733 réponses à ce sujet

[cyph]

By the time you get daggers doing 300+ dps, you'll have bows doing at least 200. My bow is at 245 dps (which is probably about as high as they go). That DPS is calculated as constant DPS whilst attacking. My archer will never stop shooting longer than it takes to use evade (which does 300% weapon damage) or Leaping Shot (800% weapon damage) or Full Draw (up to 1600% weapon damage + 20s sleep).

I started out as a dual-wielding rogue, but it's crap compared to an archer, IMO. The theoretical DPS is definitely higher for a melee dual-wielder, but the dual-wield rogue can't take any aggro and has to constantly disengage. An archer also switches targets instantly, they are at 100% efficiency from the beginning of the battle until the final enemy is skewered. My normal party is my archer, Sera (Mark of Death + 1000 cuts = lol), Cass and Viv. Sometimes I take a mage or warrior instead of Sera, but I basically never take Cole and I have zero regrets from respeccing from dw => archer. As soon as I did it, my party got stronger. Dragons and other bosses in particular. Being able to one-shot basically any non-boss is also very handy.

In my game, the dagger has always been at 3x the bow in dps. So if you are finding 200+ bows then daggers should be hitting 400+ at least. Not only that, but daggers proc crit 3x per sec among other abilities, versus once for bow. Why are we even still arguing that bow is better in damage? If that's the case, why would anyone use a DW? Please post a video of you one-shooting non-bosses on nightmare that's at the same level as you. I'd like to see it because I'm not seeing it in my gameplay. Even my best combos along with MoD can't one shot enemies.

For example, at level 16 enemies have 8k hp and elites have 16-20k. Other than focus abilities, only extremely lucky combos have one shotted an enemy that's not a wisp. I'd love to know how you're doing it.

Modifié par cyph, 05 décembre 2014 - 05:41 .

[Selea]

Why are we even still arguing that bow is better in damage? If that's the case, why would anyone use a DW? 

 

In fact. Moreover if Archer Rogue would be even on par on damage with DW it would be a completely crap system since roles would be completely screwed up. It is obvious that firing from range and switching targets at leisure is a great advantage the archer has from the point of view of survivability and sustained damage, so if the class also had the same burst DPS of a DW these last would have no role at all in the game.

Now, you can say everything about Bioware, but one thing is sure: they are good at making combat mechanics that give a role to every class and they are very good at making stories and world environments.

[Althaz]

In my game, the dagger has always been at 3x the bow in dps. So if you are finding 200+ bows then daggers should be hitting 400+ at least. Not only that, but daggers proc crit 3x per sec among other abilities, versus once for bow. Why are we even still arguing that bow is better in damage? If that's the case, why would anyone use a DW? Please post a video of you one-shooting non-bosses on nightmare that's at the same level as you. I'd like to see it because I'm not seeing it in my gameplay. Even my best combos along with MoD can't one shot enemies.

For example, at level 16 enemies have 8k hp and elites have 16-20k. Other than focus abilities, only extremely lucky combos have one shotted an enemy that's not a wisp. I'd love to know how you're doing it.

I call bullshit on bows vs daggers. There aren't any daggers that do 3x bow damage at the same level. You hit triple figures at level 8 with bows, at which time you'll be at ~200 with daggers. That's the biggest gap you ever get, after that bows get to 200 pretty quickly and daggers get to 300 pretty quickly. past that there's not huge increases for either weapon type, from what I've seen. The best bows are ~250 dps, whilst the best daggers are ~390. That's 50% more dps, not 3x.

 

Full-draw can do over 8k damage all by itself at level ~16-18ish (from memory, definitely doing more than that at level 23).

 

Also, focus abilities are crazy op regardless of class. Mark of Death + Fade Rift + Thousand Cuts = dead anything (this combo makes dragons seem weak). If you build focus and guard before boss battles, you get pretty damn powerful.

