Point 1, absolutely. This is why melee do more damage than ranged in games.
Point 2, Hook and Tackle upgraded costs no Stamina. Although the stupid backflip animation cuts into my stabbing time.
Point 3, "micromanagement" is why I play the game. I'd hardly want a character that played itself.
Point 3, "micromanagement" is why I play the game. I'd hardly want a character that played itself.
That was why my first character was a dagger rogue. Then I realised that that meant it was difficult to focus on any of the companions. So I restarted as a tank that plays itslef, and during combat operate whatever companion whoes class and specialisation I want to experiment with.
I figured out how to make DW rogue work...you need the double bladed daggers...helps a lot, oddly enough.
I figured out how to make DW rogue work...you need the double bladed daggers...helps a lot, oddly enough.
DW never had a problem to work. They work beyond fine, regardless of a few annoyances here and there.
DW never had a problem to work. They work beyond fine, regardless of a few annoyances here and there.
On PC? Hmm...they work ok now...maybe because I have good ones...
A question is poisoned weapons skill worth it for dual dagger setup? so far its damage seems lackluster and since i have limited slots i am thinking i would like hook and tackle.
It gives you 25% additional damage and sundered armor lasts longer with its passive. That's why you use it.
DW rogue: AOE dagger. Flanking bonus, crit bonus, poison bonus, proc hidden blade, proc chain lightning x 3 per sec. Behind 3 enemies, hits all 3 x 3 = 9 possible hits, 9 possible crit chance, 9 possible hidden blade, 9 possible chain lightning, 9 possible + guard per hit... 900% weapon damage per second. Chain Lighting --> Combo AOE damage, 1000% x 3 damage x automatic crit x 50% flanking x 50% poison... against all enemies within AoE range.
Dragon Age is all about how much burst damage and how many enemies you eliminate at once. Burst damage is in orders of magnitudes far and away higher than sustained damage of 100% damage per second per single enemy. However, in the end game, DW rogues have better burst and sustained damage. The occasional dodge doesn't diminish that... In the late game, dodging is optional. DW rogues does up to 9x more damage per second sustained (not including poison, flank, and crits) against groups of enemies as an archer... I don't know how you go around that math.
Plus, bow is plain boring. Very pretty animations, but what fun is there in spamming autoattack while waiting for very long cooldown abilities.
Archer rogue just seems to me like a crappy mage imo. You don't do that much more damage than a mage with a bow, and your aoe sucks compared to them. DW rogue definitely has the biggest returns, especially with gear -- while a rogue may start off wimpy at the beginning of the game without gear, by tier 3 masterwork the damage difference is immense.
Loved that guy the previous page who came in, made some extremely weak arguments, got fed up, then left. I enjoyed reading this thread, and now I'm happy to be reassured that DW rogue will be a good choice for my next playthrough, albeit challenging!
It gives you 25% additional damage and sundered armor lasts longer with its passive. That's why you use it.
25% only to auto attacks NOT abilities and only against stuff on which poison works. so worthless to me. IF you want sundering go down the right side of the tree which has your crits sunder.
25% only to auto attacks NOT abilities and only against stuff on which poison works. so worthless to me. IF you want sundering go down the right side of the tree which has your crits sunder.
Taking PW is good stuff for Tempests. ITs plain +25 of your FoL outcome + DOT damage. Esp. if you use AOE daggers. PW DOT damage is great actually. You can spread it hitting several targets with Fire Flask spammed ability (Shadow Strike) or during Frost Flask (on multiple targets, one auto-attack with aoe daggers), and each hit is aqround 250% WD to each target if you hit once.
I usually have 100% PW time on my tempest, Knock down each target if there no hight priority (like Despair) with spammed SS, and auto-attack ALOT During FoL phase.
This means During one sequence if there 4 targets, PW deals :
250% WD damage to each as DOT (means total 1000% damage)
+25% auto-attack damage bonus for my Lightning Flask hits which are 100% crits (if target is not immune to sleep>nightmare or affected by Bees (bosses)). This means its not only +25 damage to powerfull skill, but also skill which is timed with other skill to get massive effect of auto-crit ability using Mercy Killing.
