733 réponses à ce sujet

[Matth85]

Well, Flask of Lightning kind of is DPS as well, since it's "free damage" for X seconds. 

 

Asking because having a hard time choosing between these two specializations for my rogue. Assassin sounds more fun, I guess.

Yes and no. 

On Sera, Flask of lightning is a dps increase, since her speed increase.

On you, however, no dps is gained. Think about it: Time slows down. You do the exact same dps as you did earlier. The only difference is that your team doesn't do anything, and the enemy doesn't do anything. In theory, then yes -- you do more dps. But in reality(as in you, playing), your dps does no increase.

 

Don't dismiss tempest though. If you want a changed playstyle, ala: not stealth-based, then tempest is very nice!

[Selea]

And yet again: before you can reach the target as melee, an archer has allready killed it. Unless you can show me enemies that got more than 11k health? Because that is what a long shot can hit. Full drawn - first target dead. Long shot - second target dead. Explosion shot - everybody down. New long shot - third target down. By now you are behind the target and kill him via a Twin Fangs --> Deathblow.

 

Full Draw requires about 4 seconds to fire. Long Shot about 2. Add to this the time to hit and it is about 8 seconds. Do you know what a DW rogue can do in 8 seconds? You clearly never tried a powerful DW build and it shows. No, in 8 seconds I'm not just behind a target hitting Twin Fangs, I've killed 4 targets around me while you are just at the second target. Then after those two good luck on killing the others since the only two burst damage abilities are gone given the cooldowns and you need to rely on normal attacks (it's hilarious you tried to prove me wrong using burst damage skills btw). After the two targets are down you have only Long Shot as a burst damage (even admitting it will work as such), as Full Draw requires 24 seconds to be available again. You have no cycling burst abilities, simple as that. DW has three 8 seconds burst abilities. one of which, Deathblow, that has no cooldown at all if it kills the target and so it can be chained forever (plus a passive that recovers 50 stamina on every kill so you can use those abilities). How can there even be a comparison on burst damage?

Btw explosion shot? Are you serious now?

P.S: You naturally took the best scenario possible where Long Shot does actually something (i.e. only on the FIRST round on a LARGE environment). But it doesn't matter anyway. Even pretending that you can use Long Shot every 10 seconds and to always do enough damage to kill, between those 10 seconds of gap a DW has cleared the room from targets of opportunity.

 

 

 

Based on? You have yet to answer regarding situation and specialization. 

 

 

You have made an example above and I've shown you how all you say is just hyperbole. You just consider what you like and discard all the rest, case in point the time required for the only two burst abilities of an archer to fire and that after you are without anything at all.
 

 

You do realize what you sound like, right? :/ If we want to discuss fact, we should provide it. neither of us are providing any good facts.

 

It's a fact that in 8 seconds a DW rogue can kill 4 (or even 5 depending on the build) normal enemies. You cannot with an archer.

 

There is! But at the same time, as soon as a target is target-able, it can be shot. This means as an archer you can have multiple abilities down on the enemies before melee reaches them.

A normal shot does not enough damage to kill an enemy and in fact the skills you used in your example where, guess what, burst damage abilities. The fact is that DW rogue has a lot of them, archer no matter the build doesn't. So the bulk of the damage done is not in bursts but sustained and there's a lot of difference between the two.

 

This isn't how "facts" work. We'd need a controlled scenario with somebody who plays equal efficient, in equal situation. I speak from experience via min/maxing both a DW and a ranged rogue, not random Joes youtube montage of killing High Dragons. 

 

 

No, you don't because you clearly didn't either know that in the time 2 of the only burst abilities of an archer rogue are fired a DW rogue can kill double that amount. So it's obvious that you haven't played DW rogue as much as an archer or you would know already. I played both so I know, as everybody that has played both to a good extent.

It is simply undefendable the theory that you can kill normal targets faster with an archer because the archer has not as many burst abilities as a DW. The type of damage of an archer is sustained, not in burst (and you either admitted it in the beginning, also if now you tried to prove the contrary but it didn't work so well).

 

I am aware of the numbers. You just don't actually do them justice. Flanking is good - but wasted more times than not. Attack is flat out better. But you also speak as if DW and archer are two different classes: They uses the same attributes. The only difference is a DW might opt for some flanking if he struggle to get attack, or a Artificer archer might go heavier into crit. There is no prefference for DW to get Attack over Archer. Not that it matters anyways: At that point we are min/maxing end game. At that point the difference is between a High dragon dead in 20 seconds, or 5 seconds. Does that really matter? 

