180 réponses à ce sujet

[Marlina]

handheld wrote...

Handheld thinks yes a renegade gets the job done no matter what.

handheld also thinks no the renegade is not logical.

Handheld knows a machine would try to get as much info on its target as possible even if it means shooting a leg  or removing a hand where as a renegade would just simply ask a question if they didnt get the answer then just flat out shoot them in the face.

Handheld thinks that paragons are goody two shoes and renegades are bloodthrirsty.

Handheld also thinks that renegades lend better to the shoot first asks questions later scenario.

That's my point, bioware obviously botched it if they just went with the idea that renegades are just these idiots running around killing people indiscriminately. They go against their own definitions then. Torturing for information would be a renegade act, I don't see what shooting him in the face would accomplish. 

[Terror_K]

I'm actually curious as to how it's going to treat the actions of my main Paragon Femshep. She's put up with a lot of crap from Cerberus due to her background and her actions in ME1, and now she's being forced to work with them. Will she get Renegade points or Paragon ones each time she sasses back TIM and chooses the more reluctant options, etc?

[SmilingMirror]

All nerds, please leave and take your D&D morality systems else where. thank you.

Anyways, there are actually MORE powers than ME1, but you have to do alot of unlocking which makes the custimization from the start really slow.

Loot arguement is useless like others have said, your loot is basically the research center. Some might like this others won't.

Modifié par SmilingMirror, 25 janvier 2010 - 11:56 .

[SurfaceBeneath]

Marlina wrote...

Like I said, the D&D alignment system is seriously flawed. It only works because good and evil are objective terms in that universe. (Some creatures are naturally evil, BORN evil.) It just doesn't work in a more realistic scenario. 

Well... it's not "flawed" so much in that it was never meant to be utilized outside its own various settings. Some of those settings use alignment exceedingly well even (Planescape for instance) in which the alignment represents higher ideals.

But really, using the alignment system for anything beyond DnD is merely silly game for silly internet peoples like us."

Of course, Bioware has screwed this up somewhat, by giving renegade points for being a dick. 

I agree entirely. Renegade really needs to have some of the more "dickwad just because" elements cut out of it. Because as it is currently it's, "Do what's best for the mission without regard to higher ideals... but ABUSE YOUR POWER AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FOR THE HELL OF IT."

[SurfaceBeneath]

Terror_K wrote...

I'm actually curious as to how it's going to treat the actions of my main Paragon Femshep. She's put up with a lot of crap from Cerberus due to her background and her actions in ME1, and now she's being forced to work with them. Will she get Renegade points or Paragon ones each time she sasses back TIM and chooses the more reluctant options, etc?

As you play through the game, you'll learn that Cerberus is not what it appears to be at first glance. There's a ton of grey area here and even a completely Paragon player will find themselves agreeing with Cerberus on several occassions even as they seriously disagree with others.

[handheld]

Marlina wrote...

handheld wrote...

Handheld thinks yes a renegade gets the job done no matter what.

handheld also thinks no the renegade is not logical.

Handheld knows a machine would try to get as much info on its target as possible even if it means shooting a leg  or removing a hand where as a renegade would just simply ask a question if they didnt get the answer then just flat out shoot them in the face.

Handheld thinks that paragons are goody two shoes and renegades are bloodthrirsty.

Handheld also thinks that renegades lend better to the shoot first asks questions later scenario.

That's my point, bioware obviously botched it if they just went with the idea that renegades are just these idiots running around killing people indiscriminately. They go against their own definitions then. Torturing for information would be a renegade act, I don't see what shooting him in the face would accomplish. 

Handheld does agree with this and Handheld also agrees with his forumite companion by way of the emo tribe bonding surface beneath the alignments were not meant to be used as describing other game universes however handheld never did say whether the renegade does shoot him in the face or not Handheld was just using that as an example Handheld does know the renegade interrupts are more like angry GTFOMWOYD (Get the F*** outta  my way or you die) interrupts However not all of them are like this.

