61 réponses à ce sujet

[finc.loki]

The removal of healing is to make the game more challenging. You don't think that when JRPGs and WRPGs both have a healer, 100 limit on potions, regen spells, etc. since forever is kind of backwards? It's a shock, sure, but it adds a layer of planning and tactic that I like.

Have you noticed how much quests give you XP and combat so few? Do quests, avoid combat as much as possible, then go back to earlier areas where you can maul everything in your path; no healing needed.

How can you not see that the challenge doesn't lay in the COMBAT, but the limitation of healing and potions.

The enemies are just dumb AI that can soak damage like there is no tomorrow with health bars ranging in the THOUSANDS of health.

They also designed them to hit hard so your HEALTH goes down, forcing you to chug these LIMITED potions. OOOOOOOOOO, now we have a difficult game.

 

It's so transparently cheap it is revolting. It removes the simply fun out of the game.

 

It is an incredible annoyance to have to go back to camp to get new potions and you KNOW there is an infinite supply of them.

 

The difficulty lies in how much can you take the nuisance of running back to camp for more potions. 

[finc.loki]

 

On the other hand, I actually haven't missed healing *specifically* while playing as much as I thought I would.  The combination of potions, barrier, and guard provides a good alternative.  It's also made playing a warrior more interesting, as guard is basically a form of self-healing that goes a long way towards making warriors more independent, whereas in previous games their survival depended so much on the healer (in fact, this system of healer-less tank is probably my favorite innovation in the game thus far).  Rebalancing fights to not involve a healer also provides more diversity in party setup, since you don't *have* to bring a healer to every fight.

First off, that might be fine and dandy for a warrior that can build their own guard (extra persistent health), other classes can't (mage maybe with barrier as KE).

Second you say removing healer allows for more diverse party? yet you are FORCED to have at least one mage that cast barriers, pretty much a "healer" wouldn't you say? Only it is now as a mitigator of damage.

 

Diversity in this game is actually extremely restricted when it comes to party selection, you need a rogue for certain locks, warrior for certain walls, and mage for certain world barriers.

[Tevinter Soldier]

personally i'm loving the lack of healing. I've ran into a full inventory more times then I have run out of potions.

 

Last night before i logged of a completed the Magi recruiting mission with a full mage party, took some massive damage squad was dropping like god damn flies, BUT there was conveniently place restock kits all the way and by the time i got to the boss battle with his 20K+ health for my pathetic level 8's i'd learnt to synergise my attacks, and it was GLORIOUS!! we were doing over 2K of damage every time we spammed skills. it was like a disco of death.

conversely when i was roaming with my balanced party just minutes before killing bears with 5K health was a slog. 

 

overall i find i'm using tac cam more and more instinctively planning plotting destroying......... it almost feels like murder on many occasions. I guess it would suck a for those that like fire and forget, but overall battles "feel" more intense as you watch Viv steal everyone's health potions but wont drink any mana potions because you forgot to set her tactics.

 

best moment so far was with my round mob at lvl 6, which would never have happened if i had healing (unless healing was gimped and thus pointless) was coming out of a carta controlled cave we were way under leveled for we'd over spent potions in our retreat, and then followed the river north to a camp so we set out following the river north to a campsite, punched our way through a templar out post things were looking good and then?

 

we stumbled upon a rift that was vomitting level i don't know but they were double digits and we level 6. 

near full party wipe from attrition the 2 health potions we had simply weren't enough. inqus and cass died fast. camp was just up the hill, there was too many of them with ranged attacks we'd disengaged but we were too low on health.

 

But the camp was so close, just up the hill. we could still win this........... i entered tac cam order solus to attack, took control of varric and entered stealth and made a desperate bid to climb out of the ravine, and charged towards the tent not knowing what was a head. team resurrected with less health then a nug. if this was occupied we were stuffed.