No, they don't use the same attributes. Different trees go for different attributes and even starting attributes are different. Archer goes more for cunning, DW more for dexterity. As for specs, Assassin is the one most focused on dexterity, Tempest a mix and Artificer not at all. Really it's obvious that you have not done a research at all on this point because all you are saying is completely, utterly, wrong. You can compensate a little with crafting but it will never be good. The best option is to have crafting go in the direction the class and spec goes.
As for flanking a DW uses flanking as bread and butter (not because it "struggle to get attack"; what the hell? Are you serious?) and it's obvious that it is much easier to get behind enemies in melee.

 

I don't udnerstand why you keep pushing that onto me. Have I ever said anything regarding weapon damage? Do you base your efficiency with dps on the damage per abilitty? Obviously Deathblow hits harder than Long shot. Full Draw also hits harder than Twin Fangs -- what of it? It's irrelevant, and as you said; It's not an opinion. Neither mine nor yous. 

 

 

I keep pushing it into you because the damage you do is primarily based on weapon damage and this is even most important for burst damage with abilities that work at a percentual because that percentual gets applied AFTER armor.

 

 

DW rogue don't get guaranteed critical on stealth -- assassination does. And we are not comparing assassination rogues here, we are comparing flat out DW vs Archer. Obviously DW assassin rouge hits the hardest of them all, due to Mark of Death. At the same time, an optimized Artificer Archer will have a long shot, doing 7k-11k damage, every 1-2 seconds. But that is all irrelevant -- we are not discussing either.

 

I supposed you were talking about Assassin since you said that the spec was the best along artificer (but artificer don't go along with DW so I took assassin for it).
Long shot every 1-2 seconds? What drug did you use? It takes more time to even fire ONE time than that. OMG. The even if you could for what pro? Long Shot is very situational and not feasible in all circumstances (many times it is just a waste of stamina and you are better off with simple Poison and auto attacks - excluding specs).

 

As noted, I am not disagreeing a DW rogue descimate enemies, and cleans house. I am merely disagreeing with the statement: "Archer Rogue cannot put up as much damage as DW Rogue. It isn't even close.". It is close -- even if a DW rogue goes ahead, it's close. It's not one-sided as some wants it to be. 

 

You disagree with it because you obviously don't know too much of what you are talking about and it shows.

[Anelyn77]

Regarding flask of lightning and your own dps - you can still switch to another character in your party for duration once you locked a target after you flasked, and have Sera x 2

 

But yes Assassination has more flashy stuff. 

[Matth85]

You disagree with it because you obviously don't know too much of what you are talking about and it shows.

 

Uncalled for, and unecessary. Also very, very, wrong.

Thanks, though. Hope you feel better about yourself.

 

As noted, I am stopping this.

 

Regarding flask of lightning and your own dps - you can still switch to another character in your party for duration once you locked a target after you flasked, and have Sera x 2

 

That's true. If you can be bothered to constantly switch out of your inquisitor, it becomes a dps increase!

[Adeph]

Having been inspired by this thread and bored of my mage I've started a dual wield Rogue on nightmare, is there a go to Assassin build for NM that some one could link me to or lay out in this thread? So far I've taken flank attack and it's upgrade but I'm not sure if I should get the aggro reduction talent next or make my way towards evade asap.

[Matth85]

My recommendations:

 

- Stealth

- Flank attack + upgrade.

- Twin fang

- Move down for Deathblow.

- Get upgrade for both Twin Fang and Deathblow

*Optional Get Posion + Looked like it hurt + Cheapshot in the poison tree. You can wait with the 2 passives, as they don't start to shine until you get some crit chance!

- Get threat reduction

- get Evade

 

Evade is nice, but you don't really need it before you start getting multiple Terror Demons at 8(or is it 12?). Deathblow hits like a truck and can knock down certain enemies that otherwise won't get knocked down (Maulers).

The threat reduction is also nice, but not really a priority. Stealth instantly removes your aggro, so that will suffice in the start.

 

If you feel you need evade as soon as possible, just get un-upgraded Deathblow (4 points in total) then move towards evade. Otherwise I would hold on until about level 8 or so with it.

[Zenthar Aseth]

IMO Evade is worth it because it's fun.

[Sevitan7]

Dragon age games were never difficult to begin with. If anything, I think they did a great job with High Dragons this time around!

