733 réponses à ce sujet

[Teutooni]

Just curious, but why Walking Fortress instead of +5 guard?

Because I did not have +5 guard at the time, I had to choose between 5 sec WF and +3 guard, and kind of stuck with it. The proc is easy to see and once you do you know you have 5 extra seconds to for example autoattack to regain stamina (useful in dragon fights). I'm not theorycrafting here, it's probably not optimal but it worked for me.

 

As for early levels DW in my experience it is inconsistent. Some enemies/AI behaviours can really screw you up randomly by turning to deny flank, getting knocked down etc. (seriously I have completely missed so many twin fangs because somebody knocked down the target). With just a couple active skills you don't really have a lot of backup options. Also terror demons are a pain to deal with with DW. Archer with leaping shot and 30% damage ring for it is awesome vs terror demons.

[Novadove]

Do you seriously think I will use an exploit and use it as basis for my argument?

 

3 sec nightmare dragon kill is using artificer ranger, 3 rogue 1 mage. no tac cam needed with hail of arrow.

[Novadove]

also, if anyone watch all rogue video on youtube, majority of DW rogue are trying very hard to reach their target or dragon say, after dragon jump, creating huge window period of NO damage.

 

if you add up the total amount of estimated time doing damage vs not doing damage (running), you will find 40-50% of the video time wasted on moving.

maybe "all" the videos are not up to standard which I do not know. but for sure that's close to what I experience as a rogue myself in my own game.

 

it is simply not convincing.

[Novadove]

@ khevar,

 

apparently, many DW rogue believes that all rogue skill will never miss by totally disregard real life context, pretext and factors.

 

Many focus on the "Hit" but ignore circumstances and sequence leading up to the so called "Hit".

[Zenthar Aseth]

Do you seriously think I will use an exploit and use it as basis for my argument?

 

3 sec nightmare dragon kill is using artificer ranger, 3 rogue 1 mage. no tac cam needed with hail of arrow.

Is there a particular reason you're acting all mysterious about it, instead of just explaining what you mean? We're all very impressed by now, I assure you.

[Novadove]

@ Zenthar,

 

I have extensive posts on artificer archer in the customization thread.

 

http://forum.bioware...ide-and-advice/

 

it's basically using artificer's 0.5 cooldown passive to maintain/sustain 100% crit with almost 0 coolwdown.

 

I have yet to see DW rogue that can compare to the efficiency of rogue archer.

 

even Cyph's encounter in his video, those fights a rogue archer can do it at the minimum, half of the time he spent at the same level and same equipment except not daggers but with bow.

[Matth85]

-Higher weapon damage, in this game it means a lot considering how everything scales off of it.

-More ways to layer masterworks. 

-More crafting slots (more ways to get critical damage +)

-Easier Flanking

-Twin Fangs > Long Shot early game due to armor shred

-Easier Shadow strikes

 

1) Higher weapon damage, but less iptime.

2) 30% more damage and 300% more damag taken is suicidal as a DW rogue, not as an archer.

3) I'll give you that point. The extra stat is pretty good mid-game. Though late-game it's not that great, as an archer is near 100% crit as well.

4) Flanking takes time. Time not dpsing. An archer never stops dpsing.

5) No. Twin Fangs isn't even close to Long Shot early game. 

6) Shadow Strike? Hardly worth anything. Deathblow deals more damage, Long Shot/Full Draw deals more damage.

 

I never get these arguments. Yes, obviously, a dw rogue deals more damage when he connects to a target. But you don't got 100% uptime. Every 2 second you do not attack, I got a longshot off. Every second you run, I got a auto attack off. When you run for 3 seconds from archer 1 to archer 2, I am killing arching nr. 3 and got poison on all melee. 

 

Also, early game an Archer destroys a DW rogue. It's not even a competition by then. Full Draw 1-shots about everything until level 10. (2.2k crit at level 6, 3.4k crit at level 9). Long Shot crits fort 1k-1.6k. Poison hit for 100 per tick, and can be AoEd via Explosive Shot. You are out of any danger, and can tactically evaluate any given situation without a problem.

 

Now, fun factor is subjective. DW is the most challenging, but also feels the most rewarding, of them all. DW are great, and can deal unhumanly high amount of damage. However, they are not better than Rogue Archers other than on paper and theoretical dps late-game. (2 dagger with 400 dps you say? Sure, you kill a dragon in 5 seconds, I kill it in 6. Who gives a **** at that point?)

 

Could this discussion rest? Archers and DW are close to each other. Whether anybody wants to admit it or not. If you don't believe me, go play both an archer and a DW rogue for about 50-100 hours each. You'll see that the less stat an archer get is countered via low stats pre-tier 3 gear, and less burst dps is countered via longer range and about 100% uptime dpsing compared to a DW with, at best, 70% uptime.