 

Relief, Jubilation, it was clear! and so we set up our camp for a long earned rest............. and then i found there was a god damn camp a great deal closer to the cave to begin with!

[Swordfishtrombone]

I'm kinda on the fence on this one. Both sides of the argument have good points.

 

I think healing would be fine as it is, if only the combat UI was improved - the tactical view doesn't allow you to zoom out enough to give you a good view of the battle field, and scrolling around is just annoying, and unnecessarily slows down the flow of combat.

 

This is why I avoid using the tactical view as much as possible, which means that sometimes I end up getting hurt a bit more than I would have had I micromanaged with the tactical view.

 

Add to this the absence of any real customization of combat tactics for characters, and you've got a problem; you need to micromanage to keep your health in order to limit your need to visit the camp, you can't optimize tactics to reduce your need to micromanage, and you don't WANT to micromanage because the tactical view sucks.

 

Also if I switch to my tank without the tactical view, and give her a new target, and then switch back to my main character, the tank's AI seems to just switch back to attacking the nearest enemy. This is probably due to me having set up the tank to follow herself (effectively "attack nearest enemy"), because I did not want her running around the battle field following my targeting, as I am an archer. 

 

These kinds of problems could have been avoided simply by giving the player more control over the tactics of the companions, just like in the previous games. I REALLY don't understand the cutting of simple tactical "if-then" lists from the game. If that was judged too complicated for the average player, then why not have two tactical pages - one as it now is, only with an "advanced settings" button added, behind which you could get more into the nuts and bolts of tactics?

 

Anyway, to stay on the topic, I think the lack of healing potions might be a good thing, on balance, if the complaints I've detailed above were addressed.

[herkles]

personally i'm loving the lack of healing. I've ran into a full inventory more times then I have run out of potions.

 

Last night before i logged of a completed the Magi recruiting mission with a full mage party, took some massive damage squad was dropping like god damn flies, BUT there was conveniently place restock kits all the way and by the time i got to the boss battle with his 20K+ health for my pathetic level 8's i'd learnt to synergise my attacks, and it was GLORIOUS!! we were doing over 2K of damage every time we spammed skills. it was like a disco of death.

conversely when i was roaming with my balanced party just minutes before killing bears with 5K health was a slog. 

 

overall i find i'm using tac cam more and more instinctively planning plotting destroying......... it almost feels like murder on many occasions. I guess it would suck a for those that like fire and forget, but overall battles "feel" more intense as you watch Viv steal everyone's health potions but wont drink any mana potions because you forgot to set her tactics.

 

best moment so far was with my round mob at lvl 6, which would never have happened if i had healing (unless healing was gimped and thus pointless) was coming out of a carta controlled cave we were way under leveled for we'd over spent potions in our retreat, and then followed the river north to a camp so we set out following the river north to a campsite, punched our way through a templar out post things were looking good and then?

 

we stumbled upon a rift that was vomitting level i don't know but they were double digits and we level 6. 

near full party wipe from attrition the 2 health potions we had simply weren't enough. inqus and cass died fast. camp was just up the hill, there was too many of them with ranged attacks we'd disengaged but we were too low on health.

 

But the camp was so close, just up the hill. we could still win this........... i entered tac cam order solus to attack, took control of varric and entered stealth and made a desperate bid to climb out of the ravine, and charged towards the tent not knowing what was a head. team resurrected with less health then a nug. if this was occupied we were stuffed.

 

Relief, Jubilation, it was clear! and so we set up our camp for a long earned rest............. and then i found there was a god damn camp a great deal closer to the cave to begin with!

yea, this is sort of my experience as well. I love not having healing.

[Tevinter Soldier]

yea, this is sort of my experience as well. I love not having healing.

 

I can't help but wonder have the people that are enjoying the lack of healing done what i have and replayed DA2 recently? because personally i found DA2 horrible between its ham fisted global cooldowns, forcing me to take anders or spec a healer myself and difficulty level curve resembling CBA stocks because "tough" means "initiate party wipe." 

