733 réponses à ce sujet

[Zenthar Aseth]

Yes, companions always follow you into battle. What I mean by that is, your companions cluster around you as you move into battle. Tactics dictate what they attack, not how they move around the world.

No, they don't.

[ent1]

Yes and no. 

On Sera, Flask of lightning is a dps increase, since her speed increase.

On you, however, no dps is gained. Think about it: Time slows down. You do the exact same dps as you did earlier. The only difference is that your team doesn't do anything, and the enemy doesn't do anything. In theory, then yes -- you do more dps. But in reality(as in you, playing), your dps does no increase.

 

Don't dismiss tempest though. If you want a changed playstyle, ala: not stealth-based, then tempest is very nice!

 

It's a DPS increase either way. Not in real time, but in game time. Let's say you are controlling Sera, and she gets 10 attacks in 5 seconds, while everyone else gets two attacks. If you are not controlling her, she gets those attacks much faster, but it's still a 5 to 1 increase in attack speed. The effectiveness is the same whether you are controlling her or not. The difference only matters if you have to kill things faster in real time, because you have to get to an appointment or something.

[ent1]

No, they don't.

Seriously, I've played over 150 hours of this game, and I've observed this probably thousands of times. You can't just say "no they don't".

[Zenthar Aseth]

Seriously, I've played over 150 hours of this game, and I've observed this probably thousands of times. You can't just say "no they don't".

They don't in my game. If you set their behaviors right, they don't cluster around you. Unless you mean prior to combat, which doesn't matter since you should be stealthing anyways, and then they stop following you.

[cyph]

 
And my point is not that DW rogue is not playable, but that it is decidedly more difficult, particularly in the early game, than playing ranged. That, to me, is poor design. Different setups should play differently, but one should not be significantly more difficult than others. I gritted my teeth through 12 levels as a melee rogue, then switched to archery and it was so, so much easier, with minimal if any loss of dps. Was I doing it wrong? Probably. But that doesn't explain how I was suddenly able to play an archer right. It may indeed be rewarding to get the melee rogue right, but the discrepancy can't be dismissed.

Archery is easier because you are far away from the enemy and you don't get hit. It's common sense. It's the same reason a SnS warrior is easier to play than a 2H warrior, but the 2H dish out much higher damage but is more fragile. Close combat with a squishy glass cannon is inherently harder. The two skill sets are different. It makes perfect sense why an archer build is far easier than a DW build. You trade safety for faster kills. Two daggers of 300+ dps vs 110 or so dps. Safety vs damage. And no, bow rogues cannot dish out the same damage, it's mathematically impossible. From dps to the ability to quickly detonate combos one after another, the DW reigns supreme.

The bottom line is everyone should play the way they want as long as it's fun. If DW is not fun, then don't use it. If nightmare is not fun, turn down the difficulty. Don't force yourself to play a certain build on a specific difficulty. Many who play nightmare play for the challenge, not for the bragging rights.

[Zenfluence]

I love fighting 2handed warrior types with DW Rogue; Double Fang--> "Ooo you wanna swing back? Eat Parry, Parry, Parry, Parry, tired now? Back stab, Fangs, Parry..."

But yeah honestly it's just not braindead easy and just makes more sense now, want to play a fast reflex character? Then BE fast/elusive, not ninja face tank. As said if Nightmare is too hard turn it down, doesn't really matter.

[lastpawn]

It's a DPS increase either way. Not in real time, but in game time. Let's say you are controlling Sera, and she gets 10 attacks in 5 seconds, while everyone else gets two attacks. If you are not controlling her, she gets those attacks much faster, but it's still a 5 to 1 increase in attack speed. The effectiveness is the same whether you are controlling her or not. The difference only matters if you have to kill things faster in real time, because you have to get to an appointment or something.

