280 réponses à ce sujet

[technosatyr]

My complaint is that the tooltips don't give enough information to make informed choices, and then we have no way to respec if it turns out something sucks. 

If, as I'm planning to do, I spend all the points needed to get the Animate Dead spell and end up with a skeleton that stands there and dies really quickly (which I'm terrified is going to happen) I have no way to go back and undo all the spells I wasted getting him. (I don't care much for the walking bomb nonsense, far too much damage to my allies to make it worthwhile)

[VeeVito]

jfunk wrote...

cipher86 wrote...
[
Couldn't I tactically plan to be a certain type of fighter up until a certain point, and then tactically decide to respec at a certain point to better suit my new group/upcoming battle?

Perhaps specializations could not be unlearned, but the basic trees (like Two-Handed) could be unlearned and have the points spent elsewhere.

I'm not sure if there is a purpose to debating though, aside from simply doing it - it is done, and I don't foresee Bioware making such a change anytime soon.

Well this exact reason for respecing is why I don't like the concept. 
You're talking about making the character you're supposed to be playing
a completely different person simply to suit the particular situation
that you currently face.  That flies in the face of the entire point of
the RPG.  You're basically saying you want your character to be able to
be the best at every possible talent at any given time with the flip of
a switch.

Oh, having a 2-H sword would be best for this battle, so I'm going to make my fighter a 2-H weapons master.  What's that, the next set of monsters would be best fought with a shield, let me just pretend my character didn't spend his whole life becoming a 2-H master and just magically pretend that he instead was learning S&B the whole time.  (Even though I just took advantage of his lifetime of learning 2-H skills to beat the last battle).

The choices you make cause your character to be better
at some things and worse at others.  They will not be the best person
for EVERY situation you encounter in the world, that's by design.  You're supposed to have to adapt and find solutions for those situations with the tools your character has learned.  To circumvent this is to circumvent the entire concept of the story-driven RPG.  You're completely changing who the person is.

Well said and I agree.

[Wickedjelly]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I think it's strange how some folks are decrying the DLC NPCs as "breaking immersion," and here's other folks asking for options to break immersion so they can re-spec. Mom, Dad, don't make me choose! I love you both equally!

If you really want to get technical having the ability to respec does not necessarily have to break the immersion level of a game. One could always create a story line or even a quest that allows for such an option so the ability to reevaluate your character being within or outside of the immersion level of a game is really up to the developers

I don't see the harm in allowing someone the ability to respec as long as it is limited to some extent whether it be through having to complete some type of quest, simply a numeric value limiting the amount of times one can do it, or having to pay an insane amount of gold to have the option.  I would imagine it might suck for some if they get pretty far in the game only to realize that some of the choices they made aren't making the cut in trying to complete their objectives or they simply don't enjoy their specialization because it doesn't play out the way they imagined.

Just my opinion

[SheffSteel]

Theronyll Itholien wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

Make decisions and live with the consequences.
Too hard for you?
Heaven help you when you switch off the game and try living.

I think that's the point, smart-butt. We're playing a game and would be happy to see that every decision you make in there won't be able to screw it all up.

There's nothing wrong with respeccing. If people don't like it, then don't use it. But being forced to continue with a character you accidently messed up because you didn't have the slightest idea what the combat would be like, or start completely over from scratch, is a bit harsh and an unnecessary cruelness.

Less of the insults, please. There's no call for them.

There is something wrong with respeccing. It kills the notion that this is a game where you have to deal with the consequences of your choices.

If you mess up, go back to your last save and do it right this time. If this is painful for you, it increases the chance of you learning from the experience. Conversely, if you go through life being handed everything you want on a plate, you will never learn anything - and there's also a very real possibility that you won't always be given everything you want.

[Dussan2]

I'm on the fence about respec option. Mostly because IRL you can see the endgame for your training and career path in some form or another. And respecing is like someone having the option to go back in time and redo high school so they can get a jump on being a Doctor instead of a police officer.



But in this game its so big and new. It's not like Mass Effect that was short enough you could restart your character and catch up to the story in minutes rather than hours. Nor is it lie KOTOR, where you had that one golden save, right before you become a jedi and could go back and forth and experiment. Andit's not like BG 1&2/NWN which everyone was familiar with the character sets enough that you could stick with the vanilla cookie cutter character and maybe throw in a dash of something fun later on.



