280 réponses à ce sujet

[Kurakitty]

My whole thing against respecing on an immersion level is that what respecing boils down to is forgetting what you already learned and then learning something else. I tend to find it hard to forget something on demand and when I do forget something its not like some space in my head freed up and I can just insert what ever handy ideas I want into my head.



While that may be what the leveling process seems like, that is only out of a need to allow the game to be diversified. The leveling process is like the time of culmination and you tell the game what your character has been studying and now you final bear the fruits and can now cast said new spell or wield your 2hander in a new fashion.



If they did offer respecing there should be steep costs and limits like. You cant forget a tier 1 skill and if you forget a tier 2, 3, or 4 skill you can only put them into abilities of a tier less so if you forget a tier 4 you could only buy tier 1-3 with that point now. This way you really need to decide if you want to get a certain tree of abilities and can never back out of it completly

[FlintlockJazz]

cipher86 wrote...

I wouldn't dare suggest this game is
similar to WoW in terms of story/characters etc. But the levelup
system, some of the combat system, the way the currency works, some of
the quests, these things remind me VERY much of WoW. Before I get
flamed for thinking WoW "invented" these systems, I don't, but during
the first few hours of the game, I had an intense feeling of deja vu. A
lot of it just feels like WoW.

But the feeling is where it ends.
I did not care for WoW because yes, the grind, but furthermore it had
no story, the music was bland, I could go on. This game is miles ahead
of WoW, and I am not trying to dilute it by comparing it directly. Just
noticing a few KEY similarities, that's all.

That's because both games are ROLEPLAY games, and so are based on certain fundamental requirements.  Doesn't mean that respecing should be incorporated in all roleplay games.

MortalFoil wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

I think it's strange how some folks are decrying the DLC NPCs as "breaking immersion," and here's other folks asking for options to break immersion so they can re-spec. Mom, Dad, don't make me choose! I love you both equally!

It's simple, really. Options by themselves NEVER break immersion. Immersion is only "broken" if you choose to use them. And many people, like myself, don't have such mental insuffiencies that we can't deeply immerse ourselves in a game where the main character can respec. Wow.

Ignoring the sad attempt to be offensive to people with the 'mental insufficiencies' bit, adding in options CAN mess up the game.  By adding in respecs the developers will need to change the difficulty as otherwise it will make the game too easy for those who respec to min/max their characters for the current situation, which then means that those who don't want to respec will get penalised.  'Options' always change the game, and sometimes they are unwarranted.  This is a single player game, where there won't a 'flavour of the month' game or respecs or even the time investment required like in MMOs, so please, just leave us this one game please?

[Sordal]

saying that this game is like wow is control wise isnt true, cause theres plenty of other rpgs that do the same thing control wise, some of which have become wow.

[Titanmike357]

cipher86 wrote...

DOODLET0N wrote...

A respec option would take away value from the game. You're supposed to make tactical and well thought out decisions on character development. If you don't like it, just start again and hopefully you aren't too far into the story.

Couldn't I tactically plan to be a certain type of fighter up until a certain point, and then tactically decide to respec at a certain point to better suit my new group/upcoming battle?

Perhaps specializations could not be unlearned, but the basic trees (like Two-Handed) could be unlearned and have the points spent elsewhere.

I'm not sure if there is a purpose to debating though, aside from simply doing it - it is done, and I don't foresee Bioware making such a change anytime soon.

no, well yes, and no.

I can tell you from spending time wearing my chain and fighting S&S, that switching to a two hander is much, much harder than you think, or going from two hander to S&S is not as easy as you may think.

Honeslty, its easyer to fight two weapons if you are used to S&S because you can use the off hand as a blocker that also have more attack options than a shield.

there are little ins and outs that you learn from using a style that you would not learn other wise, such as when to use a shield to bash Vs simplying blocking.

I think the game does a great job of showing this, with the way the skill trees are setup.

Using a two handed sword and not getting killed by acting like a fool, and using it correctly is hard to master.
The weight and speed of the sword offer more attack options, but less on defence, you have to strike, but once you do you are left open untill you come back to guard, it require more foot work and movement.

With a shield a diffrenet type of foot work and stance is needed, do you fight shield foward and loose range and power, or do you fight sword side out, gain more attacks and power, but loose some of the protection the shield offers.
Do you block the blow? or try to avoid it? do you bash or counter attack, its all very involved.

not that I am a expert or anything, but its harder than it looks.

[jfunk]

cipher86 wrote...
[
Couldn't I tactically plan to be a certain type of fighter up until a certain point, and then tactically decide to respec at a certain point to better suit my new group/upcoming battle?

Perhaps specializations could not be unlearned, but the basic trees (like Two-Handed) could be unlearned and have the points spent elsewhere.