 

Maybe there's a legitimate gripe with no healing and its not coming across because gimped healing is a spastic idea.

[alienman]

I don't like this new system at all. It feels so damn limiting and annoying. I guess I'm a traditionalist, but so far DA:O is a better game combat-wise in every single way. And the fact that you still need a mage for those barriers to survive makes this even more so ridiculous.

[n7stormrunner]

tactical isn't the word you all are looking for, no even close. challenging is a better one though not quite accurate either.

 

 

I can't help but wonder have the people that are enjoying the lack of healing done what i have and replayed DA2 recently? because personally i found DA2 horrible between its ham fisted global cooldowns, forcing me to take anders or spec a healer myself and difficulty level curve resembling CBA stocks because "tough" means "initiate party wipe." 

 

Maybe there's a legitimate gripe with no healing and its not coming across because gimped healing is a spastic idea.

 

 

well if you want challenging tactical gameplay, tough should mean total party wipe if you don't know what you're doing. at least on anything besides easy. and easy should still be a close call. I'm a firm believer in difficulty coming from encounter design not limiting players cause... reasons.

 

 

a fight is challenging because you had everything you need and it still needs you to think about how to use it, i.e. defend/heal/runaway now cause you'll die otherwise, or hit them now because you'll hurt em more. cc to hold them at bay while killing something else.

 

not because you're blindfolded with one arm tied behind your back. i.e. need to heal, lol nope can't because game would let me bring enough potions or use a heal spell., game over screen. sure a fight or two like that can be fun, ok that a lie no ever likes those fights. but a whole game is annoying.

 

and before anyone says it is not resource management either. resource management is you  x amount of purchasing power, gold, dollars, gil, whatever. and you need y amount of recovery items, armour, weapons, troops whatever you're buying.  and you figuring out how to get what you need of y with what you have of x. no limits needed except your purchasing power.

 

p.s. war is still going a little far though.

[Wizaerd]

At first, I thought I was going to hate the no healing and no health regen.  But as I play this game, I've come to realize how I used healing and health regen as a crutch.  I didn't really have to be all the concerned in a fight, I could take some risks that ordinarily I wouldn't, I didn't have to be concerned about the next fight at all, because I'd be starting fresh every time.  Since I don;t want to have to go back to camp after every fight, I've been a bit more careful in my altercations.  I tackle them a bit smarter in an effort to not take as much damage.  Without that healing crutch, I've found the game more challenging and more fun. I for one am muey muey happy that they removed healing and health regen.  Now as I explore, and deciding whether to return to restock or to continue on, becomes a meaningful decision in and of itself.

[Tevinter Soldier]

tactical isn't the word you all are looking for, no even close. challenging is a better one though not quite accurate either.

 

 

 

 

well if you want challenging tactical gameplay, tough should mean total party wipe if you don't know what you're doing. at least on anything besides easy. and easy should still be a close call. I'm a firm believer in difficulty coming from encounter design not limiting players cause... reasons.

 

 

a fight is challenging because you had everything you need and it still needs you to think about how to use it, i.e. defend/heal/runaway now cause you'll die otherwise, or hit them now because you'll hurt em more. cc to hold them at bay while killing something else.

 

not because you're blindfolded with one arm tied behind your back. i.e. need to heal, lol nope can't because game would let me bring enough potions or use a heal spell., game over screen. sure a fight or two like that can be fun, ok that a lie no ever likes those fights. but a whole game is annoying.

 

and before anyone says it is not resource management either. resource management is you  x amount of purchasing power, gold, dollars, gil, whatever. and you need y amount of recovery items, armour, weapons, troops whatever you're buying.  and you figuring out how to get what you need of y with what you have of x. no limits needed except your purchasing power.

 

p.s. war is still going a little far though.

 

And hows it any different then preventing you from healing because of stupid global cooldown timers?

