61 réponses à ce sujet

[Khevar]

I find myself wondering if it would be feasible to have a 3 rogue party, and a two handed Reaver Iron Bull with no Champion / Vanguard talents.

 

No guard and no barrier whatsoever.

 

It would be interesting, that's for sure.

[Paul E Dangerously]

It doesn't help that the AI is dumb as a box of rocks, and ranged/squishy characters will just stand there getting pummeled instead of moving. Why did they remove tactics, again?

[Sidney]

This is incorrect. Barrier Spam is NOT heal spam.
 
For one thing, Barrier is a proactive measure that requires a different playstyle. Secondly, the big difference is that unlike healing when somoene makes it through your barrier, you now have a tangible wound that will not heal itself unless you chug a potion. And chugging a potion means using up a finite resource that won't come back until you make it back to camp.
 
What this means is that Bioware no longer has to design each fight as a potential party wipe, which was the only way to make challenging battles in the previous game. Either you wiped, or you killed the enemies and fully recovered. This is no longer the case: now every encounter can cause tangible harm to your party, if it manages to reduce your health. THIS is why we have a lot less massive brawls in DAI, why we no longer fight for our lives against impossible odds in every encounter.
 
And this is a good thing: every fight is a challenge, you need to play smart and ensure you keep your guard and barrier up, that your tanks do their jobs right to keep aggro off your glass cannons. Because if you don't you'll start losing health and potions, leaving you vulnerable when you finally DO get into a fight design to be a major challenge (like a boss fight).
 
So, to address your last paragraph: NO, the lack of healing does NOT create the hassle of having to trudge back to camp to refill potions. It's your failure in battle that did. Because THAT is the fail condition of regular battles in DAI: a greater than expected loss in HP, requiring you to use potions. The equivalent fail condition in DAO or DA2 would be a total party wipe requiring a reload. The difference is in DAI you still live if you fail, and get the option of going back to camp to refill.
 
Don't want to trudge back to camp needlessly? Then manage your health well in battle, or reload when you do mess up. And if you can't, and you still find yourself going back to camp all the time, then it's time to lower the difficulty.

Barrier doesn't require a different play style. This is a lot of blather than means nothing. You have health = x barrier means your health is x+y. Y can be healed, X can't. Functionally as long as you can maintain barrier you shouldn't take hits. Most of the damage you take, frankly, is more a result at this stage of fighting the control scheme (I jump more in combat, you'd think acting like an idiot would at least distract my foes). There is no different approach to combat with this than healing spam. Is there anything you do now you didn't do in origins or 2? It also isn't smart. You have now changed from casting heal to casting barrier to get through a battle.

In the end, you are right this is an attempt to make trash job fights meaningful by making them accumulate damage. Since they can't or won't make actually interesting fights we now get this. I'm not sure at this point which combat system is worse across all 3 games at this point.

You are wrong about the failure state. You have not taken more damage than you should. Death is a failure state in all 3 games. The biggest difference is that trash mobs fights in origins and 2 didn't require the micromanagement that they do in this game because from the over the shoulder view it is a lot harder to avoid damage just because barrier has just a small area of effect.

[skokie29]

First and foremost, I'm loving this game, but the biggest issue I have with it is how bioware basically declared war on healing. I understand that they want to make the game more tactical, and want to stop potion spamming and the like, they've given us a fair number of abilities to allow us to weather the storm, but overall, the lack of healing is a bit gnawing.

 

Mind you, I'm a person that has always concentrated on healing. In every game I play I look for items that make health regen faster, take abilities to heal over damage increases and the like.

 

As is, I think just a few minor changes would help quite a bit.

 

A) add a heal spell, two ways to limit it would be quite simple, either make it with a high cool down, or make it low impact, meaning it heals for like 100 or something, or even make it slow, combined with a long cool down, make it heal over time instead of instant.

 

Add a slow health regen when not in battle. As it is now, eventually I have to stop exploring and go to a camp so I can get back my health.

 

My solution takes a little bit from Dark Souls.

 

Have a healing ring that slowly re heals you when not in combat. This is a lttile startegy: You have to wear the ring, so it takes up a slot and you don't camp spam to regen health.