I'm not sure if there is a purpose to debating though, aside from simply doing it - it is done, and I don't foresee Bioware making such a change anytime soon.

Well this exact reason for respecing is why I don't like the concept. 
You're talking about making the character you're supposed to be playing
a completely different person simply to suit the particular situation
that you currently face.  That flies in the face of the entire point of
the RPG.  You're basically saying you want your character to be able to
be the best at every possible talent at any given time with the flip of
a switch.

Oh, having a 2-H sword would be best for this battle, so I'm going to make my fighter a 2-H weapons master.  What's that, the next set of monsters would be best fought with a shield, let me just pretend my character didn't spend his whole life becoming a 2-H master and just magically pretend that he instead was learning S&B the whole time.  (Even though I just took advantage of his lifetime of learning 2-H skills to beat the last battle).

The choices you make cause your character to be better
at some things and worse at others.  They will not be the best person
for EVERY situation you encounter in the world, that's by design.  You're supposed to have to adapt and find solutions for those situations with the tools your character has learned.  To circumvent this is to circumvent the entire concept of the story-driven RPG.  You're completely changing who the person is.

[SheffSteel]

I believe they did sell the game as being based on choices and consequences.

[philibusted]

A respeccing utility would be useful, even if only for the early part of the game.



Or, at least some sort of barber or something. I spent an hour or two replaying the same first part of the game last night because there was a disconnect between how the PC looked during Character Creation versus In Game.



This being the first time I've played the game, I'm still trying to figure out what I actually have available to me and how much I need to invest into combat v skill talents in order to be able to make it through the game. For instance: Do I want to focus on bows or dual wielding?



Oh well. At least it doesn't seem to be too much like D&D3.5 where I had to build my whole character before even starting the game.

[Valmy]

cipher86 wrote...

I think this game is more like WoW than some would like to admit.

WoW was like the RPGs that came before it...and now every RPG for all time will be "like WoW".

I mean seriously even in AD&D you had proficiences and had to reroll to select others...was that based on WoW as well?  I would have been very surprised in the 1980s to learn I was playing a game that was copied from a game that will be released in twenty years.

[HunterRavine]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kamenwati wrote...

Makes the game sound like WoW with all the re-speccing talks.

The game is like World of Warcraft.

If im not mistaken. World of Warcraft is like every other game that came before it.. They just nit pick and pull the best ideas from everything else and combine them into one.

So let me see. Spells and Abilities from D&D , EQ, UO, etc, etc, check

Inventory space (insert generic RPG here) Check

Battle Grounds (DaoC) Check

Talent Tree (reminds me of Alternate advancment from EQ but we will call it original for once) Check

Ok anything else we can throw in wow ... Oh yeah I hear WAR allowed you to level up in BGs lets throw that in as well as joining the BG from anywhere in the world... OK Check

"Hey Bill I hear all out Fanbois are saying all other MMOS and RPGS are like us now" "If they only knew Jim" 

Seriously guys NOTHING is going to feel new anymore. We can get better graphics. We can get newer sounds, but when it comes down to it most of us gamers have done the, "make hero from zero level up kill bosses get elite weapons save world or princess type game" so many times its going to feel like something else.

As for being on topic. No respecs for joo. Think a bit more than being expected to be handed something on a silver platter. Learn to read a bit also. The skills dont take much contimplation to figure out.  If you dont like your decision suck it up and move on or restart. Rather sure if your far enough that one point will make or break you in the game (at this time being 2 days after release)  then you have no room to talk about not having time because you sure as hell have loged enough hours.

Ok rant off

[KethWolfheart]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kamenwati wrote...

Makes the game sound like WoW with all the re-speccing talks.

The game is like World of Warcraft.

You could kinda say that about a ton of games though.  There are some simlarities but mostly surface ones.  I am speaking from experience as well, having played 5 years of WoW on a regular and consistent basis.  I can see an arguement for the "Tier" labels on items, the "armory" versus the "profile" pages, but most of the things in common are superficial ones.  They are very different games and no more alike than two human beings have some basic sets of things in common.

Course that is just my own opinion but I am pretty comfortable with it since I have a lot of experience in which to base it on (although granted my DAO is still lacking but rapidly expanding the more I play).

I have to agree that really really UGLY part of the journal that says "Premium Content" just totally blows, what are they thinking?  Talk about breaking immersion, I have to see it everytime I open it.  Why not just call it "Wardens Keep" and "Stone Prisoner" or whatever.  That was a very poor choice, much worse than respeccing.

Not that I am in favor of respeccing to much, it is a bit lame.  That has never really been an option in most RPG games unless you use a console or a mod - which I think is fine for those who want to do it.  Respeccing is more a MMORPG mindset.