PRoblem i have is i have only one skill slot left, poisoned weapons, hook or assassin knockout powder.
Depends on party comp. I say KP because, oh well, Mercy Killing. Failing that , Hook. Assasin is clas which rely on hard hit abilities. I say KP/MK = autocrit, so it is only choice !
My personal oppinion - screw any DW build which does not have Mercy Killing.
The central problem with a melee rogue is the lack of armor.
Archers can leep away. Tanks are heavy coated. Mages keep their distance.
A melee rogue has to lean on tactics. It's the most challenging class.
My personal oppinion - screw any DW build which does not have Mercy Killing.
Depends on build. On an Assassin spec you need to waste points on redundant skills (since both KP and KB do exactly the same thing) and critical hits are not a problem with stealth.
IMO points are better spent elsewhere in that case. For example a skill highly underappreciated is Spinning Blades that used while in stealth (from behind) is very powerful (much more powerful than for example Shadow Strike; to notice that SB knockouts the enemy as SS) and with Looked Like it Hurt also a good way to recover stamina while doing damage (as Hidden Blades used in the same way).
Depends on build. On an Assassin spec you need to waste points on redundant skills (since both KP and KB do exactly the same thing) and critical hits are not a problem with stealth.
IMO points are better spent elsewhere in that case. For example a skill highly underappreciated is Spinning Blades that used while in stealth (from behind) is very powerful (much more powerful than for example Shadow Strike; to notice that SB knockouts the enemy as SS) and with Looked Like it Hurt also a good way to recover stamina while doing damage (as Hidden Blades used in the same way).
You must have Mercy Killing. And early - it gives huge benefits. You, basicly , can choose when to auto-crit at will and will auto-crit bosses affected by Jar of Bees.
This means you pick KP.
You swap KP and change build once Assasin is unlocked, but optimal start is skilling actually that part of Subtrefuge tree, before you get nice Assasin perks and abilities. After that you can remove KP from your bar, once you have enough stuff to fill it, but Mercy Killing is must, and KP is another disable whoch could generate you free crits same way stealth does if you have assasin perks.
Stealth have CD, and not every mob dies from single combo in Nightmare. Acquiring "Panicked" is much easier task, and it provides same benefits you have once when you exit the stealth.
Even if you performed combo and target is not dead - you could just continue critting it if its not immune to panic/sleep. Some bosses not immune to panic, so that works nicely with them too. And Most mini-bosses Elites too, are not immune to panic.
You must have Mercy Killing. And early - it gives huge benefits. You, basicly , can choose when to auto-crit at will and will auto-crit bosses affected by Jar of Bees.
This means you pick KP.
You swap KP and change build once Assasin is unlocked, but optimal start is skilling actually that part of Subtrefuge tree, before you get nice Assasin perks and abilities. After that you can remove KP from your bar, once you have enough stuff to fill it, but Mercy Killing is must, and KP is another disable whoch could generate you free crits same way stealth does if you have assasin perks.
Stealth have CD, and not every mob dies from single combo in Nightmare. Acquiring "Panicked" is much easier task, and it provides same benefits you have once when you exit the stealth.
Even if you performed combo and target is not dead - you could just continue critting it if its not immune to panic/sleep. Some bosses not immune to panic, so that works nicely with them too. And Most mini-bosses Elites too, are not immune to panic.
I still prefer Spinning Blades; especially with a dual bladed dagger the damage you can do in stealth with it to a group of clustered enemies is very good.
As for stealth and crit: if you play well you will always continuously go in stealth and auto crit with an Assassin (you don't need to kill at once normal enemies and actually doing so breaks the flow; you need Deathblow in between to restore Twin Fangs CD). The only instance you cannot do this is against single very powerful enemies, but in that case sleep will not help that much either (it is much better a MoD + Hidden Blades + Twin Fangs + remove MoD in that case).
A crit outside of an ability is not that much powerful, either in the DW case. Actually it is a waste to do criticals on normal attacks. KB and mercy killing are a good combo, sure, but with an Assassin spec there are better alternatives imo. I usually never either take KP in the Assassin tree because I never use it.