Take DA:O for one. I soloed it as a DW Rogue, as a non-AW Mage and as a 2h Warrior. No problems at all. In DA:2 It was either no problems to solo, or otherwise faceroll, it. You just had to hump around a certain rocky boss for 140 minutes.

 

Yea, I mean the High Dragon fights are more fun for sure, but you can solo them easily enough in this game too. In Origins and 2 you at least had to work to break the system. Between some of the focus abilities, mark of death, dragon rage and crafting even average tier 3 armor making you near immortal you have to go out of your way not to break this game. I killed Hissing Wastes Dragon before it got up from its slumber, and I wasn't going out of my way to do so (but it was funny).

 

You really think this game is better balanced than the first two games? I took quite a bit of joy from the trying out different builds and approaches in the first two, in this one combat just feels like a chore with deeply flawed mechanics; making the entire experience very unsatisfying.

[Adeph]

My recommendations:

 

- Stealth

- Flank attack + upgrade.

- Twin fang

- Move down for Deathblow.

- Get upgrade for both Twin Fang and Deathblow

*Optional Get Posion + Looked like it hurt + Cheapshot in the poison tree. You can wait with the 2 passives, as they don't start to shine until you get some crit chance!

- Get threat reduction

- get Evade

 

Evade is nice, but you don't really need it before you start getting multiple Terror Demons at 8(or is it 12?). Deathblow hits like a truck and can knock down certain enemies that otherwise won't get knocked down (Maulers).

The threat reduction is also nice, but not really a priority. Stealth instantly removes your aggro, so that will suffice in the start.

 

If you feel you need evade as soon as possible, just get un-upgraded Deathblow (4 points in total) then move towards evade. Otherwise I would hold on until about level 8 or so with it.

Thank you, I'll see how it goes in regards to evade. The attributes thread, which is fantastic, states that dexterity is better than cunning but I'm guessing after a certain point you want to build +crit instead of +attack?

[Matth85]

You really think this game is better balanced than the first two games?

 

Well, partly. I believe the game itself is balanced better -- but there are some huge flaws. Both regarding skill synergy, focus and with crafting.

 

I found DA:O to be the easiest. Even solo Nightmare was easy. You had so many tools, and could build yourself to become a god among men.

DA:2 wasn't hard.. just annoying. Bosses had so much health it took ages to solo them.

DA:I struck a balance.. sort of. I feel DA:I is a hybrid game that doesn't quite work out too good. They need decide what kind of game DA is going to be: like DA:O, or DA:2. Not a mix, like DA:I. It's weird, and easily exploited. 

 

In a few games they might get it right?

 

Thank you, I'll see how it goes in regards to evade. The attributes thread, which is fantastic, states that dexterity is better than cunning but I'm guessing after a certain point you want to build +crit instead of +attack?

 

It depends on your build. As assassination you don't need that much crit, as you build on going in and out of stealth. At that point dexterity/crit damage becomes good. Attack% is overall a  very good stat to have, and you should try to get as much as you can.

At what point you should go for what I can't tell you for certain. I will let the theorycrafters answer that

[Khevar]

As noted, I am not disagreeing a DW rogue descimate enemies, and cleans house. I am merely disagreeing with the statement: "Archer Rogue cannot put up as much damage as DW Rogue. It isn't even close.". It is close -- even if a DW rogue goes ahead, it's close. It's not one-sided as some wants it to be. 

 

Okay, that's a fair statement.

 

The main thing that I had a problem with was your claim that you could "kill 2 archers and a mauler before I could even reach the first archer."  That was just some silly hyperbole on your part, right?

 

For what it's worth, I do think that rogue archers are fun.  But I've run into many fights with a large pack of mobs with archers and mages in the back.  I've cleared the weaks manually running my DW Inq, and I've cleared the weaks manually running Sera with a nice crafted T3 bow.  Sera is slower at it, even with the advantage of being able to stand still and turret.

 

Of course, this is purely anecdotal, so take it as you will.

[Matth85]

 

That was just some silly hyperbole on your part, right?

 

 

Slightly exaggerated on my part, yes I could take down 2 archers in a few seconds, but a mauler does take some workin' on to take down.

 

cleared the weaks manually running my DW Inq

 

That's the strength of a DW Rogue! You can take out priority targets very quickly. 