[Some Dude On The Internet]

Well, a good point or two on either side... but I just love the idea of someone buying a game called "Dragon Age:Origins" and saying, "Hey, can we skip the 'Origins' part?"...

[FuzzyJon]

Perhaps, you can use the console/command line to adjust the desired skills. There is a post on the spoiler forums related to that. I unfortunately do not know the exact commands or adjustable features. But it might be worth looking into to accomplish this.

[Maedyan]

Maria Caliban wrote...
The game is like World of Warcraft.

 
It annoys me that everybody has to compare games to WoW. It especially annoys me with a game like this because it is nothing like wow... at all... 
 
In my opinion this game is more like a first person version of neverwinter nights and like a 1000% better.
 
As far as respecing is concerned; maybe you should think of this as a traditional Role Playing Game or a Pen & Paper D&D game. Can you suddently change all of your skills in any of those other games? nope, you have to start over or live with your mistake.

[Jaucinet]

Some people asking for a respect option perhaps need to tone down the grind mindset and learn to use the talents as they are drip-fed out.



Of course, not all talents will be equal, but all ought to be useful. With BG 1 & 2, I didn't need to experiment too much as I knew the system (though not always the tactics!), but for DOA (tomorrow for me), I am going to have to test each new skill to learn how to use it.



It is possible to gimp characters, hopefully not too badly, but over the skillset of your whole party your wise choices should balance out any mistakes.

[Spura]

Syrellaris wrote...

This is a classic rpg guys, not world of warcraft. You have to think about your actions here and not just go like " ooh sounds good, plant skill" and then cry later cuz you dont like it. Trial and error is very common in Crpgs

Or perhaps it's the fault of people having no idea what spells do before they take them, courtesy of vague descriptions. I wish someone opened those scrips already and told us what spell does what.

It's small wonder people want to respec their mages.

[kal_torak]

DOODLET0N wrote...

 You're supposed to make tactical and well thought out decisions on character development.

Oh really, tactical and wll thought decisions?

I musst have missed the window wheer it tells me that this spell does X damage and this other does Y. Or where it says that stun lastas X and sleep lasts Y.

In my game it only tells a vague description whith wich it is totally impossible to make those " tactical and well thought out decisions" you mention.

[LdyShayna]

cipher86 wrote...

Couldn't I tactically plan to be a certain type of fighter up until a certain point, and then tactically decide to respec at a certain point to better suit my new group/upcoming battle?

So you suddenly "forget" how to do one thing, and become a master at a completely different fighting style, just because it's convenient for you to do so?

Bleh.

For me, respec --.  I think it's a bad idea, and makes your character, well, less of a character.

[KethWolfheart]

Maedyan wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
The game is like World of Warcraft.

 
It annoys me that everybody has to compare games to WoW. It especially annoys me with a game like this because it is nothing like wow... at all... 
 
In my opinion this game is more like a first person version of neverwinter nights and like a 1000% better.
 
As far as respecing is concerned; maybe you should think of this as a traditional Role Playing Game or a Pen & Paper D&D game. Can you suddently change all of your skills in any of those other games? nope, you have to start over or live with your mistake.

Well said.  Like to keep the RPG in RPG. The reason I finally left WoW is that there is zero responsibility or connection to your character.  For pay you can change your name, your gender, your race, your faction, your server, your looks, in fact you can change anything you want except class... and a dev hinted they are even looking at that for the expansion.  Zero consequences for your actions, no repuation attached to your character, and the charatcer you are playing becomes utterly meaningless.  People are to used to instant gratification.  There needs to be some consequences to ones decisions, choices and actions to give any meaning to anything.

[xxkedzxx]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kamenwati wrote...

Makes the game sound like WoW with all the re-speccing talks.

The game is like World of Warcraft.

No, it's not. Not even close. They share similarities with being a fantasy game, but the buck stops there.

[max787]

Dr. Scarabus wrote...

MortalFoil wrote...

DOODLET0N wrote...

A respec option would take away value from the game. You're supposed to make tactical and well thought out decisions on character development. If you don't like it, just start again and hopefully you aren't too far into the story.

That is a really crappy suggestion. It's like saying your time isn't valuable. Not all of us live in our mom's basement. And no amount of thinking about the skills will ensure that you make the best choice. Text descriptions can only do so much. Most times you need to actually use the skill in battle to see if it's viable. And to do that, you need to make permanent guesses. That is a game play flaw, no matter how you try and put your elitest spin on it. The fact that you can't repec other characters when you get them, in whose talents you had no say, is just salt in the wound.

It's almost as if Bioware frowns upon min-maxing, isn't it?

Hi, excuse my ignorance but what does min-maxing mean? i've seen quite a bit around the forums
thanks

[FlintlockJazz]

max787 wrote...