So on one hnd I think the Devs should not offer respec. It's a cop out. It would make sense if your character was broken cause the skills youchose don't work. But they do. And the devs WANT you to keep playing and playing, over and over again.

[Hety]

Jaucinet, I wont compare this game to BG. Its really really in another league. In BG i had a choice of 2 clerics (melee and raged oriented) and a full range of different personalities that could fill gaps and such. Here its simple. You either start as mage or use Wynne. SO you are, basicly, left with 2 spare slots in party. If you take Wynne and you are healer - you are useless. Dont compare those games. This one is tainted by console spirit (feel free to stab me for that).



The game is, like almost any console game, apart from jRPGs (grind-grind-grind) does not provide a decent ability to precisely calculate the effect of each skill. Well you CAN do it, but it requires a lot of insight Like reading missing manual and such. And you never can get info in-game. In BG you could see the precise numbers in spell info.



All this "penetrates armor"... How it does it? By amount, or %? How? How should i figure out that this rogue talent is completely and utterly useless? No way how. I restarted the game coz i wasted like 4 points on stuff that sounded good but worked poorly. In the end we will just get streamlined chars with all decent skills taken and useless one;s left out. An no1 will bother trying to make another build, coz its a damn huge waste of time and causes frustration in the end.



I'm just waiting for mods. Those, that will allow me to play this game without challenges not from Blight, but from idiotic tooltips and stupid talents.

[gersen16]

(Double post, didn't know there was a forum delay, sorry)

Modifié par gersen16, 05 novembre 2009 - 07:02 .

[gersen16]

Re-specing is cheating in a single-player RPG. So you could make a rogue, build up his lock-picking skills, open a heap of chests - then magically lose those skills and put them into fighting instead, and be carrying around all this loot that you shouldn't have? That's ridiculous. I know that's not the intention most of you have, but by the same logic, you will have passed prior battles using the skills you picked originally, where things might've gone differently if you had the skills you wanted. It's magically changing what's happened in the past, and goes against everything a SP RPG is designed for.



I like this time when a game comes out, and nobody knows the system very well. The point is to start on Easy or Normal and don't worry too much about messing up your character, just enjoy the game anyway. In my first game of KOTOR I had the Melee skills before I got the lightsabre, they turned out to be useless, and I didn't really care. Like everybody involved with the game has said, if you try starting on Hard or Nightmare, you're probably going to get your arse kicked.



In a few weeks the Origin-skipping mods and character editors will come out for those that want them, as well as fan-made guides to skills. If you're an obsessive min-maxer who can't enjoy an RPG like a normal gamer, then you should probably wait a month or so before buying any new games instead of moaning about wanting cheats. The boxed game is how the developers want us to play it, and that is personally how I tend to keep it - if the option to respec is there, then that means the game has been built with that in mind; we'd all be tempted to use it, and it would break immersion, allow us to change on the fly for any battle, and even give us impossible loot.

[mcgintis1979]

I would love a respec option as well, very disappointed to see there is not one. This brings the game value down for me. Having options in a game is never a bad thing, if you do not like that option do not choose it.

[MightySword]

Hety wrote...
All this "penetrates armor"... How it does it? By amount, or %? How? How should i figure out that this rogue talent is completely and utterly useless? No way how. I restarted the game coz i wasted like 4 points on stuff that sounded good but worked poorly. In the end we will just get streamlined chars with all decent skills taken and useless one;s left out. An no1 will bother trying to make another build, coz its a damn huge waste of time and causes frustration in the end.

Uhm it's explained in the manual.  Armor Pen is basically extra damage against armor wearing character as long as their armor value is greater than the armor pen value. If it's smaller than the Armor Pen has no effect. I know the manual smell kinda stink, but it should not affect readiability


And I think I know what the fuss is, DA is a new game that kinda use a new system, so that's how a lot of people making mistake, but that's part of the learning and I think the fun/challenging playing a new game. It's kinda funny on one hand people yearn for new and change, on the other hand they don't like the uncomfortability that comes with it. And this is hardly new. I'm no DnD player, I'm un familiar with my ruleset so I know how my first run with BG was painful. Same thing with KOTOR, my first character was built so bad that I died constantly once I got to Starforge, and it took me almost an hour to kill Malak using all the items I had on me. In my 3rd or 4th play through though, my buit is so good I kill him in like 2 minutes.