 

Still, in terms of real time it's actually takes longer to bring down enemies... because for the duration of the flask it's just one character doing damage. I actually don't upgrade the Lightning Flask for this reason, I like to get to my appointments on time ; )

[Eledran]

Since I unlocked specializations the game has become very easy for my melee rogue. I picked assassin in the end and she destroys pretty much anything that comes  her way. The only issue that remains is the one with massive cleaves from some mobs, they did go overboard with those.

 

But other than that, the game has actually become a little too easy, even on nightmare, imo.

 

Iron Bull with the reaver spec is the only one in my party who outdoes my rogue (but he has better gear too). Even that is relative though, as Mark of Death doubles his DPS together with that of the entire party.

[DrekorSilverfang]

Stealth is currently bugged and some times the enemies see through it and attack you. Also, spells or AOE attacks will hit through stealth and hurt you just the same. Evade makes you invincible (I think, never got hit) which makes it by far the best...IMHO.

Uh.. many mobs see through stealth that's not a bug. Stealth is also not invulnerability, it's mostly used to drop threat and proc passives like oh 50% armor pen?

[skokie29]

Honestly, if you played as an archer and a DW rogue, there is no argument here: The rogue owns. 

 

Archer is much more accessible. You stand afar, use special moves, hold R2 as you wait for cooldowns and repeat. If someone comes close, you do that cool move where you leap away from danger. 

 

With the rogue, I think the general consensus is that if you use him/her properly, and they are equipped well, there is no contest. They one/two shot strong enemies. 

 

At level 11, two daggers equipped doing 270 damage. I mean, that coupled with the high crit chance, dps and moves makes rogue a much more potent fighter. 

 

This isn't fanboyism. This is just what I took away after playing the two styles. 

[DrekorSilverfang]

Assassin:

Armor penetration - dps boost

Mark of death - probably the most OP non-focus ability in the game. The burst output is insane.

Crit on stealth and stealth reset after kill

 

Tempest:

Flask of fire - your only dps ability. You get 3-4 abilities off during it.

Flask of lightning - you do the same dps as before, but time slows down. Surivability boost, not dps boost, in the case you control the inquisitor.

Flask of frost - aurvivability.

 

Just going to throw this out there but you can easily get about 45% armor pen from gear with 50% from ambush you have 95% to ANY rogue, an extra 25% is pointless. Crit on stealth is also pretty pointless as sneak attack effectively doubles your crit which you can easily get to 50% to begin with so 100% crit chance. No need for stealth.

 

MoD is very strong but it is unbelievable overkill on anything that isn't a boss, and even then it's easy enough to just bring cole.

 

As for Fire, you can get off 5 abilities most of the time 5 twin fangs is 5000% weapon damage and remember that we have 100% crit and 95% armor pen? yea...

 

Lightning is a DPS boost, a HUGE boost to your auto attack DPS. Yes your damage per REAL WORLD second is the same but the damage per GAME WORLD second is what is important in a fight.

 

Frost is very nice for a melee rogue, 85% damage reduction for 8 seconds with T3 armor effectively makes you invulnerable.

[Selea]

Uncalled for, and unecessary. Also very, very, wrong.

Thanks, though. Hope you feel better about yourself.

 

It wasn't unnecessary. You said a lot of incorrect things (as when you talked about the attributes) and it's pretty obvious that you have not researched well on those topics. Attributes as flanking and attack are practically the most two important attributes to do burst damage at higher difficulties, tied with base damage of the weapon. All skills damage are based totally on those attributes and hence if you want to consider damage you have to take those in consideration elsewhere the conclusion you come up with will be totally faulted.

[Selea]

Will say this, get some fade touched silverite and put it in the masterwork slot for your daggers and you gain +5 guard for every hit with each dagger, this makes it much better.  

 

No. +guard works only as a whole (i.e. +guard on hit works for all the hits, it is not tied specifically to the item you put it in and in fact you can put it also on armor and it works in the same exact way). So if you put two same +guard values on both daggers you are just wasting a masterwork slot since same values DON'T stack (+5 and +5 is still +5, not +10). You are not wasting it, however, if you put +3 on one and +5 on the other. In this way you have +8 guard on hit since different values DO stack.