 

Knowing i have 8 means planning around that. having 50 is useless if can't heal when i need it. it's not to much different to having unlimted potions it merely gives better flexibility for the player to access them as needed, whilst preventing chugging potions to get you through the fight.

 

the party wipes in DA:II had nothing to do with tactics and everything to do with the clock management, I'm not against healing, I'm against gimping healing to satisfy a small subset of elitists. this solves the problem with having errant spikes in difficulty. 

 

the simple fact is you have everything you need the game was designed around 8 potions and the times where the dev's see you needing more they conveniently placed a restock bin.

 

you should never be out of potions unless chug potions, they very thing they are forcing players to move away from. It's intentional.

[Urazz]

I think Bioware didn't do too well with the removal of healing too much.  Instead they pretty much just replaced it with having mages cast barriers instead for extra hp instead of healing.

[Sidney]

It hasn't made combat harder. Period. We can dispense with that thought. It isn't more challenging or require more tactics. Instead of spamming healing potions you now spam Barrier. Yeah...except barrier basically, no wait, totally sucks as a spell and defensive mechanism but you still spam the hell out of it.

 

What lack of healing has done is exactly what it did in BG/IWD. It creates a hassle of having to periodically backtrack to a camp and press a button to rest and then roam back over the same trodden ground. It adds tedium not fun and not a challenge.

[Smittyry17]

Game wise I can see this being annoying. I like it as it rewards other types of play. You need to be smart before you take damage.

Lore wise it makes since. In the dragon age universe healing is a tough thing to do. As you see in dragon age 2 anders is tired healing someone. If it was easy you just needed one Mage in a town and cast heal anytime they are hurt. If you ever saw people in the games resting after a battle and people were talking about how they need healing. I always had a healer and was like "why can't I just fast heal on them all." So it makes since that you could not do this unless you use a focus point. As it would take a lot of focus to do. Also imagine trying to heal another person when they are getting set on fire. Hit my
Mauls and arrows.

I can see the disappointment. But lore wise it does follow what they say about healing.

[Itkovian]

It hasn't made combat harder. Period. We can dispense with that thought. It isn't more challenging or require more tactics. Instead of spamming healing potions you now spam Barrier. Yeah...except barrier basically, no wait, totally sucks as a spell and defensive mechanism but you still spam the hell out of it.

 

What lack of healing has done is exactly what it did in BG/IWD. It creates a hassle of having to periodically backtrack to a camp and press a button to rest and then roam back over the same trodden ground. It adds tedium not fun and not a challenge.

 

This is incorrect. Barrier Spam is NOT heal spam.

 

For one thing, Barrier is a proactive measure that requires a different playstyle. Secondly, the big difference is that unlike healing when somoene makes it through your barrier, you now have a tangible wound that will not heal itself unless you chug a potion. And chugging a potion means using up a finite resource that won't come back until you make it back to camp.

 

What this means is that Bioware no longer has to design each fight as a potential party wipe, which was the only way to make challenging battles in the previous game. Either you wiped, or you killed the enemies and fully recovered. This is no longer the case: now every encounter can cause tangible harm to your party, if it manages to reduce your health. THIS is why we have a lot less massive brawls in DAI, why we no longer fight for our lives against impossible odds in every encounter.

 

And this is a good thing: every fight is a challenge, you need to play smart and ensure you keep your guard and barrier up, that your tanks do their jobs right to keep aggro off your glass cannons. Because if you don't you'll start losing health and potions, leaving you vulnerable when you finally DO get into a fight design to be a major challenge (like a boss fight).

 

So, to address your last paragraph: NO, the lack of healing does NOT create the hassle of having to trudge back to camp to refill potions. It's your failure in battle that did. Because THAT is the fail condition of regular battles in DAI: a greater than expected loss in HP, requiring you to use potions. The equivalent fail condition in DAO or DA2 would be a total party wipe requiring a reload. The difference is in DAI you still live if you fail, and get the option of going back to camp to refill.