 

The idea comes from a ring you wear in Dark Souls where you only lose a certain percentage of your health if you are undead.

[finc.loki]

This is incorrect. Barrier Spam is NOT heal spam.

 

For one thing, Barrier is a proactive measure that requires a different playstyle. Secondly, the big difference is that unlike healing when somoene makes it through your barrier, you now have a tangible wound that will not heal itself unless you chug a potion. And chugging a potion means using up a finite resource that won't come back until you make it back to camp.

 

What this means is that Bioware no longer has to design each fight as a potential party wipe, which was the only way to make challenging battles in the previous game. Either you wiped, or you killed the enemies and fully recovered. This is no longer the case: now every encounter can cause tangible harm to your party, if it manages to reduce your health. THIS is why we have a lot less massive brawls in DAI, why we no longer fight for our lives against impossible odds in every encounter.

 

And this is a good thing: every fight is a challenge, you need to play smart and ensure you keep your guard and barrier up, that your tanks do their jobs right to keep aggro off your glass cannons. Because if you don't you'll start losing health and potions, leaving you vulnerable when you finally DO get into a fight design to be a major challenge (like a boss fight).

 

So, to address your last paragraph: NO, the lack of healing does NOT create the hassle of having to trudge back to camp to refill potions. It's your failure in battle that did. Because THAT is the fail condition of regular battles in DAI: a greater than expected loss in HP, requiring you to use potions. The equivalent fail condition in DAO or DA2 would be a total party wipe requiring a reload. The difference is in DAI you still live if you fail, and get the option of going back to camp to refill.

 

Don't want to trudge back to camp needlessly? Then manage your health well in battle, or reload when you do mess up. And if you can't, and you still find yourself going back to camp all the time, then it's time to lower the difficulty.

Yet it is COMPLETELY pointless.

What part of infinite supply of potions at any camp don't you get? It has only created an ANNOYANCE. Not a challenge.

So what if you wipe, big deal it certainly isn't bigger than having to go back to camp and then trek all the way back to the previous battle again or where you last explored.

If I just spam the "quick save" button and just fight until my party either wins or I wipe, then I hit 'reload" or it does it automatically but I am 10 feet away, instead of having to go back to camp for more potions.

 

WHERE IS THE CHALLENGE.... It is nothing but an annoyance.

 

I get that they limit the potions in a fight. But let us FIND potions in the game world instead.

 

You always take damage, it doesn't matter how much you plan or try to be "proactive", barriers are a 24 sec cooldown and last for 10 seconds. YOU WILL take damage.

So what does this mean. It means ATTRITION of your health until the point of you having to go back to camp for more potions or find a new camp at the risk of wiping at the next battle.

 

"DA: The game of potions" , that is what the game should be called. I find it more annoying than the repetitive environments in DA2, so that tells you how DUMB it is. At least the battles were always fun in DA2, that is what made it bearable when you had to revisit an area.

 

It was 100% more fun and better in DA2 with more enemies and the 'risk of party wipe", it felt visceral and it made you feel powerful, yet at risk too.

It allowed for FUN. Meaning I didn't have to think about potions or going into the next battle with a party of 25% health etc. I knew each battle was it's own challenge.

 

Now instead there are no epic fights, just the TRANSPARENT always 2-4 enemies and if they are your level ALWAYS the same challenge. 

 

it feels idiotic to have random archers and enemies always feel as powerful as you. In DA2 you could wipe the lower level enemies in a fight with ease, made you feel like you hit hard and then when the elites/captains showed up you had another challenge. It was a good combo.

[finc.loki]

I also like to add, Barrier have created a game breaking state in KE.

 

You can if you spec correctly be almost invincible as a Mage Knights Enchanter. You can have barrier up indefinitely which is basically an infinity shield and you can solo dragons.

 

Health spells had timers and it didn't save you from hard hits. Potions also had timers.

 

The fights are always the same in this game, always the same mechanic and same amount of enemies standing around, just like SWTOR. Which was LITTERED with groups of "4 enemies" at every corner. You felt like the weakest Sith Lord ever that had to hit a lowly little enemy 10 times for it to die.

Same in this game. There is nothing EPIC at all about it. It boils down to every single enemy is a one level of damage soaker, either enormous amount of health or big enough on the scrub mobs that you always feel weak.