 

DW rogues are weak in this game and need a buff. Without their evasive abilities ala DA:O (where dw rogue was by miles my favourite character to play because they were f***ing amazing), they suck. They deal 50% more dps than an archer in raw terms, but spend only half the time actually attacking. 150% * 50% = 75%. So DW rogues use up all your potions and have less actual dps in a battle than an archer. They are crap and the combat mechanics make them fiddly to control. Hopefully they get some survivability buffs or burst damage buffs (more passive evade skills plus make Deathblow more like full-draw: ****-ton of one-time damage, perhaps from stealth only and needs to flank to do full damage?) so that they become viable. Getting rid of 360 degree attacks from every second enemy would be good to.

[Matth85]

DW rogues are weak in this game and need a buff.

 

 

Are we playing the same game? DW rogue is the class with highest burst, highest damage and probably the best class if played right. It requires you to know your enemy, and know your tactics -- but that's what a rogue is. 

 

I am an advocate that Archer is just behind DW rogue in terms of dps over the long span. I won't argue that point, but my own testing tells me that. That said, a DW rogue does beat the archer by a little. 

 

I love how DW rogues are this time around. you can't actually tank stuff, and you got to actually play like a rogue. It's awesome! (excluding if you go tempest... then you can tank stuff)

[Tensai]

I made Sera a double dagger rogue and i have a lot of fun to play as her.

[Selea]

The best bows are ~250 dps, whilst the best daggers are ~390. 

 

No. The very best daggers are at about 450-500 dps and you have 2.

 

Full-draw can do over 8k damage all by itself at level ~16-18ish (from memory, definitely doing more than that at level 23).

 

 

Full draw can do that damage only as an opener and it is a 24 sec cooldown skill. Meanwhile something like Twin Fangs can do the same damage every 8 seconds, and Deathblow can do much more than that damage and you can chain it (were you seriously complaining that Deathblow is not good? It is without a doubt the most damaging skill of the basic trees on lower than 50% HP enemies, ffs).

Then you have something like Hidden Blades that with daggers do almost triple damage.

 

They deal 50% more dps than an archer in raw terms

No, easily 100%-150% more if specced correctly, given the flanking bonuses.
 

DW rogues are weak in this game and need a buff.

 

 

No, they aren't. They are insanely powerful (they are by far the most powerful class if specced correctly). Simply learn to play them. If you want to insist on playing them as a secondary warrior simply equip two +guard masterwork on the daggers, one +3 and the other +5. In that way you can stand in melee even against maulers without problems. However a rogue should not be played like that.

Are archers easier to play than DW? Surely. Are archers very powerful? Surely. Are archers more powerful than DW in damage terms? No. Are DW rogues "weak"? Absolutely not, all the contrary in fact. They can seem so if you play them incorrectly, or maybe in the beginning of the game on higher difficulties, but once you learn to play them as they should be played and you reach the spec and craft some good weapons and armors they become the most damaging class in the game.

[Magma_Axis]

After reading this topic, the title should be changed to "Melee Rogue is Overpowered, even on Nightmare"

[Matth85]

After reading this topic, the title should be changed to "Melee Rogue is Overpowered, even on Nightmare"

Indeed!

[Novadove]

my belief is ignoring pretext and context, placing a DW rogue directly behind a mob, press all the skill buttons, then yes, a rogue has the highest output per moment.

 

but bring in all factoring context, archer's overall dps performance is higher than DW rogue

 

unless someone came out with the exact calculation, my belief still stands: your daggers walk. my arrows fly. By the time your dagger found its mark, i would've obliterate the entire battle field.

 

how about let's hold a competition on who kill the most ram within a given time.

 

edit: by the way, people have 1 shot mobs doing 10k damage.

[Selea]

unless someone came out with the exact calculation, my belief still stands: your daggers walk. my arrows fly. By the time your dagger found its mark, i would've obliterate the entire battle field.

 

If you have knowledge of some secret skills in the Archery tree that can provide burst damage with little cooldown that anybody else has seen then you would have a point, but sadly there's only Long Shot and only 1 skill every 8 seconds it is too low to compensate. Normal attacks don't "obliterate the entire battlefield", neither remotely.