[Marlina]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I agree entirely. Renegade really needs to have some of the more "dickwad just because" elements cut out of it. Because as it is currently it's, "Do what's best for the mission without regard to higher ideals... but ABUSE YOUR POWER AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FOR THE HELL OF IT."

Exactly.
Also, being xenophobic is supposedly renegade! I hated this, because my Shepard is one hell of a renegade, but STILL believes that the council races must work together in order to survive against the reapers. It annoyed me to no end that Udina was all LOL, U'RE HATIN ON XENOS FOR REALS when I wanted a multi-racial council. He basically told me "You say that you want aliens on the council, but by virtue of being renegade, you MUST hate aliens, so must be lying!"

[handheld]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

I'm actually curious as to how it's going to treat the actions of my main Paragon Femshep. She's put up with a lot of crap from Cerberus due to her background and her actions in ME1, and now she's being forced to work with them. Will she get Renegade points or Paragon ones each time she sasses back TIM and chooses the more reluctant options, etc?

As you play through the game, you'll learn that Cerberus is not what it appears to be at first glance. There's a ton of grey area here and even a completely Paragon player will find themselves agreeing with Cerberus on several occassions even as they seriously disagree with others.

Handheld agrees with this completely Handheld normally likes being a pure paragon and Handheld figured he would absolutely detest working with cerberus. However handheld can absolutely say with confidence that handheld has actually second guessed his stance on cerberus and the people within it (not all of them) but most of them. Handheld thinks bioware did an excellent job of making the characters on the ship believable and interesting to the point where Handheld no longer absolutelu detests Cerberus.

[Zulu_DFA]

Marlina wrote...
Like I said, the D&D alignment system is seriously flawed. It only works because good and evil are objective terms in that universe. (Some creatures are naturally evil, BORN evil.) It just doesn't work in a more realistic scenario. 

Paragon = doing what you feel is "right", not compromising your ideals for the mission.
Renegade = doing what you have to, because the mission is more important than your ideals. 

Of course, Bioware has screwed this up somewhat, by giving renegade points for being a dick. 

What if someone's ideal / code is "Accomplish the mission at all costs"?

I mean paragons' ideals / codes / moral / "what is right" things pretty much lean towards conventiuonal morality systems, like Christianity. which is quite narrow a segment of idealism.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 25 janvier 2010 - 12:02 .

[Murmillos]

Gaaaa... I can not read Handhelds post. I get so annoyed by the first word. HATE HATE HATE... I need to create a firefox mod that changes all words "Handheld" into "fluffy bunny"

[Marlina]

Well, then I think we're all in agreement: Renegade should be less ****-ish, since that's not the "true" renegade way.

Of course, Bioware has the final say in this, but we can still hope, at least for ME3. I think my theory about renegade = logical machines/reapers, paragon = human values is pretty neat, if I may say so myself

[handheld]

Marlina wrote...

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

I agree entirely. Renegade really needs to have some of the more "dickwad just because" elements cut out of it. Because as it is currently it's, "Do what's best for the mission without regard to higher ideals... but ABUSE YOUR POWER AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE FOR THE HELL OF IT."

Exactly.
Also, being xenophobic is supposedly renegade! I hated this, because my Shepard is one hell of a renegade, but STILL believes that the council races must work together in order to survive against the reapers. It annoyed me to no end that Udina was all LOL, U'RE HATIN ON XENOS FOR REALS when I wanted a multi-racial council. He basically told me "You say that you want aliens on the council, but by virtue of being renegade, you MUST hate aliens, so must be lying!"

Handheld thinks that all the people who chose UDINA are going to be in for an unhappy suprise as Handheld played on the default new character with no Imports and udina is the choice for that. Handheld can not say He is happy with the way udina is running things.

Modifié par handheld, 25 janvier 2010 - 12:00 .

[Marlina]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

What is someone's ideal / code is "Accomplish the mission at all costs"?

