally good, but when it comes to The Geth it all goes out the window because of what they are, ala The Borg with Picard.
Modifié par DarkSpiral, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:21 .
Well, then Bioware has really botched the whole idea of renegade, if it's just LOL IMMA KILL EVERYONE I MEET, THAT WILL SURELY HELP!handheld wrote...
Handheld thinks that your assumptions of renegade being cynical and logical are false.
Handheld doesnt think a logical person would kill every single person merc in the building as by doing so one could lose the option of learning more information and sometimes the means dont always justify the means.
Handheld thinks this is the perfect time to use this example.
Handheld knows all the forumites have seen the interrupt action that occurs when you push the merc out of the window. Handheld decided to do this the paragon way and Handheld recieved way more information than if he would have pushed the merc out the window information that was critical to the mission where as the renegade way is to push them out the window. Handheld doesnt think thats logic at all.
Handheld knows renegade is not evil however renegade is anything but logical renegade is more of killing whoever gets in the way to get the mission done. While as paragon is more save everyone you can while doing as much good as possible.
Handheld thinks both have there flaws and both have there ups.
Marlina wrote...
Well, then Bioware has really botched the whole idea of renegade, if it's just LOL IMMA KILL EVERYONE I MEET, THAT WILL SURELY HELP!handheld wrote...
Handheld thinks that your assumptions of renegade being cynical and logical are false.
Handheld doesnt think a logical person would kill every single person merc in the building as by doing so one could lose the option of learning more information and sometimes the means dont always justify the means.
Handheld thinks this is the perfect time to use this example.
Handheld knows all the forumites have seen the interrupt action that occurs when you push the merc out of the window. Handheld decided to do this the paragon way and Handheld recieved way more information than if he would have pushed the merc out the window information that was critical to the mission where as the renegade way is to push them out the window. Handheld doesnt think thats logic at all.
Handheld knows renegade is not evil however renegade is anything but logical renegade is more of killing whoever gets in the way to get the mission done. While as paragon is more save everyone you can while doing as much good as possible.
Handheld thinks both have there flaws and both have there ups.
The devs have numerous times stated that renegade = ends justify the means. Whether or not they have failed implementing it in such a way isn't really that important in this discussion. Like, is punching a reporter a renegade act? I disagree, because it doesn't accomplish anything, aside from making you look like an ass. The game still awards you with renegade points for doing this. A failing on Bioware's part, I would argue.
handheld wrote...
Handheld must respectfully decline Handhelds fellow forumite by way of the emo tribe bonding as Handheld truly believes that she is indeed Chaotic good as she is willing to for example kill the good guys if they hinder her from getting the bad guys if Handheld absolutely had to Handheld would say she is more Chaotic good/ Chaotic neutral.
Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:32 .
SurfaceBeneath wrote...
handheld wrote...
Handheld must respectfully decline Handhelds fellow forumite by way of the emo tribe bonding as Handheld truly believes that she is indeed Chaotic good as she is willing to for example kill the good guys if they hinder her from getting the bad guys if Handheld absolutely had to Handheld would say she is more Chaotic good/ Chaotic neutral.
Then it sounds like she is Lawful Neutral to me. Committed to the most good as dictated through her rigid personal code, even if it means harming others. More concerned with the overall good and stability of the world than the personal happiness of those few that might come in her way.
To be chaotic, you really have to be sort of inconsistent and do things randomly.
Of course, your typical DnD Alignment is heavily up to interpretation I suppose. So consider this another interpretation.
Don't you see? Ends justify the means is supposed to be logical. As long as it furthers your goal, any method is acceptable. It's how a robot would think. I think they're gonna go into this in ME3, with Shepard being like part-robot now and everything. It's be a brilliant end to the series: Do the "logical", cold choice, like a machine (like a reaper) or do the humane and "illogical" choice. (What that choice would be.. it could be anything, but would have to set the two alignments far apart, with good arguments being made for both.) You can see they're already going for such an angle with Legion.handheld wrote...
Handheld thinks his example of killing whoever tries to hinder him to get the mission done is a perfect example of the means justify the ends however its not entirely logical to kill everything that tries to stop you from your mission.
Handheld would use interrogation as an example as you do whatever you can to get the information you need and sometimes that takes a bit of threatening and bluffing. Handheld thinks that is like a renegade is it not? The ends justify the means yes?
Modifié par SurfaceBeneath, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:39 .
handheld wrote...
Handheld will concede to this as this probably explains it better. Handheld is glad that his forumite companion by way of the emo tribe bonding has shown Handheld the error of his post and Handheld shall correct it immediatly.
Marlina wrote...
Don't you see? Ends justify the means is supposed to be logical. As long as it furthers your goal, any method is acceptable. It's how a robot would think. I think they're gonna go into this in ME3, with Shepard being like part-robot now and everything. It's be a brilliant end to the series: Do the "logical", cold choice, like a machine (like a reaper) or do the humane and "illogical" choice. (What that choice would be.. it could be anything, but would have to set the two alignments far apart, with good arguments being made for both.) You can see they're already going for such an angle with Legion.handheld wrote...
Handheld thinks his example of killing whoever tries to hinder him to get the mission done is a perfect example of the means justify the ends however its not entirely logical to kill everything that tries to stop you from your mission.
Handheld would use interrogation as an example as you do whatever you can to get the information you need and sometimes that takes a bit of threatening and bluffing. Handheld thinks that is like a renegade is it not? The ends justify the means yes?
My point is: Renegade is more like a robot, no emotions, only logic. If you ask a machine to do something, it will do it, regardless of the consequences, as long as it's duty is fulfilled. This is the renegade way.
Paragon is the more human, the more emotional way of dealing with things, since you base your decisions on doing "the right thing".
Anyway, I think they should include two new meters: Jerk and Saint. Paragon = preachy, renegade = logical, jerk = negative emotions, saint = positive emotions.
Modifié par handheld, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:43 .
Like I said, the D&D alignment system is seriously flawed. It only works because good and evil are objective terms in that universe. (Some creatures are naturally evil, BORN evil.) It just doesn't work in a more realistic scenario.SurfaceBeneath wrote...
Actually the Mass Effect alignment system pretty much translates to this:
Paragon: Lawful Good
Renegade: Neutral Jerkwad
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