 

Don't want to trudge back to camp needlessly? Then manage your health well in battle, or reload when you do mess up. And if you can't, and you still find yourself going back to camp all the time, then it's time to lower the difficulty.

[Capeo]

This is incorrect. Barrier Spam is NOT heal spam.

 

For one thing, Barrier is a proactive measure that requires a different playstyle. Secondly, the big difference is that unlike healing when somoene makes it through your barrier, you now have a tangible wound that will not heal itself unless you chug a potion. And chugging a potion means using up a finite resource that won't come back until you make it back to camp.

 

What this means is that Bioware no longer has to design each fight as a potential party wipe, which was the only way to make challenging battles in the previous game. Either you wiped, or you killed the enemies and fully recovered. This is no longer the case: now every encounter can cause tangible harm to your party, if it manages to reduce your health. THIS is why we have a lot less massive brawls in DAI, why we no longer fight for our lives against impossible odds in every encounter.

 

And this is a good thing: every fight is a challenge, you need to play smart and ensure you keep your guard and barrier up, that your tanks do their jobs right to keep aggro off your glass cannons. Because if you don't you'll start losing health and potions, leaving you vulnerable when you finally DO get into a fight design to be a major challenge (like a boss fight).

 

So, to address your last paragraph: NO, the lack of healing does NOT create the hassle of having to trudge back to camp to refill potions. It's your failure in battle that did. Because THAT is the fail condition of regular battles in DAI: a greater than expected loss in HP, requiring you to use potions. The equivalent fail condition in DAO or DA2 would be a total party wipe requiring a reload. The difference is in DAI you still live if you fail, and get the option of going back to camp to refill.

 

Don't want to trudge back to camp needlessly? Then manage your health well in battle, or reload when you do mess up. And if you can't, and you still find yourself going back to camp all the time, then it's time to lower the difficulty.

You pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.

Also regen potions between fights is a thing.  If you're going through healing potions that much just while exploring you're doing something wrong.

[Smittyry17]

You can also carry 12 potions later. Regeneration potions and set more than one camp.

[spl1cE]

I am fine with less healing and more challange, but the fact I have to travel back to the camp to restore my health is an absolutely fun and atmosphere killer to me. 

It's like Frodo and Sam just would have to fast travel back to Rivendell on half their way...

Why not make potions a random drop or at least get the chance to restore some health when collecting herbs?

[Khevar]

I am fine with less healing and more challange, but the fact I have to travel back to the camp to restore my health is an absolutely fun and atmosphere killer to me. 

 

A few people have said this, and I have to say I'm a bit mystified by it.

 

My method gameplay in DA:I involves unlocking camps across the map on my way towards quest locations.  I replenish my potions going forward, not going backward.  Is this not something other people do?

 

The only time I've run out of potions before I hit another camp (or went back to home base to move the main quest along) were times when I tried tackling enemies way over my level range.

[Smittyry17]

I am fine with less healing and more challange, but the fact I have to travel back to the camp to restore my health is an absolutely fun and atmosphere killer to me.

It's like Frodo and Sam just would have to fast travel back to Rivendell on half their way...

Why not make potions a random drop or at least get the chance to restore some health when collecting herbs?

I see where you are going. But frodo and Sam did not have the option to place many camps and fast travel to them. In many areas you can place a few camps and fast travel back. Or push on to try and survive until your at the next one.

[Capeo]

I am fine with less healing and more challange, but the fact I have to travel back to the camp to restore my health is an absolutely fun and atmosphere killer to me.

It's like Frodo and Sam just would have to fast travel back to Rivendell on half their way...

Why not make potions a random drop or at least get the chance to restore some health when collecting herbs?

Frodo and Sam weren't getting attacked by bears or smacked in the face with war hammers.

Again, if you have to go back and refill that often lower the difficulty until you get a better grasp of the damage mitigation mechanics.