I mean paragons' ideals / codes / moral / "what is right" things pretty much lean towards conventiuonal morality systems, likу Christianity. which is quite narrow a segment of idealism.

Yeah, I agree with you. I only used those expression for simplicity's sake. Paragons are more emotional. They let their feelings get in the way of the mission, a mission which is actually for the greater good.
I think it's more like renegade = utilitarianism, while paragon = moral absolutism.

Modifié par Marlina, 25 janvier 2010 - 12:04 .

[Marlina]

handheld wrote...

Handheld thinks that all the people who chose UDINA are going to be in for an unhappy suprise as Handheld played on the default new character with no Imports and udina is the choice for that. Handheld can not say He is happy with the way udina is running things.

I picked Udina because he's funny and he's one of those I just love to hate. And he's the more logical choice.
Besides, I really hated Anderson. He was cool when he helped me out with the Normandy, but otherwise he was a bore. 

[handheld]

Marlina wrote...

handheld wrote...

Handheld thinks that all the people who chose UDINA are going to be in for an unhappy suprise as Handheld played on the default new character with no Imports and udina is the choice for that. Handheld can not say He is happy with the way udina is running things.

I picked Udina because he's funny and he's one of those I just love to hate. And he's the more logical choice.
Besides, I really hated Anderson. He was cool when he helped me out with the Normandy, but otherwise he was a bore. 

Handheld can tell you your not going to be to happy with his choices Handheld will only say he just about alienates all of the aliens (Handheld has made a pun) and thats all Handheld will say.

Needless to say handheld thinks that those who chose udina can expect all of the aliens to not be so.....cooperative.

[Marlina]

handheld wrote...

Handheld can tell you your not going to be to happy with his choices Handheld will only say he just about alienates all of the aliens (Handheld has made a pun) and thats all Handheld will say.

Needless to say handheld thinks that those who chose udina can expect all of the aliens to not be so.....cooperative.

Have you seen Anderson in action though? I'm not so sure it'll be so different with him. 

[Zulu_DFA]

Marlina wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

What is someone's ideal / code is "Accomplish the mission at all costs"?

I mean paragons' ideals / codes / moral / "what is right" things pretty much lean towards conventiuonal morality systems, likу Christianity. which is quite narrow a segment of idealism.

Yeah, I agree with you. I only used those expression for simplicity's sake. Paragons are more emotional. They let their feelings get in the way of the mission, a mission which is actually for the greater good.
I think it's more like renegade = utilitarianism, while paragon = moral absolutism.

May be that's the point. 100% renegade also let their *bad* feelings get in the way of the mission. And all the paragon/renegade system is not about morality, but about emotions. And emotionless Shepards land it right on the zero mark. For example, my perfectly *renegade* Shepard can't actually get the "Lord Darrius" mission because at some early point he makes a logical decision that prevents a certain squadmate situation on planet Virmire from happening, and therefore he can't earn enough renegade points by the time it's logically too late to go for any sidequests.

[handheld]

Marlina wrote...

handheld wrote...

Handheld can tell you your not going to be to happy with his choices Handheld will only say he just about alienates all of the aliens (Handheld has made a pun) and thats all Handheld will say.

Needless to say handheld thinks that those who chose udina can expect all of the aliens to not be so.....cooperative.

Have you seen Anderson in action though? I'm not so sure it'll be so different with him. 

Handheld thinks you does Haz a point  Handheld does however think it cant be as bad as choosing a Full human ruled council with Udina at the head Handheld feels sorry for any who have picked that choice as Handheld hates it.

Handheld does think it might be a bit different with a human/alien council though even with Udina.

[SerenityRebirth]

I guess I'm a fan of the streamlined feeling they have put forth. And no I'm not a hardcore fps or shooter fan. I'm a HUGE rpg fan (esp. RPG's) but ME 2 does seem like it is meant to be more of a shooter then typical RPG. Story-driven shooter maybe?