The "challenge' lies in how long can you go in the game before you need to get to a camp for health potions. It is the DUMBEST mechanic I have ever seen.

 

A fast travel button away lies a full refresh of health and all your potions. The punishment for this infinite supply? That you now have to backtrack the WHOLE way back to where you were, facing the respawned enemies along the way, or just the pure annoyance trekking back through the same already explored area.

 

I don't get how so many cannot see this transparent game mechanic... 

[DrekorSilverfang]

I think the implementation is ok... you still have healing potions and regen potions along with guard and barrier everything works out well. However I find the logic they gave for removing healing... ridiculous. They basically wanted to move away from forcing you to use a healer. Now not only do you need a mage with barrier but you also need a tank for guard. They've made the problem they wanted to solve significantly worse.

[phoenix fang55]

Wow, did not expect this to get this much attention, my threads tend not to.

 

Alright, after some more playing time I'm less in hate with lack of healing and much more in hate in how simplified tactics are. I don't like to micro manage, I like giving them a set of instructions to follow 95% of the time and then giving a correction here or there.

 

As it is now, without healing, and with tactics the way they are, it just blows. I like that each move has a set of tactics, but I want to be able to adjust the instances. for example, I'd tell Solas to cast barrier on a specific party member or when one falls below a certain threshold of health.

 

As tactics are now, I constantly find my warriors turning away from enemies and exposing their backs to them to attack what targets I choose, as an archer this is quite annoying, as I'll target the tougher targets to widdle them down or slow them down, but then my warriors will start charging through countless adds to get to them.

 

Honestly DA2 was much more balanced, I honestly never felt the need to bring a healer, especially in the later game, though I did love playing a healing mage, and now thats gone. You could even bring along a revival grenade, one of my best parties was me as archer, Merril as a primal mage, thinks that it was, earth and lightning magic, Aveline and Isabella.

 

Overall, the lack of tactics without micromanaging using tac cam combined with lack of healing, combat just isn't as fun, and its a shame, the abilities are great to use, for my char its great, but watching my allies get pounded is just grr...not to mention, I like playing healers, would have really loved that in multiplayer.

[Lethys1]

I like not having healing spells.  I find it is more liberating exploring the abilities of my mages without having to worry about healing my characters.  

 

You still need barrier, so it's identical to what it was.  Except now with barrier.  So I completely disagree with what you're saying.

[Lethys1]

I think the implementation is ok... you still have healing potions and regen potions along with guard and barrier everything works out well. However I find the logic they gave for removing healing... ridiculous. They basically wanted to move away from forcing you to use a healer. Now not only do you need a mage with barrier but you also need a tank for guard. They've made the problem they wanted to solve significantly worse.

This completely.  I now can't really be a dps 2h warrior because he needs to have some way of generating guard.  I also can't have a pure DPS or crowd control mage because all mages are required to have barrier, or they're useless no matter how much damage they do.

 

The problems with this game's combat imbalance only become clear later on.  It's such a shame.  This game has an enormous amount of promise and potential, and the stuff you actually do in it is really cool.  It's such a damn shame that it takes this many hours to find out its true failings.  I'll have to bump down the difficulty during the rest of this play through to normal and then hopefully await a patch that fixes some of the more egregious issues.

[Smittyry17]

How often do you guys need To go back to camp? Granted I play on hard not nightmare. But I was running around fighting and exploring and only went back at the end of my 2 hour section. I even was close to a camp since I establish them like that's the only thing the inquisition does.

[TheImmortalBeaver]

I'm actually a bit surprised at the focus on Barrier. Sure, it can get pretty darn good if you become a Knight Enchanter, but for the most part my party mages aren't even specialized to use it. It's one option of many to avoid taking damage, including Guard and the variety of blocking and counter skills Warriors and Rogues get. Resting does seem to respawn enemies, so it seems like the way health potions restock is supposed to be somewhat reminiscent of Dark Souls, and I actually don't mind that mechanic in the context of Dragon Age.

 

The only possible issue I might have is the new Revive mechanic, but I feel like that's just included to provide further options outside of always rolling with mages spec'd into support.