 

My point was merely that as an archer you do good damage, and you do it from afar. If it was a race between clearing packs, they would pretty much even out in the end. At best the DW rogue would be a bit ahead. But that's besides the point: I just wanted to beat on the point that DW rogue is a mile over archer. It just isn't. Not in this game at least.

[Piledriveher]

You can parry any melee attack that isn't a heavy 2h one. Invisible aafter every kill with assassin spec which is the only one for dw imo. If you die constantly you need to take a closer look at how the abilities function. This is my first dragon age game I'm doin night mare dw rogue and am lvl 9. Get skirmisher for invisible and ambush in subter. I also upgraded poison for 25 percent dmg and max out assassin spec. I die but overall I am having a blast an haven't found a spot I can't get past

[Sevitan7]

Well, partly. I believe the game itself is balanced better -- but there are some huge flaws. Both regarding skill synergy, focus and with crafting.

 

I found DA:O to be the easiest. Even solo Nightmare was easy. You had so many tools, and could build yourself to become a god among men.

DA:2 wasn't hard.. just annoying. Bosses had so much health it took ages to solo them.

DA:I struck a balance.. sort of. I feel DA:I is a hybrid game that doesn't quite work out too good. They need decide what kind of game DA is going to be: like DA:O, or DA:2. Not a mix, like DA:I. It's weird, and easily exploited. 

 

In a few games they might get it right?

 

That's fair enough, can't find a flaw with that reasoning.

 

I suppose I'm disappointed in the huge gear dependency and synergy balance that makes the game way too easy. I enjoy these sort of games mostly for the aspect of character building that progressively get stronger through mechanical choices within the system. And in this game you just craft the right gear and it almost doesn't matter what abilities you picked when leveling, but if you pick the right ones you'll slay dragons in seconds. It's one thing to restrict myself from using something like Mana Clash (which is a flaw annoying enough in itself), it's another when half of the abilities break the game.

 

So let's hope you are right and they get it right within the next decade!

[Matth85]

I think that is one of the flaw with this hybrid game. It isn't quite a RPG... It's like they tease us with the illusion that we can build our character.. but we can't. Since it's pseudo-RPG/Action genre. It's.. weird.. and not really working out. At all. Er...

 

Anyways. I wager I can get a good 200 hours in DA:I before i get bored. Not quite the 1k in skyrim (With 2k hours modding.. but who's countin?), but better than the 20 in DA:O and the 10 in DA:2!

[Magma_Axis]

I think that is one of the flaw with this hybrid game. It isn't quite a RPG... It's like they tease us with the illusion that we can build our character.. but we can't. Since it's pseudo-RPG/Action genre. It's.. weird.. and not really working out. At all. Er...

meplay

Anyways. I wager I can get a good 200 hours in DA:I before i get bored. Not quite the 1k in skyrim (With 2k hours modding.. but who's countin?), but better than the 20 in DA:O and the 10 in DA:2!

Nah, for most people it's work quite well. Only when you dissect the gameplay, that the flaws came through. And the one who does that is us, hardcore RPG fans

 

For many casual RPG player, it's good enough

 

And if you like to analyze combat, give DA2 a chance. That game have good combat mechanic ruined by idiotic encounter design

[SuicidalBaby]

Bump it down to hard. Nightmare mode demands you adapt to it. If micromanaging is too much then don't play it on Nightmare.

Nobody's forcing you.

I suggest picking up Tempest if you really want to play a melee rogue on Nightmare. Still has micromanagement but at least it's not as reactionary.

if you're micromanaging everything on Nightmare, you're doing it wrong.

[ent1]

Thank you, I'll see how it goes in regards to evade. The attributes thread, which is fantastic, states that dexterity is better than cunning but I'm guessing after a certain point you want to build +crit instead of +attack?

 

You automatically crit from stealth, stealth CD resets on kill, and if you go that route, you can automatically crit sleeping and panicked enemies. So you want critical damage, which you get from dexterity along with attack, not the crit you get from cunning.

[cyph]

Stealth is currently bugged and some times the enemies see through it and attack you. Also, spells or AOE attacks will hit through stealth and hurt you just the same. Evade makes you invincible (I think, never got hit) which makes it by far the best...IMHO.

Modifié par cyph, 05 décembre 2014 - 01:06 .

[Magma_Axis]

Stealth is currently bugged and some times the enemies see through it and attack you. Also, spells or AOE attacks will hit through stealth and hurt you just the same. Evade makes you invincible (I think, never got hit) which makes it by far the best...IMHO.