This, btw, is the same for all the other effects (inborn item effects, masterwork slots etc). If the value is the same then multiple values don't stack while if the values are different they do. An handy thing to keep in mind.

[Selea]

Uh.. many mobs see through stealth that's not a bug. Stealth is also not invulnerability, it's mostly used to drop threat and proc passives like oh 50% armor pen?

 

The bug is that if you are already in stealth the enemies that spawn after can see you as if you weren't in stealth at all (also if that type of enemy normally cannot). It has nothing to do with certain enemies being able to see through stealth (that's perfectly fine).

[Selea]

Crit on stealth is also pretty pointless as sneak attack effectively doubles your crit which you can easily get to 50% to begin with so 100% crit chance. No need for stealth.

 

It is not pointless at all because the items you use to increase crit chance you can instead use to get +crit dmg instead, doing a lot more damage (since +crit dmg works like +attack; when you have 100% crit dmg  - and you can easily have more - and you crit all the time from stealth that means having a permanent Mark of Death from your attacks on the enemy given the reset on stealth from every kill in the Assassin spec). Moreover, as I already said, Assassin is the spec that focus the most on dexterity and dexterity increases both attack and crit damage (both the most powerful damage attributes after +flanking if you always crit). Hence if you go the assassin route the best effects to put on items are surely +flanking and +crit dmg/+dexterity (+dex better if you have the possibility as it increases both attack and crit dmg at once: to note that dex gives a full point on crit dmg while cunning only half a point on crit chance).

Depending on the spec you choose you should consider which effects to use for best results. If you stack crit chance effects on an Assassin then you are wasting the spec, as you are wasting the Tempest spec if you stack crit dmg effects.

 

[Matth85]

You said a lot of incorrect things (as when you talked about the attributes) and it's pretty obvious that you have not researched well on those topics

 

Quote me where I have said incorrect things. But keep going, we love you for it.

 

All skills damage are based totally on those attributes and hence if you want to consider damage you have to take those in consideration elsewhere the conclusion you come up with will be totally faulted.

 

But the question was never what ability does more damage, or who can hit the harder! It was who did the highest dps. Even then I never disagreed the DW rogue did. You somehow neglect range, ease of targeting, up time and other factors. 

 

My whole quary with the stat part was not disagreeing with their weight. I have stated I know them -- it's the fact you seem to have an idea Archer and DW build differently. Both use attack%. The difference is a DW rogue might go for more flank%, but flank% is not better than attack. 

So what's you point? The only point I can get out of it, is that a rogue gets another weapon, thus more stats. Which is fine. But that's not what you are trying to cram up my back. 

 

So can you stop this crusade of yours? You are trying to hard, providing no fact and you seem to think you are correct without any testing or facts? I don't even think you know what the original question was.

 

So, no. I am not incorrect, I have not slacked on the research, but I am stopping this. If you really want to prove me wrong -- which I am happy to be, then go test it and prove it. Don't blur out lies and insult me! Please?

 

Geez, you are starting to get on my nerves. Here I am trying to be polite and all, but you keep cramming your finger up my ass. Why? Can we stop this now? If you really want to keep wasting both our time, get some facts. Don't just point at me for not bringing anything -- you don't either. And why does it even matter? What are we proving? I stand by that DW and Archers are not miles ahead in this game, although DW rogue goes ahead by a bit. If you can't agree to disagree, prove me wrong and stop acting up! Thanks.

 

@DrekorSilverFang

 

 

Just going to throw this out there but you can easily get about 45% armor pen from gear with 50% from ambush you have 95% to ANY rogue, an extra 25% is pointless. Crit on stealth is also pretty pointless as sneak attack effectively doubles your crit which you can easily get to 50% to begin with so 100% crit chance. No need for stealth.