Ease of targeting cannot fill the gap in the lack of burst damage potential the archer has in comparison to the DW rogue (this latter can simply chain a burst skill after another and the only thing that can stop you from doing this is lack of stamina, elsewhere you have always a new burst skill at disposal after the previous one; archers don't have this luxury).

Archer rogue is still the second most damaging class in the game, but it doesn't come close to the DW rogue just because of this (along the lack of reliable flanking capability).

[Novadove]

well, one rogue vs one rogue, DW tempest rogue vs archer tempest rogue, same speed, archer's arrow still lands faster than DW rogue running to its target. 

 

assuming both can spam skill, lightning flask for DW and lightning flask for archer, DW spam few skills for 1 mob, mob dies, "walks" to next target.

 

flask archer simply press next skill button with instant cycle to next target.

 

edit: chasing ram?

 

edit2: double full draw consider secret knowledge? i can perform 4 full draw one after another without cool down. it's possible.

[Selea]

well, one rogue vs one rogue, DW tempest rogue vs archer tempest rogue, same speed, archer's arrow still lands faster than DW rogue running to its target. 

 

assuming both can spam skill, lightning flask for DW and lightning flask for archer, DW spam few skills for 1 mob, mob dies, "walks" to next target.

 

flask archer simply press next skill button with instant cycle to next target.

 

edit: chasing ram?

Flask of Fire has a cooldown of 32 seconds and lasts 5 (Flask of Lighting doesn't allow you to spam skills, it slows time). You can "spam" only 2 Long Shots or 1 Full Draw + 1 Long Shot (if you are lucky) in that timeframe; hardly a "spam" (you can have Flask of Fire last more but then you have to use another elixir first so wasting the "opening").

And in nightmare even a 15 meters Long Shot doesn't immediately kill a normal mob of same level (you need to attack from a flank to do so and it's not so easy with an archer).

It seems to me you are talking about theory because if you did the thing in practice you would know it doesn't work that way.

[Novadove]

i will not argue that instant burst, dw rogue gives more damage than archer.

 

but assuming your dw rogue need to chase a mob, do you still say the same that dw rogue's damage output still higher than an archer?

 

as long as a dw rogue "starts" to chase it's target, archer will catch up and even outperform dw rogue.

 

there's almost never a case whereby all mobs surround a DW rogue for weapon skill spam convienience.

 

even a dragon jumps about.

[Novadove]

oh, i have use DW rogue on cory. chasing all the way at 4 corners as he teleports.

oh i have DW on dragon, waiting like an idiot hoping to land while my son grows impatient and ask me to use a bow.

oh i have DW on rift demons, following behind them hoping they would stay put for me to stab them

did i even mention trying to farm rams and they just keep jumping and jumping?

 

yes, after 10 second of chasing 1 ram across 1/4 of a map, i finally got it with mark of death and tired fingers.

collect 10 ram meat? sure no problem, keep chasing ram.

 

did i even mention many many times sera killed my damn target before i even position myself? i freaking hate her.

so i gimp myself and remove her from party so i can use a freeze/blizzard mage to aoe all my mobs for me to easily assassinate them.

 

~_~

[Arkahd]

oh, i have use DW rogue on cory. chasing all the way at 4 corners as he teleports.

oh i have DW on dragon, waiting like an idiot hoping to land while my son grows impatient and ask me to use a bow.

oh i have DW on rift demons, following behind them hoping they would stay put for me to stab them

did i even mention trying to farm rams and they just keep jumping and jumping?

 

yes, after 10 second of chasing 1 ram across 1/4 of a map, i finally got it with mark of death and tired fingers.

collect 10 ram meat? sure no problem, keep chasing ram.

 

did i even mention many many times sera killed my damn target before i even position myself? i freaking hate her.

so i gimp myself and remove her from party so i can use a freeze/blizzard mage to aoe all my mobs for me to easily assassinate them.