To be fair, stealth should not negate AOE attacks or AOE spells

[Tookah45]

I play NM like Cyph does.. I don't pause, can't stand the tac-cam..  I also live stream my play on youtube while I'm doing it.

 

The thing I have noticed about NM difficulty is that gear is way more important then "levels" and setting up your party with the right gear makes the game way easier..  granted there have been a few fights where I just got cheesed.. nothing like going into a rift with 3 "nightmares" who all decide to spam their AoE on you.. no amount of jumping out of the way works when they are chaining that ****....

 

But yeah, NM isn't as "hard" as its made out to be.

 

When fighting multiple terrors that try to cheese you like that you have to knock them out of their aoe together. Clump up, wait for them to port in, and then drop a fire mine. It will stagger them out of it and you can usually kill one and get some hurt on a second before they stand back up. You have to lock them down and cheese them right back or they ruin your day. 3 Terrors is probably the hardest rift combo I've seen. Except for possibly 2 Terrors and a Despair icebeaming you to death while you're slowed by the Terrors and can't do anything about it.

[cyph]

To be fair, stealth should not negate AOE attacks or AOE spells

 

This is precisely why evade is superior.

[Wolfen09]

i find for the two hand enemies on nightmare, its easier to just let your tank hit them and pop in for an attack then evade away, wait till they finish their combo then jump back in.  It sucks cause you cant stay there and just rip, but as long as you pick your moments in between attacks, its doable.  I find most of my dual rogues get picked off by two or more archers when i go after 1 of them while my tank distracts the melee enemies while my two ranged characters try to take down the other archers, but cant do it quickly enough.  Will say this, get some fade touched silverite and put it in the masterwork slot for your daggers and you gain +5 guard for every hit with each dagger, this makes it much better.  Though i do that with every character...

[Lucrece]

I've had no need for Evade on NM. The problem with DW rogue is a PC controls QoL issue. Nothing is wrong with the spec at all.

 

The damage I can dish out in well crafted gear pretty much comes close to doubling the damage of my two other mages combined. Mages of course have a metric ton of utility for the group and still decent damage so nothing's wrong with a DW rogue bringing raw damage. Especially if you have to work for it with positioning.

 

I was not impressed however with the bow. I tried it just for a change of pace, and the cooldowns on the skills are so horrendously long outside popping fire flask to spam long shot. And in those long cooldown times the bow easily has the crappiest autoattacks in the game. It's the lowest DPS weapon with just normal attacks, of course you can burst harder than a mage pairing long shot and aimed shot, but even a mage pulls ahead in long term DPS not to mention AoE and team utility.

 

Bow is for those who want to play safe and not deal with the punishment of melee, but if you're only going to be doing single target damage, go DW and be actually good at it. I'll admit bow is enjoyable when you don't have to put up with the bullshit of having your skills constantly screwed over by terrain/elevation, but whatever.

 

Also, don't spec into the knife throw skill. It's bad. Rogue is not an AoE class don't bother and reroll to warrior/mage if you want AoE.

 

Another advantage of being a rogue is you don't have to worry about carrying alternative staves of different elements when fighting dragons. Inventory management is enough of a pain as a rogue, I'm not going to complicate it as a mage.

 

It's a pity I'm not hearing good things about warriors, but I still plan to roll a Reaver or Templar in my next playthrough.

[ent1]

Nope. A lot of people have made it work great. Which is evidence that those who can't play it are doing it wrong. If it was terrible, a lot of people wouldn't be doing great with it -- it'd be impossible. 

 

Companions always follow you into battle? Huh? You know you can change who they follow/defend, right, and it's on "controlled character" only by default?

 

DW rogue is better and more fun than other classes I've tried.

 

Yes, companions always follow you into battle. What I mean by that is, your companions cluster around you as you move into battle. Tactics dictate what they attack, not how they move around the world.

 

And my point is not that DW rogue is not playable, but that it is decidedly more difficult, particularly in the early game, than playing ranged. That, to me, is poor design. Different setups should play differently, but one should not be significantly more difficult than others. I gritted my teeth through 12 levels as a melee rogue, then switched to archery and it was so, so much easier, with minimal if any loss of dps. Was I doing it wrong? Probably. But that doesn't explain how I was suddenly able to play an archer right. It may indeed be rewarding to get the melee rogue right, but the discrepancy can't be dismissed.