733 réponses à ce sujet

[cyph]

What's the feeling on AOE daggers?  I've been trying one in my main hand, and while the animations seem like it makes more convenient to get the hit boxes when you do get the opportunity to unleash a barrage of normal attacks, my feeling is that I'm sacrificing my ability to stealth one hit damagewise.

 

My feeling is that AOE damage is for 2H warriors. Rogues' role is burst damage, concentrated killing, and frankly, on nightmare, it's not possible to one shot enemies unless it's a focus special (or you get a very lucky critical combo). You need as much burst damage as possible and you don't want to draw aggro from more than one enemy at a time so AOE damage is asking for trouble on nightmare.

[Zenthar Aseth]

The fact that a few people have made it work does not mean it's not terrible. In fact it's evidence that it is. Regardless of player skill, the fact is that you are dancing around hitboxes, having to hold down attack and position yourself just right, while an archer can just stand back and do about the same damage. Add to that the fact that companions always follow you into battle, so you are constantly having to reposition (with the gutted interface for doing so) while carefully managing your own positioning. It is much harder than other options, and if you can manage it, hats off to you, but one class is not supposed to be harder than others. Classes are supposed to be different without a steep difficulty gradient between them, and melee rogue fails this test badly.

 

Granted, DA2 had the same problem, but you could make a non weapon-specific build and switch between bow and daggers as needed, which you cannot do here.

Nope. A lot of people have made it work great. Which is evidence that those who can't play it are doing it wrong. If it was terrible, a lot of people wouldn't be doing great with it -- it'd be impossible. 

 

Companions always follow you into battle? Huh? You know you can change who they follow/defend, right, and it's on "controlled character" only by default?

 

DW rogue is better and more fun than other classes I've tried.

[cyph]

The fact that a few people have made it work does not mean it's not terrible. In fact it's evidence that it is. Regardless of player skill, the fact is that you are dancing around hitboxes, having to hold down attack and position yourself just right, while an archer can just stand back and do about the same damage. Add to that the fact that companions always follow you into battle, so you are constantly having to reposition (with the gutted interface for doing so) while carefully managing your own positioning. It is much harder than other options, and if you can manage it, hats off to you, but one class is not supposed to be harder than others. Classes are supposed to be different without a steep difficulty gradient between them, and melee rogue fails this test badly.

 

Granted, DA2 had the same problem, but you could make a non weapon-specific build and switch between bow and daggers as needed, which you cannot do here.

 

I'm not sure your complaint here. Nightmare difficulty is not for everyone. "Normal" is the difficulty for everyone. I've shown that the game can be played in real time on nightmare, with no babysitting of your party members. I spec the team members to compliment my class and spec abilities. I also set the tactics correctly and the AI is very good, keeping me and themselves up with barriers, setting up combos for me, and they hardly ever die. My tank is invincible and sets guard perfectly. My two mages stun locks the enemies. My entire party hardly ever dies, and I rarely have to pause. I say this not to brag, but to explain that the system works, the combat is fun, and the AI is smart enough to keep you alive as well as destroy the enemies. In my previous video, I killed two archers, and the rest of my party killed the two shield templars, all by themselves. They kept my barrier up automatically and none of them had a scratch. The AI is *smart* but you have to know how to set up their TACTICS, turn off the ones they don't need, spec their abilities correctly, and set the preferred ability that you want them to use. 

 

The tactics *work*. The fact that you no longer have to learn (simple) programming is a benefit to the majority of non-hard core gamers out there. The tactics programming is already set by the developers so that the casual players can play it without getting confused. Do I wish that they let me fine tune the tactics? Sure. But really, I hardly die at all and I don't have to babysit the AI. So that means, if users are having problems, they're probably not setting it optimally. Just because it doesn't work for certain players does not mean the system is broken.

 

I mean, if you need more proof, I can show you how I destroy an entire keep in real time without dying on nightmare. That means that nightmare requires knowledge of the system, tactics set up properly, and ability spec to complement your play style. The fact that one person finds it difficult and another doesn't means that on nightmare, it requires (1) skills (and knowledge of how to apply certain abilities and enemies attack patterns),(2) tactics system work (you have to know how to set it up) and (3) ability speccing knowledge (one spec may kill you, and another may allow you to steam roll). Just because it's not like ORIGINS (which was an awful combat system), doesn't mean it's broken.

