733 réponses à ce sujet

[Khevar]

the equation is to balance burst damage versus sustained dps. rogue graph fluctuates inconsistently while archer maintains a steady stream of dps to catch up DW's low ends. in the end, depending on situations, one will perform better than the other but it will never be a conclusive extreme.

 

Just as a comment on this.  My Inq main is a DW rogue.  My current go-to group for my NM run is Sera/Cass/Dorian.

 

I've tried to like Sera as an archer.  I've tried a few different specs.  I've let her run as AI, and I've taken control of her manually.

 

Then I respecced her to DW.

 

In my personal experience (which is purely anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt), things die MUCH more quickly with both of us as DW, rather than one DW and one archer. Easy groups, hard groups, rifts, keeps, dragons.

 

You keep saying that archers sustained dps balances out over time with dagger burst dps.  But I have a hard time seeing that, purely due to how much more quickly things die with my current setup.  I can only assume that either I'm bad at archers, or you're bad at DW.

 

Forgive my ego, but archer seems pretty easy-peasy, so ...

 

Edit: (Disclaimer: I micromanage my two DWs, which may make a difference.  Perhaps AI controlled archers are better over time than AI controlled DW. But two micro DW kills things faster than micro DW + micro Archer, for sure).

Modifié par Khevar, 08 décembre 2014 - 06:26 .

[Selea]

Btw, has someone per chance tried the masterwork: "enter stealth when not attacking during combat" (Golden Halla or Fade touched Halla Leather)?

If someone has tried it then how does it work in practice? I didn't get the chance to try it because in the quest I returned to golden halla and I didn't have a savegame that didn't require a lot of time to trace back.

If it is worth it, however, I will do it.

I am a little perplexed on the way it works however. For example after you attack do you automatically re-enter stealth immediately or there's a lapse? Does it works only in the beginning of a fight or it does always?

If someone has tried the masterwork please let me know. On paper it sounds too good to be true (if it really works as casting stealth immediately after an attack this masterwork is absurdly powerful on an Assassin build and it is either very easy to acquire) but we all know how tooltips can be misleading sometimes.

[brazen_nl]

Does anyone else see the hard to read reversed text or is it my browser acting up?

 

[Kage]

I am liking DW Rogue, I usually take Cole to control him directly.

It requires more care than just spamming everything with my firemage, but it has much more DPS.

 

The thing with DW rogue is that all is burst. If you find yourself AAing an enemy that has a lot of health, you are not thinking correctly and you are doomed for the next AoE.

I always play with him picking up all the squisshies, mages and archers. It is very rewarding when you can kill an enemy before it pops up their OP barrier.

 

Against heavy guarding OP bruiser melées, which do AoEs all the time, I am extra careful. I attack from distance, wait for guard to be down, and then CC and burst. I never ever AA a guard enemy that has guard up, since that means CC immunity and AoE attacks = dead Cole.

[Kage]

Just as a comment on this.  My Inq main is a DW rogue.  My current go-to group for my NM run is Sera/Cass/Dorian.

 

I've tried to like Sera as an archer.  I've tried a few different specs.  I've let her run as AI, and I've taken control of her manually.

 

Then I respecced her to DW.

 

In my personal experience (which is purely anecdotal, so take it with a grain of salt), things die MUCH more quickly with both of us as DW, rather than one DW and one archer. Easy groups, hard groups, rifts, keeps, dragons.

 

You keep saying that archers sustained dps balances out over time with dagger burst dps.  But I have a hard time seeing that, purely due to how much more quickly things die with my current setup.  I can only assume that either I'm bad at archers, or you're bad at DW.

 

Forgive my ego, but archer seems pretty easy-peasy, so ...

 

Edit: (Disclaimer: I micromanage my two DWs, which may make a difference.  Perhaps AI controlled archers are better over time than AI controlled DW. But two micro DW kills things faster than micro DW + micro Archer, for sure).

 

I agree with you.

Archers are all about sustained DPS, so they are good against a boss that have millions of HP.

However, in this game there are no such battles, all the battles are very good with short burst attacks. Even a dragon, since it has phases.

 

So with a burst party, you just destroy a rage demon, go to pick the next target, destroy the pride demon, go to next target, etc. Between choosing targets you get your CDs and your stamina, and you are ready to burst the next one again.

 

Archers are not better DPS in any case. They are just super comfortable.

[Novadove]

my first character is a DW rogue. in fact I started as a rogue and finish as a rogue. it's very satisfying to see huge burst number. I thought I own the world or something until I start archer.

 

as a archer I don't see the huge number but I find myself breezing through the game more so than DW rogue due to how this game is.