Again, seems you didnt understood my point.
Not taking Mercy Killing on Assasin is still waste. Because you can not Stealth on will (example - you fighting Pride Elite Demon and 2 Greater Terrors on Nightmare ). This means after single crit your auto-crit will expire, unless you have MErcy killing and target is sleeping or panicked. Terrors are hard targets to attack, even from stealth, since they move and CC alot. But if you make them sleep and then crit - stunlock them with SB which does crit damage + following SS which knocks and does also crit damage - this is much better then just one crit ability. It is also works much better as stunlock vs very dangrous and hard to catch monster.
KP is just on the way, and you swap it once you have replacement, but its still good mini-aor spell to make nightmare combo. I telling you from practice - its amazing early on to run with KP, prior you get full Assasin combo, and more, You still will have KB which is also great to make use of it.
As about of bosses - i've stated that almost all Elites and some Bosses are vulnerable to panic. This means they are vilnerable to Mercy Killing and are subject to autocrit once affected by Jar of Bees.
The central problem with a melee rogue is the lack of armor.
Archers can leep away. Tanks are heavy coated. Mages keep their distance.
A melee rogue has to lean on tactics. It's the most challenging class.
You have on demand stealth via improved flank attack or stealth, and on top of that 50% threat reduction or greater while flanking.
As a rogue you have the best threat dumps of any class. Not to mention that stealth allows you to send your party attacking to draw attention while you sneak to the archers and take them out immediately.
You have on demand stealth via improved flank attack or stealth, and on top of that 50% threat reduction or greater while flanking.
As a rogue you have the best threat dumps of any class. Not to mention that stealth allows you to send your party attacking to draw attention while you sneak to the archers and take them out immediately.
You also have most CC in the game, actually.
CC , detonators and burst damage combination - 3 in 1 skills, are what makes DW rogue lethal.
I must say afterfinishing with my reaver, i am really liking managing my dual dagger rogue, so many abilities, stealth, movement etc is fun.
If melee rogue is bad on nightmare, why is my NM rogue the easiest one so far to play NM mode with?
Currently 10/10 dragons dead and all zones cleared. My melee assassin rogue have had no problems at any part of the game including the early game.
Clearly a learn to play issue.
@ nic endo,
my argument is not weak. I just don't want to assume that enemies are always standing still out there for me to burst damage continuously.
majority of the comments here are talking about the skill itself on paper. when it comes to gameplay, it's still a chasing game.
I realized that the thread is about comparing figures but not actual game play and that's why I decided to say my peace.
the equation is to balance burst damage versus sustained dps. rogue graph fluctuates inconsistently while archer maintains a steady stream of dps to catch up DW's low ends. in the end, depending on situations, one will perform better than the other but it will never be a conclusive extreme.
moreover, party setup changes many things. you can press all the gazillion buffs just to find that the mob you want to stab has been killed by your team mates.
damage output = 0
no matter how much buff you calculated to add to 10000%, 0 damage = 0. reality become hypothesis. if it succeeds then the argument stands.
simple as that.
edit: it just means DW rogue doesn't fail but to say it outperforms archer by miles and leagues that's an assumption and assumption is not reality.
moreover, party setup changes many things. you can press all the gazillion buffs just to find that the mob you want to stab has been killed by your team mates.
damage output = 0
no matter how much buff you calculated to add to 10000%, 0 damage = 0. reality become hypothesis. if it succeeds then the argument stands.
simple as that.
That can happen also with an archer. Actually it is more probable that you can waste an ability on an archer if you enable it while one of your party members finish the target since the two main DPS skills (Full Draw and Long Shot) both have a lapse before firing the shot (Full Draw a great lapse). The DW rogue has no ability that requires a lapse. It is much more probable that the ability misses (sadly that happens but usually it is not wasted, you can reuse it) than the target being killed before you kill it (in Nightmare it is difficult for it to happen in any case; in Normal is very common instead).
edit: it just means DW rogue doesn't fail but to say it outperforms archer by miles and leagues that's an assumption and assumption is not reality.
It is a reality and all of those who have replied to you ARE playing a DW rogue so we speak from practice, not theory.
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