[spl1cE]

I see where you are going. But frodo and Sam did not have the option to place many camps and fast travel to them. In many areas you can place a few camps and fast travel back. Or push on to try and survive until your at the next one.

That point goes to you.

But still I don't like the system of not beeing able to get health back just by exploring the world  (ಥ﹏ಥ)
 

 

Frodo and Sam weren't getting attacked by bears or smacked in the face with war hammers.

Again, if you have to go back and refill that often lower the difficulty until you get a better grasp of the damage mitigation mechanics.

 

Dude you can pull that "argument" as often as you want, but it doesnt change the fact, that the situation as is it now is not the best solution....

[Itkovian]

You're being a bit silly here.

 

If you're running out of healing pots, it means your chosen strategy results in too much incoming damage.  Use more damage mitigation abilities.  Focus the important enemies first.  Use crowd control to take enemies out of the fight.  Etc.

 

If you don't feel like doing that, then simply turn the difficulty down.  Voila.

 

Precisely.

 

Where in DAO/DA2 failure meant a party wipe, in DAI it means taking too much health damage. If you think that winning a routine fight after they did lots of damage to you is a win, you need to readjust the way you think about it. Because it's not a win, and the consequence of the failure is to have less resources left for later fights.

 

If you find yourself trudging back to camp all the time to refill potions, you're doing it wrong.

[Capeo]

That point goes to you.

But still I don't like the system of not beeing able to get health back just by exploring the world (ಥ﹏ಥ)



Dude you can pull that "argument" as often as you want, but it doesnt change the fact, that the situation as is it now is not the best solution....

This is the game. You have two solutions: take less damage or lower the difficulty. The game is generous with checkpoints, camps and fast travel points I can't really understand how people are blowing through potions so fast that they have to turn around. Short of stumbling into a dragon before you're ready or something along those lines.

[Smittyry17]

That point goes to you.

But still I don't like the system of not beeing able to get health back just by exploring the world (ಥ﹏ಥ)



Dude you can pull that "argument" as often as you want, but it doesnt change the fact, that the situation as is it now is not the best solution....

I do see where you are coming from. I think it just is done so each fight keeps us on our toes. It was not my fav and I did like playing a healer. But I think it is a change, and we just need to work with it now. I have trouble working on damage mitigation but once you get it down you won't be taking much damage. It is a big change so try to enjoy the game in the meantime

[adun12345]

First off, that might be fine and dandy for a warrior that can build their own guard (extra persistent health), other classes can't (mage maybe with barrier as KE).

Second you say removing healer allows for more diverse party? yet you are FORCED to have at least one mage that cast barriers, pretty much a "healer" wouldn't you say? Only it is now as a mitigator of damage.

 

Diversity in this game is actually extremely restricted when it comes to party selection, you need a rogue for certain locks, warrior for certain walls, and mage for certain world barriers.

 

I'm not convinced that you do have to bring a mage for barrier, although it is admittedly very useful.  On my current playthrough, my main character is a mage, so I naturally always have one in my party.  However, I could see a mage-less party working on lower difficulties, especially if it was warrior-heavy for guard tanking, perhaps with a rogue with .  Playing on normal, barrier hasn't been essential to my playthrough thus far, especially since aggro management is so much improved over DA2.  Barrier is also sufficiently easy to pick up (only one or two points in the spirit tree) that really a mage of any spec can provide barrier coverage: it doesn't require a dedicated barrier mage, in the way that previous healing systems have tended to require a heavy investment in healing skills to be effective.

 

So overall, I'm pretty pleased with the way this game's combat system functions.  The absence of healing is a bit disappointing personally, since I was looking forward to rolling a healing mage for my first playthrough, but now that I'm actually in the game I'm finding the combat very enjoyable.  Between the improved tanking abilities, plentiful crowd control, and easily-restocked potions, I haven't been missing healing much at all (so far).