 

~_~

 

http://dragonage3.wi...Hook and Tackle

 

and

 

http://dragonage3.wi...t Beats Walking

 

you were saying?

[Novadove]

hook and tackle cory?

hook and tackle dragon in the sky?

 

perhaps hook and tackle rams and red Templars.

 

perhaps expansion will have a better and longer hook so i don't have to move around and hook everything to me for easy backstab =)

 

edit: maybe we play a different DAI. your hook and tackle is longer than mine whereby it's as far as an arrow will go.

[Arkahd]

hook and tackle cory?

hook and tackle dragon in the sky?

 

perhaps hook and tackle rams and red Templars.

 

perhaps expansion will have a better and longer hook so i don't have to move around and hook everything to me for easy backstab =)

 

edit: maybe we play a different DAI. your hook and tackle is longer than mine whereby it's as far as an arrow will go.

 

That wasn't a rebuttal to every single random thing you said. Just pointing out how much of an overstatement your last few posts have been. About the issues dw rogue faces compared to bow.

[Novadove]

i have only made a statement whereby archer may perhaps be on par or even out perform DW rogue.

i have never say archer rogue is the highest dps.

 

i only urge people to consider context if they even know what it means.

 

people keep thinking how much that number flash on the screen and cling on it so much that they ignore all other tiny details.

 

even if you try to squeeze out whatever statement i had in my opinion, it's that DW rogue, tho has high damage, is subjective on various circumstances

it is not simply a one-dimensional universal fact that as long as i do the most "screen flash number" means i am the highest dps.

 

if thing's so simple, i wouldn't play archer in the first place as contrary to my DAO DW rogue

[Novadove]

on a serious note, i will not argue any longer in this post as i feel it's kinda out of topic in terms of discussion.

 

it seems we are debating whether archer better or rogue better which isn't my intention tho it leads here indirectly.

 

generally, DW rogue is not awful in dmg output, just awful to use.

 

peace~

[lastpawn]

Archer vs DW argument is so academic it's not even funny. (And I am an academic!)

[knownastherat]

Possibly never ending. My uncapped level 30/30 Fighter/Thief would kill your Sorcerer and well any class ..  Not if I can cast Time Stop first! True Sight  and hmm just about anything so .. Imprisonment. Keep your stuff ktxbai.

[Downluck]

my dad makes more money than your dad

[mutantspicy]

Pointless to debate such things.  Both DW and Archers are valuable assets for completely different reasons.  Personally I prefer the Game play of DW, sure there's moments of running and dodging not attacking until you set up your next kill.  That's the joy of it.  With archer its find a spot and spam your attack button until long shot cools down.  I find the game play with archer, boring.  But that's just my opinion.  It seems archer is more consistent with the amount dmg it can produce, but with DW when you have lady luck on your side and you keep hitting crits, death is among us.

[Matth85]

Pointless to debate such things.  Both DW and Archers are valuable assets for completely different reasons.  Personally I prefer the Game play of DW, sure there's moments of running and dodging not attacking until you set up your next kill.  That's the joy of it.  With archer its find a spot and spam your attack button until long shot cools down.  I find the game play with archer, boring.  But that's just my opinion.  It seems archer is more consistent with the amount dmg it can produce, but with DW when you have lady luck on your side and you keep hitting crits, death is among us.

Regardless, we come to 1 final conclusion: Rogue = master race. 

[MooseheadMcMoose]

my belief is ignoring pretext and context, placing a DW rogue directly behind a mob, press all the skill buttons, then yes, a rogue has the highest output per moment.

 

but bring in all factoring context, archer's overall dps performance is higher than DW rogue

 

A few points regarding DW-rogue v archer DPS

 

1. Down/dead time is 0 DPS. DW rogue is far more likely to be nailed with AoE than archers. This needs to be factored into DPS calculations.

2. hook-and-tackle to move around isn't the same as archer retargeting. It takes stamina and time, which lowers DPS

3. micromanagement required to use DW rogue effectively far outweighs that of archer rogues.

 

If one ignores those 3 points - then yes, a DW rogue can be grand.