 

I for one, really love this combat system, and love it even more on nightmare. Once you figure it out, it's really not difficult at all. Trust me, I had trouble on nightmare on Act 1 and died over and over again until I figured it out. It's up to you if you want to put in the effort to get to know the system or just complain that it's broken like the rest of the folks out there.

[Khevar]

cyph, if you have time, would you mind putting together a guide on what you've found out about AI and tactics?

 

I've been having plenty of fun in my NM playthrough, but I have to do some serious micromanaging to not get destroyed.  On particularly difficult fights (e.g. Envy demon), I ended up completely disabling ALL abilities and tactics and giving everyone instructions each step of the way.

 

Based on your experiences, it sounds like there's aspects to the AI and tactics system that you've figured out that could really help me out.

[cyph]

Here is what I *think* how the system works. This doesn't mean that it's true. I may be totally off base on how I believe that it works. The AI will randomly pick an ability that it will select from when given the opportunity. So let's say there are 8 abilities, it will randomly pick one to use. So it will go down the list of abilities that are not on cool down. Now, if you want the AI to use shield wall, then make sure you set it as preferred. So if it's getting attacked, it will always pick the preferred ability first before it goes to the normal ones (or there may be a slightly randomization involved). So if you want the tank to use shield wall when it's getting attacked, set it as preferred and nothing else. If you have three abilities at preferred, it will select randomly from those three abilities. So tank->shield wall->preferred will make the tank impregnable unless he's surrounded (even then, the right passive abilities will negate most of that).

 

Mages. You can use them as glass cannons or, better yet, crowd control that takes enemies out of the fight. You want them to stay AWAY from the enemy. So spells like winter's grasp? Absolutely awesome. There's a reason Bioware set this as Sola's default spell. Spells that stuns enemies > spells that damage enemies. Spells that protect the party > spells that stuns the enemies. Passives than draw less aggro > passives that increase damage. Passives that decrease aggro > passives that increase damage. Under hard or lower, you can go full offense. Under nightmare, you have to go defensive! You not getting hit > you hitting the enemies.

 

As a rogue, you are a one man army. You can and will do more than 50% of the party's offensive damage. Between getting a devastating combo versus evading an attack, you should always pick evade. Vanish if you have more than one enemy targeting you. Two shots from an archer, and you're toast.

 

If you set the party tactics to defend or follow your tank, don't be surprised if they rush in to help out and get too close. Don't surprised if they commit suicide. Set the party to follow themselves, thus following their class abilities. Mages, and archers stay in range. The knight enchanters have the spirit sword spell that's very effective against bosses. But alas, it requires them to get to melee range. Therefore, disable it. Don't be afraid to disable certain skills. It's never worth it to get an extra hit that put your mage in danger of getting one shotted. The danger of getting one-shotted overrides any potential value of the ability!

 

If you're not controlling the rogue, then the rogue should be an archer. If you're controlling the rogue, then and only then should you be a DW rogue. Rogues are invincible when played by the human player. However, bosses can and will one shot you if you're careless. DW rogues are dead meat under the AI. The AI is horrible at dodging hits so you can't count on any of the dodging abilities for rogues. Shield wall, for some reason, works really well on tanks. It's probably because they can take tons of hits before dying. Under nightmare, most elites and bosses will one shot your rogue (if you don't have barriers or guard). It's pointless to have a melee rogue controlled by the AI. 

 

Here is an example of 4 vs 6 enemies, with one being an elite boss that can and will one shot a rogue or mage. Note how the tank builds tons of guard, and even when she's a punching bag, she's basically invulnerable. If your tank is getting destroyed, then review what passives she's getting, the tactics and behaviors, and what abilities you set on her.

 

 

Note how the mages are throwing down fire mine on an incapacitated enemy? It's not brain dead! Then it throws pull of the abyss on a group that pulls all five templars into one point? Beautiful, easy detonation combo for sunder, weakened, and poison, that hits all five for half their life bar. You want to set abilities that complement each other so that they can combo off of your stuns as well! They mage pulled a rupture combo off of my rogue's stun. Finally, the one death was the AI controlled mage. I gave them fade cloak as preferred yet it didn't work. It happens. Although he did cast the slow time spell properly. As you can see, I prefer crowd control spells over damage spells. Enemies unable to hit > enemies getting hit. The AI is not brain dead, but you have to give them the right abilities and tell them what ability to use and how often. Your party AI are way smarter than the enemies. As long as they have health potions to gulp, they usually won't die, or at least, they will only die after they help wipe out most of the enemies on the field.