What I don't understand the complain is what do you guys expect, to fully understand the game and get everything right on your first run? That would mean the system either shallow, or repeative, which kinda contradict the desire of a challenge and deep system. Like I said, point me out a SP game that allowes repseccing, I don't play all but I do play a lot RPG, and the only SP RPG allows that is Fable, and it comes with a hefty pelnalty.


I don't understand all the "I'm so disappoint DA doesn't allow respeccing". It would make sense if most SP-RPG to date has the feature and DA shows it the cold shoulder. But this is how SP-RPG has always been, the only difference I believe here that there is no DnD guru here who had played through tone of games, read through tone of books and know exactly what to do with the system, in this game everyone is a no0b.

I know and understand the sastisfaction of being a Know-All junkie, but I believe being a no0b has own fun and charm, and I'm glad DA make me feel like one, haven't feel that way in a long time

Modifié par MightySword, 05 novembre 2009 - 07:26 .

[Tsuga C]

Maria Caliban wrote...
The game is like World of Warcraft.

Never having played either one, I don't know if this is a positive or negative statement about DA:O.  

[Rayvolution]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kamenwati wrote...

Makes the game sound like WoW with all the re-speccing talks.

The game is like World of Warcraft.

Because the PC version uses a similar control scheme and has the "behind the shoulder" third person view?

Other than that.. the only thing this game has in common is being an "RPG"..

[JWeb]

oldmanpaco wrote...

Where is Dungeon-Be-Gone when you need it.

Hah ! nice one , oldmanpaco

[Le_Mieux]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Kamenwati wrote...

Makes the game sound like WoW with all the re-speccing talks.

The game is like World of Warcraft.

In many more ways than I care to admit.

[thrice00]

MortalFoil wrote...

That is a really crappy suggestion. It's like saying your time isn't valuable. Not all of us live in our mom's basement. And no amount of thinking about the skills will ensure that you make the best choice. Text descriptions can only do so much. Most times you need to actually use the skill in battle to see if it's viable. And to do that, you need to make permanent guesses. That is a game play flaw, no matter how you try and put your elitest spin on it. The fact that you can't repec other characters when you get them, in whose talents you had no say, is just salt in the wound.

Cry More?

[Jaucinet]

As more time goes by there'll build up a wealth of details about mechanics. DnD allowed kits to be planned before the game was even out the box. This does take away an avenue of fun though (given a certain definition of fun). When I played PnP D&D, our ref would complain we knew too much, having access to all the manuals, including enemy stats.

At that time I didn't care bacause I liked the books and feared getting killed too much. With DAO I want to start in the dark, save for my experience with the basic gameplay type. I'm puuting my trust in Bioware that even withought the most efficient builds I can find a way to win. I don't think, after a few days of play, so many people can genuinely be in a place of no tactical escape. This game is going to be a long burn over several replays and a few years for me. Something that is a massive inconvenience for some is a bonus for me, a limit on freedom that forces me to take the game more seriously. Some days I just want to galumph about in Mirror's Edge. Horses for courses.

Modifié par Jaucinet, 05 novembre 2009 - 08:04 .

[SheffSteel]

thrice00 wrote...

MortalFoil wrote...

The fact that you can't repec other characters when you get them, in whose talents you had no say, is just salt in the wound.

Cry More?

The fact that you meet characters is one of the game's strong points. 

[Encard]

You know, all the arguments against respec pretty much amount to saying that one style of play is better than another style of play - that the game is inherently better if it is harder, does not ever allow something that some people believe breaks immersion, etc. That's not much of an argument, though - the reason most people play a CRPG is to have fun, and nobody's play style is inherently to superior to anyone else's. There's no virtue inherent in preventing other people from doing what they enjoy with the game.



So... why not just put in a Respec On/Off checkbox somewhere in the menu? If it's on you'll get the option to switch things around when you level up - if it's off, the option doesn't show up. Everybody's happy - it doesn't have to interfere with your game if you don't enjoy it, and it's available if you do want to change things around.