 

MoD is very strong but it is unbelievable overkill on anything that isn't a boss, and even then it's easy enough to just bring cole.

 

As for Fire, you can get off 5 abilities most of the time 5 twin fangs is 5000% weapon damage and remember that we have 100% crit and 95% armor pen? yea...

 

Lightning is a DPS boost, a HUGE boost to your auto attack DPS. Yes your damage per REAL WORLD second is the same but the damage per GAME WORLD second is what is important in a fight.

 

Frost is very nice for a melee rogue, 85% damage reduction for 8 seconds with T3 armor effectively makes you invulnerable.

 

That's true. The Armor pen and crit isn't Assassinations biggest selling point, as both get neglected mid/late-game. But Mark of Death is huge! It doubles the damage done, which got synergy with the burst of Assassination!

 

Flask of Fire is nice, I give it that. But that's about it. It's also problematic if, say, a high dragon jumps away. Suddenly you lose the whole duration!

 

Flask of Lightning is weird. Yes it is a dps increase for the game -- but that's not important for you. You sit behind the screen. Time slows down. You do the exact same dps as before, your team does less and the enemy does less. It's a survivability increase, not a dps increase. The fact your team is slowed down means you do less dps in fact.

 

I know! it's the biggest selling point of the tempest. But you got to remember one thing: You are not in Thedas. You are in your chair/Sofa. If time slows down for anybody but you, you do less dps, even though the big boss will see it as a huge burst of damage. The only way to turn this to pure dps is by not playing the inquisitor when you pop the flask!

 

Flask of frost is nice -- but the problem occurs: You are a Rogue. Not a single situation in this game requires you to take damage. Of course, if you want to play a pseudo-warrior, or solo, it's nice! It's certainly the specialization I would opt to go for if I wanted to solo Nightmare DW rogue(Which I do plan to...).

This is also a problem with Flask of Lightning - you don't need survivability. At that point the only thing Tempest gives is Flask of Fire, in terms of dps. Mark of Death > Flask of Fire in terms of damage. With some crit + stamina on crit, you can do a combo of Mark of death - stealth - Twin Fangs - Hidden Blades - Flank Attack - Deathblow -- Detonate mark of death. That.. is a lot of damage every 30(or so) seconds. I am not going to say whether an Artificer crit DW rogue would be better than flask of Fire, since I have yet to really try it. Though I see the possibility of it being very good. 

 

As I have said earlier, this is how I see it:

 

Assassination - enforces the dw stealth playstyle.

Tempest - Changes playstyle to non-stealth-pseudo-warrior-"Control the battlefield"

Artificer - Doesn't change or enforce anything.

 

Note, however, that I am not saying they are miles ahead of each other! I think the specializations are very well balanced! The killing speed of each are very closely matched. It's just about your playstyle, really. You need to build on your own strength and weakness.

[Althaz]

Two daggers of 300+ dps vs 110 or so dps. Safety vs damage.

 

By the time you get daggers doing 300+ dps, you'll have bows doing at least 200. My bow is at 245 dps (which is probably about as high as they go). That DPS is calculated as constant DPS whilst attacking. My archer will never stop shooting longer than it takes to use evade (which does 300% weapon damage) or Leaping Shot (800% weapon damage) or Full Draw (up to 1600% weapon damage + 20s sleep).

 

I started out as a dual-wielding rogue, but it's crap compared to an archer, IMO. The theoretical DPS is definitely higher for a melee dual-wielder, but the dual-wield rogue can't take any aggro and has to constantly disengage. An archer also switches targets instantly, they are at 100% efficiency from the beginning of the battle until the final enemy is skewered. My normal party is my archer, Sera (Mark of Death + 1000 cuts = lol), Cass and Viv. Sometimes I take a mage or warrior instead of Sera, but I basically never take Cole and I have zero regrets from respeccing from dw => archer. As soon as I did it, my party got stronger. Dragons and other bosses in particular. Being able to one-shot basically any non-boss is also very handy.