 

If you decide to use the tactical cam, it's possible to keep your party alive at all time just by telling them to move out of the way of a direct hit. Fade step and fade cloak under tactical cam will make your mages invulnerable.

[Lucrece]

Using stealth to rez reliably is also a pretty good use of the ability.

 

Also for dragons if you're not a mage just switch to vivienne when it flies up or readies a projectile so you can reflect it back to him since the AI is too dumb to reliably use spirit blade and fade cloak/step. It'll save you a lot of damage sinc ethe AI DOES NOT AVOID AOE. AI will walk over ground on fire and take damage for no reason, because it's AI so get used to your hold position and tactical cam assignments.

[Xionanx]

I play NM like Cyph does.. I don't pause, can't stand the tac-cam..  I also live stream my play on youtube while I'm doing it.

 

The thing I have noticed about NM difficulty is that gear is way more important then "levels" and setting up your party with the right gear makes the game way easier..  granted there have been a few fights where I just got cheesed.. nothing like going into a rift with 3 "nightmares" who all decide to spam their AoE on you.. no amount of jumping out of the way works when they are chaining that ****....

 

But yeah, NM isn't as "hard" as its made out to be.

[Selea]

The fact that a few people have made it work does not mean it's not terrible. In fact it's evidence that it is. Regardless of player skill, the fact is that you are dancing around hitboxes, having to hold down attack and position yourself just right, while an archer can just stand back and do about the same damage. 

No, you can't, neither remotely. Archer rogue does much less damage than DW (if played right). There's not even a comparison.
 

It is much harder than other options, and if you can manage it, hats off to you, but one class is not supposed to be harder than others. Classes are supposed to be different without a steep difficulty gradient between them, and melee rogue fails this test badly.

Really powerful classes always require expertise to handle them, elsewhere they suck. It is the case with every RPG. The more "professional" the build is and the more it requires you to handle it well to get its full potential.

Moreover 90% of the problems of people that insist the DW rogue is weak is just because they want to play it as a secondary warrior. If you stop doing such then everything immediately changes. You can play the "secondary warrior" if you want when you acquire +guard gear (and you can do it as early as getting to Skyhold, so no middlegame as some said), but I personally don't like to do so.

 

Granted, DA2 had the same problem, but you could make a non weapon-specific build and switch between bow and daggers as needed, which you cannot do here.

 

Really? In DA2 DW rogues were so completely overpowered as to be insane. You could actually play as a full warrior while retaining the incredible DPS of a rogue. Tell me how that's not utterly broken.

Bioware did well to go away from that since it made no sense whatsoever. I cannot either fathom how someone can say that DA2 DW rogues had "problems", seriously.

[Magma_Axis]

No, you can't, neither remotely. Archer rogue does much less damage than DW (if played right). There's not even a comparison.
 


Really powerful classes always require expertise to handle them, elsewhere they suck. It is the case with every RPG. The more "professional" the build is and the more it requires you to handle it well to get its full potential.
Moreover 90% of the problems of people that insist the DW rogue is weak is just because they want to play it as a secondary warrior. If you stop doing such then everything immediately changes. You can do this only when you acquire +guard gear, but I personally don't like to do so.
 

Really? In DA2 DW rogues were so completely overpowered as to be insane. You could actually play as a full warrior while retaining the incredible DPS of a rogue. Tell me how that's not utterly broken.
Bioware did well to go away from that since it made no sense whatsoever. I cannot either fathom how someone can say that DA2 DW rogues had "problems", seriously.

Yeah, DA2 Cunning Rogue. No wonder we cant put attribute points now. Bioware should make new attribute system though, one that cant easily exploited but still retain player freedom to craft builds

[Zenthar Aseth]

snip

A very helpful post, thanks. Didn't even think about setting companions to follow themselves, should fix a couple of minor issues I've had.