[Novadove]

 

sorry matth85, just wana proof my point. for those that don't believe.

 

level 23 first shot and I always open any battle with this damage. 1 shot mobs.

 

edit: if count in exploit of double spamming full draw, I can do 40k damage ~_~

edit 2: ya no one care 3 or 4 or 5 sec. I was forced to spell it out and, it's 500+ dagger

[Zenthar Aseth]

So, any of you take Parry with rogue? I like it a lot on early levels - far from optimal, I know, but it's fun. It's somewhat effective as well, since early on your limited escapes can be on cooldown, and it lets you take on 1-2 warriors head-on until you can stealth or whatever.

[Teutooni]

So, any of you take Parry with rogue? I like it a lot on early levels - far from optimal, I know, but it's fun. It's somewhat effective as well, since early on your limited escapes can be on cooldown, and it lets you take on 1-2 warriors head-on until you can stealth or whatever.

Yep, I didn't upgrade the parry, but it is definitely useful for some mobs (bears whose AoE hits behind them, for example) and most importantly fun to use.

[cyph]

Do you seriously think I will use an exploit and use it as basis for my argument?
 
3 sec nightmare dragon kill is using artificer ranger, 3 rogue 1 mage. no tac cam needed with hail of arrow.

So you used 3 rogues? How can you separate your one rogue damage from other rogues damage? With the proper gear, all rogues are easy mode. How fast can an archer solo mobs and bosses? That's the only way to tell the damage output. The archer is easy mode from beginning to end. No one is arguing that.

The bottom line is, play the class that's fun. If you like to stand back, hold trigger, then hit each ability button then the archer is the one to play. However, if you like a challenge then the DW rogue is fun and challenging before the top tier gear sets in and makes it press attack to win. Play how you want, all rogues are overpowered (all classes really).

We've proven that DW rogues are not difficult to play, just require more skills. The challenge is playing from beginning to end before the late game gear breaks the game. If you're having a hard time, it's not because the DW is broken, it just requires more skill to play them. /end thread.

[Matth85]

The archer is easy mode from beginning to end. No one is arguing that. 

 

The game is easy mode from beginning to end. This sentence is irrelevant.

[Blackstork]

The really challenging game is game on NM with 1 or 0 companions. (I really think its must be at least 1 because many places are companion-oriented and need some energizing/smashing/lockpicking whatever.

Beyond that its all cackewalk, especially if you already completed it once.

First game as NM FF on 4 men party was bit challenging at start because everything was new.

My new game is 2 man (women) party NM with ginger duster babe. I think it is going to be fun. 

[Tsunami Chef]

I used artificer and had a blast on nightmare for my first playthrough. Artificer is probably the least like the other specializations...but I didn't find it aweful at all.

[Matth85]

For a real challenge: Use the berserk masterwork. 20% more damager, 200% negative defensive bonuses.

Now we are talking risk/reward fun times!

[Blackstork]

For a real challenge: Use the berserk masterwork. 20% more damager, 200% negative defensive bonuses.

Now we are talking risk/reward fun times!

nah , its not funny btw. I could sit and spam FoF Flank Attack + Skirmisher, and never leave stealth as Tempest, while avoiding perceptive enemeis, or just fight under barriers.The challenge is to rely on less companions.

[MrHeartless]

 

I'm about 23 hours in with dual-dagger rogue on nightmare.

 

It's just straight bad compared to everything else there is it seems. In origins you could make a rogue viable on the hardest difficulty by dumping points into cunning and making him a dodge-tank with high crit chance, but since you cannot allocate attribute points the way you want in inquisition so doing that strategy is no longer a viable.

 

1. I started getting 2-hit by enemies with 2handed weapons while I was behind them, apparently their swings allow them to hit enemies behind them or something. There are many melee attackers with aoe abilities as well like bears that have stomp just destroy rogue on nightmare, wolves have something similar. A pack of 3 wolves just disintegrated my melee rogue like it was nothing.

 

2. You have to be behind enemies to make melee rogue viable, but they almost want you to play this game like an action game because enemies don't stand in one spot like they do in origins when your tank is holding agro, they move around constantly, and the only way to play nightmare is with the tactical cam on, and with A.I completely off. So you constantly need to adjust sometimes to moving enemies to get behind them which equals a total loss of DPS every time you're not attacking but adjusting your position to the enemies to get behind them properly. Seems like warrior would be straight better at this point.

 

3. Warrior seems straight up better especially on nightmare. You can deal nice damage, act as an offtank which rogue cannot do, have AoE, and you have that new guard power which lets you basically gain free HP from abilities.

 

4. Stealth so far has been entirely useless for me other than using it to break agro but the rogue is dying so fast that it seems useless because if I can't get out of the way of an AoE ability in time it doesn't matter if I use stealth, its dead anyway.