[Zeatanas]

I think in the future when the wiki is more fleshed out and I have a better grasp of what each skill does throughout the game as well as how my stats and items will impact my skills, I will make better decisions about my skill and stat choices. For now, however, I know that I am going to make poor decisions - and I'm going to live with them. I would love to have a respec option, but I will play the game without it and suffer the consequences of the poor decision.



That being said, if I come back to the game for another playthrough in six months or a year's time, I will definitely do more research about the skills and stats and how they will impact my character. I imagine that my potential second playthrough will be much easier once more information is available. I, too, wish that the manual or wiki had more information NOW so that we could make better decisions the first time around.



For now I'm simply going to have to save the game before I level up each time, but even that may not be enough. I just hope that the knowledge base is fleshed out quickly so that I can get a better grasp on what does what.

[FlintlockJazz]

Firstly, respeccing was introduced in MMOs because there is no way to 'save' your game in them so you can go back and do different things, in a single player you might as well enter a cheat code.



Secondly, if your justification is that "We don't all have 8 hours a day to play the game" whats the rush? It sounds like from some people they are not enjoying the game, trying to grind their way through it like they would an MMO to get to some endgame. Guess what, there isn't one, just an end. How about forgetting about making the 'best build' and just focus on enjoying the game hey? Who cares that your character isn't teh ultimat build, you're not going to let down fellow raiders, and you ain't gonna be pwned in PvP because there aren't any. I seriously doubt all these people are gimping themselves so badly, it's just Generation-MMO treating it as a grindrush again.

[Imryll]

Syrellaris wrote...

This is a classic rpg guys, not world of warcraft. You have to think about your actions here and not just go like " ooh sounds good, plant skill" and then cry later cuz you dont like it. Trial and error is very common in Crpgs

Thinking about your actions is all well and good, but without more detailed talent/spell descriptions or experience in the game world, folks are really guessing what will be most useful in unfamiliar encounters in partnership with party members they've yet to meet. 

[Hety]

Mightysword, I'm not talking about AP in general. I'm talking about one skill. Which tooltip says:

"The rogue makes a swift strike at a vulnerable area on the target, dealing normal damage but gaining a bonus to armor penetration"

I mean ok ok, i got ya. It gives bonus... Is it a % bonus and i should stack AP for skill usage? Or its flat bonus? If flat - whats the amount? Thats what i call console crap. If you cant put enuf text into tooltip you just make it sound like it means something, but it does only for people, who play on easy/normal and wont ever bother to read, coz the game can be completed blindfolded. Cmon, just admit the whole system it geared toward the "large audience", coz it means profit. I'm not a big fan of overcomplicated things myself, but i prefer to have more info than less.



Respec is an easy way to solving a problem, that is so obvious that it wont be better if it'll bite ya. Hard (and better way, imho) is to provide enough in-game info to make right decisions. And the hardest way is to make all skills useful, Then i'm ok with no ability to respec.

[Paper Ninja]

I'm going to say, "No" to respecs. This is a game where your character's choices are supposed to matter just like in real life. If you told that guy who might have joined your party to ****** off, then he won't be coming back.



If you chose to spend your hard earned levels training to use a shield and sword, then you shouldn't be able to magically become a master of a 2-handed blade (unless you trained both).



This isn't wow, and though I love wow, I respect that. If you feel you made poor choices, improvise, or start over.

[VeeVito]

MMO's pretty much popularized "respecs". To the point where people regard it as a part of rpg's in general.



In an mmo it's more acceptable (although you could argue against it there too) because the skills and stats are tweaked so regularly and even whole mechanics of gameplay are reworked that not allowing people to respec would be ridiculous really.



Single player rpgs are a different animal. They are more designed to have you "play" a character that you want, say a warrior that is a 2-hander master. And go through the game as that person. They aren't really meant or designed for you to just zone back to town, change your characters strengths and weaknesses to fit the dungeon you just found and go back out a completely different character. So what if a warrior who specced in sword and shield would have a better time in a particular encounter? Find another way. Use party members in new ways to make up the difference, etc.



At least that's how i've always played rpg's, either mmo or SP. I make a character and choose specs based on the vision I have for my guy, not based on what is more viable in this or that raid.



Having said that, I can see how it could be construed as "telling someone how to play" or "this way is better than that way, so i'll just present that as my opinion.

[Nekator]

Never heard of this "respec" crap before.. just shows how WOW makes it´s players to little whiners, unable to face the consequences of their actions imo