[skokie29]

Archer Rogue cannot put up as much damage as DW Rogue. It isn't even close.

[Matth85]

Archer Rogue cannot put up as much damage as DW Rogue. It isn't even close.

I disagree. Not counting focus abilities, an archer can match a DW rogues damage over time. Of course, You can't beat them at burst, but that's the selling point of DW rogue. Though what situation do we speak of here?

Specializations?

Boss? 

Do they start damage at the same time?

How long?

[Sevitan7]

Perhaps we should just face the truth. The game is very gear dependent and the main factor in how much difficult of a time you will have is the quality of your gear. Your level means almost nothing and combat effectiveness is mostly tied to gear, which is the main source of gaining passive bonuses. You can overcome having bad gear with skilful play and proper tactics, but melee rogues experience the imbalances and flaws of the system the most due to the lack of passive mitigation and terrible controls; yet they become immortal blenders of destruction like everyone else with good gear.

 

To be honest, I don't think I have ever played a more flawed and poorly balanced game from Bioware.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Perhaps we should just face the truth. The game is very gear dependent and the main factor in how much difficult of a time you will have is the quality of your gear. Your level means almost nothing and combat effectiveness is mostly tied to gear, which is the main source of gaining passive bonuses. You can overcome having bad gear with skilful play and proper tactics, but melee rogues experience the imbalances and flaws of the system the most due to the lack of passive mitigation and terrible controls; yet they become immortal blenders of destruction like everyone else with good gear.

 

To be honest, I don't think I have ever played a more flawed and poorly balanced game from Bioware.

If you don't want to minmax, play on Hard. You can do just great even without crafted gear.

[Sevitan7]

If you don't want to minmax, play on Hard. You can do just great even without crafted gear.

 

But I already beat the game on Nightmare. And had a significantly far easier time than in the first 2 Dragon Age games.

 

But you're right, using sub-par gear is likely the best way to change this game from a keyboard faceroll into something that requires tactics.

[Selea]

I disagree. Not counting focus abilities, an archer can match a DW rogues damage over time. Of course, You can't beat them at burst, but that's the selling point of DW rogue. Though what situation do we speak of here?

Specializations?

Boss? 

Do they start damage at the same time?

How long?

 

Sustained damage is always inferior to burst damage. The only circumstance into which sustained damage is stronger than burst is when you are solo or you don't posses in the party someone to draw aggro. In all the other cases burst damage wins hands on. You can see this clearly on PvP, for example, where the best builds are always spike damage ones.

Moreover it's pbvious that on overall damage the DW rogue is a clear winner from pure numbers: daggers have more base damage than bows and they are two. Many abilities in the DW tree hit two times, for example. To not even talk of the +crit dmg and +attack that DW rogues have (archer rogues are more based on +cunning instead that doesn't increase attack, the most powerful attribute after flanking) and the fact that flanking is much easier to build (again because the weapons are two) and execute with a DW rogue.

Simply speaking and as I said earlier: there's not comparison if we talk of damage. 

[Matth85]

Dragon age games were never difficult to begin with. If anything, I think they did a great job with High Dragons this time around!

Take DA:O for one. I soloed it as a DW Rogue, as a non-AW Mage and as a 2h Warrior. No problems at all. In DA:2 It was either no problems to solo, or otherwise faceroll, it. You just had to hump around a certain rocky boss for 140 minutes.

 

DA:I did a better job at balancing. If you play smart, you win. If you play bad, you die. When DA:I was released (you know.. like... last week?... er..) I was told 2 things on these forums, regarding rogues;

1) tempest was OP.

2) DW rogue was unplayable.

 

What do I know now?

1) Assassin and Artificer both outshine Tempest at certain points.

2) DW Rogue is a monster.

 

What changed between the 2 things? The game did not become easier. Nothing was patched regarding difficulty. Knowledge happened. 2 days ago people would swear Artificer was the odd one out and nobody should use it. Today I will til you artificer beats Tempest, and is only outshined by Mark of Death in Assassination.

As somebody said in another thread: It's like bringing a gattling gun to a musketeer fight. 

There is also the whole AI business. It's horrible, but you learn to live with it. Once you adapt, you overcome. That's how life work, and thus how games work.