Don't flame me please! ;

[Marlina]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

May be that's the point. 100% renegade also let their *bad* feelings get in the way of the mission. And all the paragon/renegade system is not about morality, but about emotions. And emotionless Shepards land it right on the zero mark. For example, my perfectly *renegade* Shepard can't actually get the "Lord Darrius" mission because at some early point he makes a logical decision that prevents a certain squadmate situation on planet Virmire from happening, and therefore he can't earn enough renegade points by the time it's logically too late to go for any sidequests.

Wow... Well, that's actually very interesting, and a possibility I haven't thought of yet. 
...it does make for a kinda boring experience though, since entirely neutral is so... bland. And there are certain times you MUST make a choice. (Hmm, perhaps THAT'S why the "neutral" option on the council decision was what it was)
You know what, that actually makes a lot of sense. Still, kinda sucks that you lose out on conversation options, and especially persuasion options if you don't swing either way. And there's still the case about the devs stating that renegades = ends justify the means, etc.

I dunno, but it made me think.

[Zulu_DFA]

handheld wrote...

Handheld thinks that all the people who chose UDINA are going to be in for an unhappy suprise as Handheld played on the default new character with no Imports and udina is the choice for that. Handheld can not say He is happy with the way udina is running things.

"Lay it on me, Joker. I love bad news." ©

[Aradace]

I dont care what it is....RPG...TPS...Case in point, it should be a great game in general. And I like great games regardless of their genre. Unless of course that genre is sports...I hate sports games...but thats neither here nor there. Case in point is, why does it matter what "genre" ME2 is? As long as you go into it with an open mind, you're going to probably like the game, enough said.

[handheld]

Marlina wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

May be that's the point. 100% renegade also let their *bad* feelings get in the way of the mission. And all the paragon/renegade system is not about morality, but about emotions. And emotionless Shepards land it right on the zero mark. For example, my perfectly *renegade* Shepard can't actually get the "Lord Darrius" mission because at some early point he makes a logical decision that prevents a certain squadmate situation on planet Virmire from happening, and therefore he can't earn enough renegade points by the time it's logically too late to go for any sidequests.

Wow... Well, that's actually very interesting, and a possibility I haven't thought of yet. 
...it does make for a kinda boring experience though, since entirely neutral is so... bland. And there are certain times you MUST make a choice. (Hmm, perhaps THAT'S why the "neutral" option on the council decision was what it was)
You know what, that actually makes a lot of sense. Still, kinda sucks that you lose out on conversation options, and especially persuasion options if you don't swing either way. And there's still the case about the devs stating that renegades = ends justify the means, etc.

I dunno, but it made me think.

Handheld also thinks that Neutral could also be playing as a paragade or renegon. Handheld knows Neutral doesnt mean you have to ignore paragon and renegade choices but that you have to make the right choices where they fit such as helping a sick man or killing a murderer instead of taking him in.

[Zulu_DFA]

Marlina wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

May be that's the point. 100% renegade also let their *bad* feelings get in the way of the mission. And all the paragon/renegade system is not about morality, but about emotions. And emotionless Shepards land it right on the zero mark. For example, my perfectly *renegade* Shepard can't actually get the "Lord Darrius" mission because at some early point he makes a logical decision that prevents a certain squadmate situation on planet Virmire from happening, and therefore he can't earn enough renegade points by the time it's logically too late to go for any sidequests.

Wow... Well, that's actually very interesting, and a possibility I haven't thought of yet. 
...it does make for a kinda boring experience though, since entirely neutral is so... bland. And there are certain times you MUST make a choice. (Hmm, perhaps THAT'S why the "neutral" option on the council decision was what it was)
You know what, that actually makes a lot of sense. Still, kinda sucks that you lose out on conversation options, and especially persuasion options if you don't swing either way. And there's still the case about the devs stating that renegades = ends justify the means, etc.

I dunno, but it made me think.

Yes, looks like ME2 is even more punishing of the emotionlessness and moral scepticism, than ME1. Which is just another disappointment for me.