[Typhar]

Lightning is a DPS boost, a HUGE boost to your auto attack DPS. Yes your damage per REAL WORLD second is the same but the damage per GAME WORLD second is what is important in a fight.

 

Thank you. I don't understand why people aren't getting this. It's the same result as if you pressed a button for instant mega-damage.

 

Tempest can abuse +damage tonics, on-hit ability procs from gear, and passive boosts like flanking damage better than any other class or specialization because of lightning flask. I had plenty of fights in my hard-mode run where I killed every enemy before my team could even move. That's the equivalent of a DPS increase in my book.

 

The only issue I have with it is that party buffs/debuffs run out as if it were real time, doing things like removing your team's barriers >_<.

[Zenthar Aseth]

Comparing the first pages and last pages of this thread is hilarious, especially when posters on the first pages spoke with such conviction.

[Matth85]

Thank you. I don't understand why people aren't getting this. It's the same result as if you pressed a button for instant mega-damage.

 

 

No, no it isn't. The damage in the game world is irrelevant for you. The dps for you, is relevant for you. Things don't die faster when you use flask of lightning -- for you. They die faster for the game, sure, but why is that important? 

 

 

That's the equivalent of a DPS increase in my book.

 

 

I think you misunderstand the term "DPS". The "S", in "DPS", stands for seconds. Your seconds. So if you put a stopwatch on and time it, your dps doesn't increase. There are 2 ways Flask of Light can increase your dps:

1) you don't play the inquisitor when the flask is used.

2) You take into account that enemies don't move, so flanking is easier. 

 

This is not an opinion, it's a fact. Time slows down = no dps increase. Time goes faster = dps increase. If you want to roleplay a ninja, then sure -- in the game world you do more dps, but that's irrelevant to you as a player. Things would die equally fast if you didn't use it. 

 

The only real dps increase is Flask of Fire. The other 2 are more for survivability and/or fun factor. Slowing down time gives no bonus to damage, attack speed, crit chance, or any other modifiers. You hit as hard as you did earlier, as fast as you did with as much stamina as you did. Whether the enemy moves or not is quite irrelevant(Well, sort of irrelevant. It can be seen as a small dps increase over long-term, as you don't need to chase enemies!) 

[Selea]

Quote me where I have said incorrect things. But keep going, we love you for it.

We? Are you here using plurale maiestatis or are you pretending to speak for others in this thread? Both are quite presumptuous on your part and you even had the pretense to tell me I am such before. Oh well...
 

But the question was never what ability does more damage, or who can hit the harder! It was who did the highest dps. Even then I never disagreed the DW rogue did. You somehow neglect range, ease of targeting, up time and other factors. 

Ability and weapon damage IS a factor for DPS, and much probably the PRIMARY factor. Range is a negligible factor when you have skills that allows you to easily reach your targets and when the powerful damage skills require as much time to fire as to close enemies (even without the aforementioned skills to close), and ease of targeting can never fill the gap in missing base damage.
 

My whole quary with the stat part was not disagreeing with their weight. I have stated I know them -- it's the fact you seem to have an idea Archer and DW build differently. Both use attack%. The difference is a DW rogue might go for more flank%, but flank% is not better than attack. 

 

 

Again: or you don't know how to read or I cannot make you understand this simple point: on parity of specs and equipment DW rogue has MORE %attack than an Archer (given the amount of dex in the trees and the starting amount) and, most importantly, %flank IS better (much actually) than %attack (ffs, read that damn theorycraft thread, seriously: %flank is almost double as powerful than %attack, it is the MOST powerful stat since it is the only one that gets calculated BEFORE armor). Moreover, as I repeat, flanking is almost not an option for an archer while for DW is. Only the fact that %flank is the most powerful stat and only the DW rogue can use that stat efficiently already turns all this diatribe in just a mirage on your part.
 