 

But, if you want a challenge:

 

No mage playthrough

No overlevel playthrough (If the recommended level is 15-19, you go at 15 maximum)

No specialization Playthrough

No crafting playthrough

Solo Playthrough

Only X class playthrough

You and varrics duo adventure playthrough

Speed run on Nightmare

Try something new. No cookie-cutter setup (1 mage + tank + 2 dps, 2 mages + 1 dps + tank). Try new builds that seem odd. 

 

The list is endless. Crafted gear is broken, and we know it. You can get Tier 2 schematics in Hinterlands. As soon as you get Skyhold you can also get Tier 3 schematics and endgame gear. Avoiding this adds for a challenge.

 

I, for one, got a couple of things planned before I leave DA:I.

1) 100% playthrough on multiple classes. (2h warrior, DW rogue, archer rogue, dps mage)

2) Solo Nightmare Mage and solo Nightmare DW rogue or 2h warrior.

 

 

 

Sustained damage is always inferior to burst damage. The only circumstance into which sustained damage is stronger than burst is when you are solo or you don't posses in the party someone to draw aggro. In all the other cases burst damage wins hands on.

Moreover it's pbvious that on overall damage the DW rogue is a clear winner from pure numbers: daggers have more base damage than bows and they are two. Many abilities in the DW tree hit two times, for example. To not even talk of the +crit and +attack that DW rogues have (archer rogues are more based on +cunning insead) and the fact that flanking (that's one of the most powerful attributes after %attack) is much easier with a DW rogue.

Simply speaking and as I said earlier: there's not comparison if we talk of damage. 

Negative. Sustained damage is perfectly viable pre-faceroll gear. At which it doesn't matter, as a High Dragon dies in 15 second flat on Nightmare as an artificer anyways. If an assassin can do it in 5, would it matter?

 

How is it obvious? Based on what? your feeling? By the time you get your rogue close to an enemy, I have killed the whole pack. Obviously a DW rogue will burst down a single archer faster than an Archer Rogue -- but by the time the DW rogue reaches the archer the Archer Rogue has killed 2 archers and a mauler.

 

I love both classes, and feel they both compare in damage. Saying "There's not a comparison" requires numbers. Without it, what you say doesn't hold up. An Archer rogue holds up to a DW rogue. Sustained damage is not inferior to burst, unless we get to the point stuff dies in a second. At that point, however, it's irrelevant who is better -- stuff dies in seconds flat.

Both a dw rogue and an archer rogue want crit and crit damage. Flank is outshined by attack%, and rarely worth the time. By the time you can use that flank, the archer got 6 arrows stuck into 3 dead targets. 

 

My point is simple: They are comparable. They both do good dps. The DW rogue annihilates enemies 1 by one. The Archer murders them long before the melee reaches them. I am happy to discuss numbers and theorycraft with you -- but I don't like assumption which is without any facts. 

[Selea]

Well, crafted gear is almost always broken since it is something that's very difficult to balance. It should obviously be better than normal gear you can find or buy around and on the highest level better than even the rarest gear and yet rare gear should be already enough powerful  by itself to win and have strong builds in the game for those that don't want to craft.

Hence crafting almost always results in OP builds and there's little for the devs to do about it. Either you don't permit to craft gear or if you do then you know that after a while when the various ways to do things are discovered the crafting system will render builds OP.

The best way to retain challenge in the game is to not craft and use only the items you find. There are plenty of powerful rare items around that aren't OP, however, differently from those you craft yourself (even at lowest tier of crafting you can craft items that always are more damaging than even the most rare item you can find around 1-2 levels above yours). Nightmare becomes really challenging in this way and in fact I'm doing a run now playing with no crafting. Much more fun, even if only because in this way you actually get to experience the itemization more. 

[Khevar]

Sustained damage is always inferior to burst damage.

 

I agree.  Particularly with the benefit that a rogue brings to the team, which is rapidly reducing incoming damage by quickly killing weak mobs.  Find archer and one/two shot it, find mage and one/two shot it, etc. etc.

 

Instantly bursting down troublesome mobs takes pressure off the rest of the group.

 

The only time (in my opinion) that sustain is better, is in a single-target-long-duration fight.  There are very few such fights in this game, and Thousand Cuts with good daggers (assuming a three-tier full focus bar) more than makes up for it.