 

fights finish quicker, no need pausing and less tiring. like someone said, it is comfortable.

 

I don't find DW rogue overshadow archer. in fact, it's the other way round. the only reason being playing as an archer, you wont fire at a position you know your arrow will hit sand. knowing well your 1st shot will kill 1 target, you will make full use of the 1st aim.

 

secondly, I find too many skill miss due to animation or repositioning for DW rogue. hinterland carta assassin, you Have to wait for them to strike before you can do anything. a normal arrow can hit them out of stealth. And when I twin fang, they do a zig zag dash and my twin fang misses. it's simply frustrating.

 

lastly, arrow miss due to terrain; I couldn't fathom why playing as an DW rogue you know how to position yourself for backstab but you don't know how to position yourself as an archer????

 

at least for myself, I have never miss my 1st shot.

 

playing as an archer in nightmare, I have zero use for tac camera because you don't need to. DW rogue I am constantly forcing myself to rely on pausing.

 

anyway all these debate is saying I did not play rogue, speak from theory but the fact is this is unlike DAO whereby I know for a fact, dagger out damage a bow by a long league. The fact is in DAI it is not.

 

fastest nightmare dragon kill, is it done by a DW rogue? No. 

3 sec is done by archer rogue without pausing or mage combo with pausing but just not DW rogue.

[Selea]

So? Nobody has tried the masterwork that automatically puts you in stealth when in combat if not attacking? I really would like to know how it works before having to trace back several hours to try it for myself.

I guess I will have to do it, however, because also googling around I found no answer to it, almost if nobody ever tried it (and it seems really strange to me as it is something that should get the interest of many people that play as an Assassin; either it really work as the tooltip says and people don't want to share it because they want to have their uber builds not shared to everyone or it is something that doesn't really work in practice and so for this it is not mentioned anywhere).

I fear that there's something that it is not quite as it seems there as it really is too good to be true on paper. Is it really possible that you can have automatic stealth in combat when you don't attack via a simple masterwork leather you can get quite easily from a quest? If it really does work as the tooltip says that masterwork can single-handedly be the thing that turns the Assassin spec the best spec for DW rogue by far.

[mutantspicy]

So? Nobody has tried the masterwork that automatically puts you in stealth when in combat if not attacking? I really would like to know how it works before having to trace back several hours to try it for myself.

I guess I will have to do it, however, because also googling around I found no answer to it, almost if nobody ever tried it (and it seems really strange to me as it is something that should get the interest of many people that play as an Assassin; either it really work as the tooltip says and people don't want to share it because they want to have their uber builds not shared to everyone or it is something that doesn't really work in practice and so for this it is not mentioned anywhere).

I fear that there's something that it is not quite as it seems there as it really is too good to be true on paper. Is it really possible that you can have automatic stealth in combat when you don't attack via a simple masterwork leather you can get quite easily from a quest? If it really does work as the tooltip says that masterwork can single-handedly be the thing that turns the Assassin spec the best spec for DW rogue by far.

I would love to try it, what material is it? 

[Novadove]

it is fade touch halla leather.

it wont work because it is bugged.

after crafting masterwork prowler armor, the description changed to increase maximum stamina by 15.

 

therefore, no one can ever answer that question till the game is patched.

[Maverick827]

I'd like to make a dual dagger rogue for my next character, but I cant imagine not micromanaging my tank all the time, and leaving a melee rogue to its own AI very frequently is disastrous.

[Selea]

it is fade touch halla leather.

it wont work because it is bugged.

after crafting masterwork prowler armor, the description changed to increase maximum stamina by 15.

 

Damn. Also for Golden Halla leather is it the same? 

It seemed too good to be true. Let's see if and when the bug will be patched how the mastercraft will work.

[FoamingForias]

How viable is controlling a dual wield rogue using the tactical camera? I played the prologue that way but it was fairly annoying the way my character would circle around a character for several seconds before activating twin fangs. I think I've heard someone say that having an AOE dagger can fix this animation problem: is this true?

 

And in general, anyone using tactical camera on the PC for a dual wield rogue?

[arkngt]

I'm basically always using tactical view for my DW Rogue and it works fine (except for an issue with switching targets mentioned in another thread). I seldom have issues like the one you're describing, except when it seems logical, i.e. if someone else or something else is in the way.

[TeamLexana]

I haven't tried AoE daggers in the SP, I was afraid they'd drag agro off of multiple enemies. It seems to do it in the MP but that might be a different beast all together for that since it's genuinely harder to corral enemies if you are hoping against hope that randoms will do it for you, lol.