 

So what's you point? The only point I can get out of it, is that a rogue gets another weapon, thus more stats. Which is fine. But that's not what you are trying to cram up my back. 

 

What's so difficult to understand on the fact that x2 is better than x1 since you have two weapons (with MORE dps than a bow on even only one; so in total more than x2, actually about x2.5) that hit at once? I don't think it does take a genius to understand, isn't it? And if you cannot understand that x2 is better than x1 for what it concerns total dps well...

 

So can you stop this crusade of yours? You are trying to hard, providing no fact and you seem to think you are correct without any testing or facts? I don't even think you know what the original question was.

It's not a crusade. I'm just trying to make you notice that all you say is based on incorrect data as I've proven to you time and time again, even if it seems you really cannot notice it.
 

So, no. I am not incorrect, I have not slacked on the research, but I am stopping this. If you really want to prove me wrong -- which I am happy to be, then go test it and prove it. Don't blur out lies and insult me! Please?

Yes, you are, and yes you didn't do the proper research and it shows (just from the fact that you insist that %flank is not more powerful than %attack when it's PROVEN that it is almost as double as powerful since it is calculated BEFORE armor, differently from %attack - that, btw, is already very powerful but %flank is almost absurd). As for testing I already did it (when you will be able to do 90k total damage in 8 seconds on a target with an archer without using a focus ability come to tell me) and you obviously didn't, elsewhere we would not be here talking of an obvious thing.

And please stop with the victim card. Nobody is insulting you, I am just pointing out fallacies in your arguments, not on yourself.

[Matth85]

Edit: You know what. Forget it. 

[Zenfluence]

No, no it isn't. The damage in the game world is irrelevant for you. The dps for you, is relevant for you. Things don't die faster when you use flask of lightning -- for you. They die faster for the game, sure, but why is that important?




I think you misunderstand the term "DPS". The "S", in "DPS", stands for seconds. Your seconds. So if you put a stopwatch on and time it, your dps doesn't increase. There are 2 ways Flask of Light can increase your dps:
1) you don't play the inquisitor when the flask is used.
2) You take into account that enemies don't move, so flanking is easier.

This is not an opinion, it's a fact. Time slows down = no dps increase. Time goes faster = dps increase. If you want to roleplay a ninja, then sure -- in the game world you do more dps, but that's irrelevant to you as a player. Things would die equally fast if you didn't use it.

The only real dps increase is Flask of Fire. The other 2 are more for survivability and/or fun factor. Slowing down time gives no bonus to damage, attack speed, crit chance, or any other modifiers. You hit as hard as you did earlier, as fast as you did with as much stamina as you did. Whether the enemy moves or not is quite irrelevant(Well, sort of irrelevant. It can be seen as a small dps increase over long-term, as you don't need to chase enemies!)

Lightning Flask actually becomes a DPS increase when combined with Mercy Killing...the amount of crit strikes you can get in that window is crazy. So it's actually Survivability/utility (revives) and situational DPS buff.

[brazen_nl]

The only issue I have with it is that party buffs/debuffs run out as if it were real time, doing things like removing your team's barriers >_<.

 

If we're talking auto attack, can't you circumvent this by playing from the tactical view, having another character selected? This way, the buffs use your real time, but the Lightning Flask char is on fast time.

[ent1]

 

 

No, no it isn't. The damage in the game world is irrelevant for you. The dps for you, is relevant for you. Things don't die faster when you use flask of lightning -- for you. They die faster for the game, sure, but why is that important? 

 

 

Because you are playing the game? If you can kill an enemy before it takes a swing, it doesn't matter if the swing takes one second or one hour in real time.

 

Again, the real time DPS only matters if you have somewhere to be in real life and need the fights to go faster. For the purposes of killing enemies efficiently within the game, what matters is your damage rate vs enemy damage rate.