[Khevar]

By the time you get your rogue close to an enemy, I have killed the whole pack. Obviously a DW rogue will burst down a single archer faster than an Archer Rogue -- but by the time the DW rogue reaches the archer the Archer Rogue has killed 2 archers and a mauler.

 

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe you.

 

Even when I don't initiate combat, I can get to the first archer in the back in 2 seconds with Flank Attack.

 

Show me a video of you killing 2 archers and a mauler in that time.  Go ahead.  I'll wait.

[lastpawn]

Dragon age games were never difficult to begin with.

 

I get what you mean, but I'd say instead that they were all difficult to begin with but then became progressively easier, even trivial, as the game progressed and you get the right combination of talents + equipment. It's like Bioware developers never get the difficulty curve quite right on higher difficulties (perhaps hardly surprising, since most games outside of Souls series are made for people who don't want to "lose" in a game).

 

If it wasn't for a HUGE jump in equipment power, and some of the worst combat bugs/"features" were fixed, DA:I combat would be amazing. It's fun for me as-is even now, but I do prefer action to tactical combat.

[Zenthar Aseth]

snip

How is assassin better than Tempest?

[Selea]

How is it obvious? Based on what? your feeling? By the time you get your rogue close to an enemy, I have killed the whole pack. Obviously a DW rogue will burst down a single archer faster than an Archer Rogue -- but by the time the DW rogue reaches the archer the Archer Rogue has killed 2 archers and a mauler.

It is obvious because removing targets of opportunity as fast as possible is the most important part. Moreover doing huge bursts of damage is more important in case of healing (that's not the case here but it is a general point).

As for what you say about the archer it's just hyperbole. There's absolutely NO way you can kill targets faster with an archer than you can with a DW. This is just a blatant lie. In the time you kill a SINGLE enemy with an archer you can destroy a whole group with a DW and this is a fact, because the majority of enemies are not bosses with a lot of HPs so burst damage will kill things in 1-2 shots while sustained damage will require time (this is more evident in higher difficulties where normal enemies have more HPs but not enough to compensate the burst damage of a DW, but enough to  have the archer employ time to kill them). There are many abilities the rogue has to reach targets fast (and in the vast majority of cases, then, enemies are neither so far away); the time lost is negligible and when you are there you obliterate moderate HP targets with burst damage, while instead sustained damage naturally requires some time.

Just compare youtube videos of DW players vs archer ones and it's evident that the time required to kill a normal enemy is much more in the case of the archer. It is not rocket science to understand why, btw.
 

 

I love both classes, and feel they both compare in damage. Saying "There's not a comparison" requires numbers. Without it, what you say doesn't hold up. 

 

I already shown you numbers. Go in the theorycraft thread and see which are the two most important attributes. They are +flanking and +attack, both of which the DW rogue can acquire (or has) leaps above the archer and for what it concerns flanking it is much more difficult to employ for an archer. Moreover, as I already said to you, the daggers have MORE dps than a bow and they are TWO (and many abilities in the DW tree hit with both). Simple math is not an opinion.

Add to this all the synergy with the stealth tree for instant criticals (so that crit dmg becomes as relevant as attack and flanking and the primary attribute of DW rogues is dex that increases crit dmg and attack) and you do the rest.

I did explain all of this before but you obviously played the "blind card" trying to fake you never noticed it.

[Matth85]

How is assassin better than Tempest?

Assassin:

Armor penetration - dps boost

Mark of death - probably the most OP non-focus ability in the game. The burst output is insane.

Crit on stealth and stealth reset after kill

 

Tempest:

Flask of fire - your only dps ability. You get 3-4 abilities off during it.

Flask of lightning - you do the same dps as before, but time slows down. Surivability boost, not dps boost, in the case you control the inquisitor.

Flask of frost - aurvivability.

 

It is obvious because removing targets of opportunity as fast as possible is the most important part.

 

 

And yet again: before you can reach the target as melee, an archer has allready killed it. Unless you can show me enemies that got more than 11k health? Because that is what a long shot can hit. Full drawn - first target dead. Long shot - second target dead. Explosion shot - everybody down. New long shot - third target down. By now you are behind the target and kill him via a Twin Fangs --> Deathblow.