Dr. Scarabus wrote...

MortalFoil wrote...

DOODLET0N wrote...

A respec option would take away value from the game. You're supposed to make tactical and well thought out decisions on character development. If you don't like it, just start again and hopefully you aren't too far into the story.

That is a really crappy suggestion. It's like saying your time isn't valuable. Not all of us live in our mom's basement. And no amount of thinking about the skills will ensure that you make the best choice. Text descriptions can only do so much. Most times you need to actually use the skill in battle to see if it's viable. And to do that, you need to make permanent guesses. That is a game play flaw, no matter how you try and put your elitest spin on it. The fact that you can't repec other characters when you get them, in whose talents you had no say, is just salt in the wound.

It's almost as if Bioware frowns upon min-maxing, isn't it?

Hi, excuse my ignorance but what does min-maxing mean? i've seen quite a bit around the forums
thanks

Best explanation I can find:

Min-maxing is the practice of playing a role-playing game, wargame or video game with the intent of creating the "best" character by means of minimizing undesired or unimportant traits and maximizing
desired ones. This is usually accomplished by improving one specific
trait or ability by sacrificing ability in all other fields. This is
easier to accomplish in games where attributes are generated from a
certain number of points rather than in ones where they are randomly
generated.

Basically, it means learning the rules so you know how to make your character as powerful as possible, except that in this day and age people can't even be bothered with that and instead lean on builds provided by others, which is a lazy-man min-maxing.

[Kurakitty]

Anouther nifty idea is you can forget skills that you have learned however you have to wait for a period of time based on the tier of the ability before you can spend the point. And by time i mean levels so if you forget a tier 1 ability you have to wait a full level before you can spend the point again 2 lvls fore tier 2 ect. That way it you aren't drasticly changing your skill set at the drop of a dime, and as you progress in levels this process takes more time to move your points around. hopefully by that point in the game you are familiar with what you want your character to be that you aren't needing to respec.

edit: I am proposing compromises to make a respec system fit but i would like it to be known I am still against needing a system in the first place. There is always the option of not selecting skills right away when you level which will allow you to place them based on when you really need a new skill.

Modifié par Kurakitty, 05 novembre 2009 - 04:34 .

[Ackis]

I don't understand why people would be against this.



If you don't want to use it, don't.



I made the mistake of auto-leveling up once, I thought it would just do my stats. Now I'm stuck with some crap that I don't want.

[aznguyen316]

Ackis wrote...

I don't understand why people would be against this.

If you don't want to use it, don't.

I made the mistake of auto-leveling up once, I thought it would just do my stats. Now I'm stuck with some crap that I don't want.

I completely agree with you.  I could type a whole lot to argue some people on here.  I also agree with poster above saying the info doesn't say about what each  skill specifically does, so hence the well-thought out tactical decisions is BS.  If we're investing a bunch of hours into our characters why not be able to relearn skills and traits.  Especially with this being a new IP and all.

To argue the point about skipping origins, yeah the game is called origins, but I think after you get the achievement or at least have played through that specific origins piece once then you should be able to skip it.  What if I want to remake a new character of that origin, but have to go through the origins piece again?  All so we can get to the same point in Ostagar?  Just bump us to level 4 or whatever, send us to Ostagar as a GW and give us the skill points to distribute before we're off again.  That'd be nice.  Options are always nice, it's not forced upon you, so why not?

[jfunk]

Ackis wrote...

I don't understand why people would be against this.

If you don't want to use it, don't.

I made the mistake of auto-leveling up once, I thought it would just do my stats. Now I'm stuck with some crap that I don't want.

The reason people don't want this as an option is because if a game is designed with this ability in mind, it must be balanced for it.  In other words, encounters would have to be designed based on the assumption that it will be tackled by the perfect party.

This type of design does not work well for those who want to "role-play" their characters, faults and all.  These people don't want to change their character(s) to meet every scenario.  They don't want to have to go back to camp and pickup a party member that their character would never associate with. 

These are things that would likely become "required" instead of optional if respecing were allowed.  Not required in the literal sense, because nobody can "force you to click the button", but required in the sense that situations and encounters may be too diificult or simply not as enjoyable as they could be if you fail to brind the "perfect party build" to it.

I would certainly be on board for a way to allow the origins to be skipped (since it's the same every time and very simple).  That way people who want to try a new build can just pick the character type and start at the camp (at maybe level 3 or whatever the standard is at the end of the origins part) with an average amount of money and basic equipment and none of their level up points used yet.  That will at least let them get to the real start of the story with a fresh character without having to spend an hour or two blindly clicking through the intro again.

However, allowing them to completely change who and what their character is after already advancing the story simply breaks the concept of a story-driven RPG.