[FoamingForias]

I'm basically always using tactical view for my DW Rogue and it works fine (except for an issue with switching targets mentioned in another thread). I seldom have issues like the one you're describing, except when it seems logical, i.e. if someone else or something else is in the way.

 

Thanks for the reply. Good to know.

 

It's perfectly possible I was doing something wrong.

[Maverick827]

Is there an ability that teleports you behind your target this time around?  It feels like this game needs something like that more than DA2 did, but I can't see anything that looks like that in the trees.

[TeamLexana]

I think Flanking Attack or something called that does, but only If the first flailing forward part of the attack connects. At least that what it looks like it does to me, lol. You flail forward to strike at the front and then appear behind them and stab them in the back - cloaked if you upgraded it. You can miss the first attack though, which of course means the second doesn't go off at all. I've launched myself off stairs before with it and even killed myself in the SP when I went barreling down a cliff when I missed, lol. I've since respecc'd and I don't use it anymore. It wasn't terrible dps, I just wanted my points elsewhere.

[cyph]

 
fastest nightmare dragon kill, is it done by a DW rogue? No. 
3 sec is done by archer rogue without pausing or mage combo with pausing but just not DW rogue.[/quote]

If you're referring to the tempest exploit, it can be easily done with a DW rogue as well. Using an exploit does not prove anything. thousand cuts work with a dagger just as well as a bow.

[mutantspicy]

No Flank Attack is exactly that.  A Flank attack.  If you are behind you lunge forward and attack the back, if are in front you tumble thru and attack the back.  If you are idiot you flail into a wall or up a hill and land flat on your face.  In other words you have to line it up.

[cyph]

I see tons of posts saying that they have to micro rogues therefore archers are superior. That just means you're struggling with a DW rogue and archers are easier to play which would make sense why you're having an easier time with archers.

Here is a no pause run with tier 2 armor and weapons only. Boss had 80k hp. This was the toughest boss for me. After tier 3 weapons and armor, difficulty just went way down.
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=fgRdcC5u0SE

Edit: this one has the regular dagger. Once you get dual blades tier 3 the kill rate goes way up.

Modifié par cyph, 09 décembre 2014 - 11:25 .

[Maverick827]

Ah, that doesn't sound very helpful. I think I'd need a ~10 meter "teleport behind your target" ability to even try to babysit a rogue with this terrible AI.

[Teutooni]

I have almost finished the game on nightmare with assassin rogue. My advice? Go archery until level ~15, then switch to dual wield. You need reasonably many skills and masterwork effects (hidden blades, walking fortress etc.) to both have the burst to effectively kill targets and stealth/dodge/parry to survive. Yes DW rogue is terrible early game, but later it is so much fun. I would go as far as say it is almost as powerful as Mage/Knight Enchanter - you can just burst an enemy and go back to stealth before anyone can react, reposition and repeat. Most of the time you don't even need to, normal enemies pretty much die to one deathblow.

[Khevar]

You need reasonably many skills and masterwork effects (hidden blades, walking fortress etc.)

 

Just curious, but why Walking Fortress instead of +5 guard?

[actionhero112]

I find you don't need anything on nightmare besides easy to miss. You're going that way anyways to get mercy killing before you get access to knife from the shadows anyways. I find that I never draw aggro with that passive and stealth. 

 

I really really want to get upgraded hook and tackle because it looks fun as hell. But it's inefficient build pathing so I won't. 

 

I'm going to favor melee rogues until I see a video that looks better than this, while not exploiting the Tempest glitch

https://www.youtube....h?v=EeOsVLOULg8

 

I just think daggers have more advantages than bows.

 

-Higher weapon damage, in this game it means a lot considering how everything scales off of it.

-More ways to layer masterworks. 

-More crafting slots (more ways to get critical damage +)

-Easier Flanking

-Twin Fangs > Long Shot early game due to armor shred

-Easier Shadow strikes

 

Personally I think people play bows because they're just easier. You can kind of just relax. 

[Zenthar Aseth]

I have almost finished the game on nightmare with assassin rogue. My advice? Go archery until level ~15, then switch to dual wield. You need reasonably many skills and masterwork effects (hidden blades, walking fortress etc.) to both have the burst to effectively kill targets and stealth/dodge/parry to survive. Yes DW rogue is terrible early game, but later it is so much fun. I would go as far as say it is almost as powerful as Mage/Knight Enchanter - you can just burst an enemy and go back to stealth before anyone can react, reposition and repeat. Most of the time you don't even need to, normal enemies pretty much die to one deathblow.

In my experience, DW rogue is great from the get-go. It's more challenging in the early levels, but that's part of the fun.