 

As for what you say about the archer it's just hyperbole. There's absolutely NO way you can kill targets faster with an archer than you can with a DW.

 

Based on? You have yet to answer regarding situation and specialization. 

 

 In the time you kill a SINGLE enemy with an archer you can destroy a whole group with a DW and this is a fact,

 

You do realize what you sound like, right? :/ If we want to discuss fact, we should provide it. neither of us are providing any good facts.

 

There are many abilities the rogue has to reach targets fast (and in the vast majority of cases, then, enemies are neither so far away);

 

There is! But at the same time, as soon as a target is target-able, it can be shot. This means as an archer you can have multiple abilities down on the enemies before melee reaches them.

 

Just compare youtube videos of DW players vs archer

 

This isn't how "facts" work. We'd need a controlled scenario with somebody who plays equal efficient, in equal situation. I speak from experience via min/maxing both a DW and a ranged rogue, not random Joes youtube montage of killing High Dragons. 

 

I already shown you numbers. Go in the theorycraft thread and see which are the two most important attributes. They are +flanking and +attack, both of which the DW rogue can acquire (or has) leaps above the archer and for what it concerns flanking it is much more difficult to employ for an archer. 

 

I am aware of the numbers. You just don't actually do them justice. Flanking is good - but wasted more times than not. Attack is flat out better. But you also speak as if DW and archer are two different classes: They uses the same attributes. The only difference is a DW might opt for some flanking if he struggle to get attack, or a Artificer archer might go heavier into crit. There is no prefference for DW to get Attack over Archer. Not that it matters anyways: At that point we are min/maxing end game. At that point the difference is between a High dragon dead in 20 seconds, or 5 seconds. Does that really matter? 

 

Moreover, as I already said to you, the daggers have MORE dps than a bow and they are TWO (and many abilities in the DW tree hit with both). Simple math is not an opinion.

 

I don't udnerstand why you keep pushing that onto me. Have I ever said anything regarding weapon damage? Do you base your efficiency with dps on the damage per abilitty? Obviously Deathblow hits harder than Long shot. Full Draw also hits harder than Twin Fangs -- what of it? It's irrelevant, and as you said; It's not an opinion. Neither mine nor yous. 

 

Add to this all the synergy with the stealth tree for instant criticals (so that crit dmg becomes as relevant as attack and flanking and the primary attribute of DW rogues is dex that increases crit dmg and attack) and you do the rest.

 

DW rogue don't get guaranteed critical on stealth -- assassination does. And we are not comparing assassination rogues here, we are comparing flat out DW vs Archer. Obviously DW assassin rouge hits the hardest of them all, due to Mark of Death. At the same time, an optimized Artificer Archer will have a long shot, doing 7k-11k damage, every 1-2 seconds. But that is all irrelevant -- we are not discussing either.

 

As noted, I am not disagreeing a DW rogue descimate enemies, and cleans house. I am merely disagreeing with the statement: "Archer Rogue cannot put up as much damage as DW Rogue. It isn't even close.". It is close -- even if a DW rogue goes ahead, it's close. It's not one-sided as some wants it to be. 

 

@Khevar

I'm sorry, but I just don't believe you.

 

That's okay. I don't require you to believe me.

 

I am not blindly holding on faith here, and I can be proven wrong. But without facts, I hold on to what I know after 3 Nightmare playthroughs. I am also not saying DW rogues are bad -- I do believe they are marginally better than archers overall(In terms of dps), and a good deal ahed in close-quarter areas. But not comparable? Nope. That's simply not true.

 

This is getting weird. I agree to disagree and leave it at that. This is beyond pointless, and a waste of time for everybody. 

[Zenthar Aseth]

Assassin:

Armor penetration - dps boost

Mark of death - probably the most OP non-focus ability in the game. The burst output is insane.

Crit on stealth and stealth reset after kill

 

Tempest:

Flask of fire - your only dps ability. You get 3-4 abilities off during it.

Flask of lightning - you do the same dps as before, but time slows down. Surivability boost, not dps boost, in the case you control the inquisitor.

Flask of frost - aurvivability.

Well, Flask of Lightning kind of is DPS as well, since it's "free damage" for X seconds. 

 

Asking because having a hard time choosing between these two specializations for my rogue. Assassin sounds more fun, I guess.