5. They give you varric at the very beginning of the game who is already a rogue and ranged which is already better than dagger rogue.

6. There is a major problem with stealth in tactical mode, due to the way any character is set to auto-attack automatically in tactical mode if you use stealth you character still auto-attacks. It makes using stealth-based abilities a complete pain in the ass. If I use any kind of stealth-based ability it should automatically stop my character from auto-attacking but because of how poorly designed this game is it makes it a pain in the ass.

I'll continue playing to see if it gets any better or if I can respec my character to ranged or something, so far its been really awful though.

 

Sorry, you are dead wrong. Play the game alittle longer, 23 hrs is actually nothing.

[Matth85]

nah , its not funny btw. I could sit and spam FoF Flank Attack + Skirmisher, and never leave stealth as Tempest, while avoiding perceptive enemeis, or just fight under barriers.The challenge is to rely on less companions.

You could also never leave stealth and let your team play the game for you. Why would you?

DW rogue, Assassin, 30% extra damage. 1 hit kills you.

Fun. Chaotic. Amazing numbers.

[Blackstork]

You could also never leave stealth and let your team play the game for you. Why would you?

DW rogue, Assassin, 30% extra damage. 1 hit kills you.

Fun. Chaotic. Amazing numbers.

The thing is that i view characters on their viability for semi-solo cases. My new game is me and only one companion limit. 

So team perks also good here, but tis different case. Nothing kills you a thing, you need to be usefull all the time. 

Not like that Selea dude who boasts and swears by MoD thingy where you do it and then sit in stealth and eat cookies till your CD off. ITs amazing stuff, but how much it is better then taking ranged Artificer for example or vice versa. I love how this game gives different choices. I think also that Arty 4 man party conditions could be compared to 2 man party in same fashion Hard compared to Nightmare. I dunno, its all flexible. Its just stylistic and composition differencies. Or you run like crazy and active 100% time ccing and comboing around, or you burst crazy damage and eat cookies in shadows quite oftenly, or you keeping range and praying for party memebers to make some crits in order to spam some stuffm spamming default weapon tree abilities.

[Xarius478]

also, if anyone watch all rogue video on youtube, majority of DW rogue are trying very hard to reach their target or dragon say, after dragon jump, creating huge window period of NO damage.

 

if you add up the total amount of estimated time doing damage vs not doing damage (running), you will find 40-50% of the video time wasted on moving.

maybe "all" the videos are not up to standard which I do not know. but for sure that's close to what I experience as a rogue myself in my own game.

 

it is simply not convincing.

 

If you watch my video, I hardly spend any time chasing the dragon down.  I'm almost always hitting it.

 

1) Higher weapon damage, but less iptime.

2) 30% more damage and 300% more damag taken is suicidal as a DW rogue, not as an archer.

3) I'll give you that point. The extra stat is pretty good mid-game. Though late-game it's not that great, as an archer is near 100% crit as well.

4) Flanking takes time. Time not dpsing. An archer never stops dpsing.

5) No. Twin Fangs isn't even close to Long Shot early game. 

6) Shadow Strike? Hardly worth anything. Deathblow deals more damage, Long Shot/Full Draw deals more damage.

 

2) Berserk is usable as a DW Rogue; a properly played DW Rogue shouldn't be getting hit.

3) Archers can achieve 100% critical hit chance as well, yes, but a DW Rogue doesn't need to do that.  They need 50% at most, and can get by with even less as an Assassin.  This frees up their stats, so they can get more Attack, Critical Hit Damage, and Flanking Damage.

4) DW Rogues have Flank Attack, which closes gaps, positions them behind an enemy's flank, and Stealths them.  They also have Evade to maneuver.

5) It is, though.  Regardless, a DW Rogue's main ability is Deathblow.  I think we all know how ridiculous this thing's damage is, and it's extremely spammable.  An optimally played DW Rogue (especially an Assassin) clears entire battles by spamming Deathblow.  Its damage can rival Full Draw, and it essentially has no cooldown and can be used to maximum effectiveness multiple times per fight.

6) Shadow Strike does decent damage, but that's not its main draw.  The cooldown reduction allows you to use abilities like Flank Attack and Twin Fangs more often.

 

sorry matth85, just wana proof my point. for those that don't believe.

 

level 23 first shot and I always open any battle with this damage. 1 shot mobs.

 

edit: if count in exploit of double spamming full draw, I can do 40k damage ~_~

edit 2: ya no one care 3 or 4 or 5 sec. I was forced to spell it out and, it's 500+ dagger

 

So 11k with Full Draw (which you can only do once per fight), and 22k with the focus active.  My DW Assassin does 50k with Hidden Blades, 31k with Deathblow, and 102k with Mark of Death, and that's all without a focus ability.

Now, let me just be clear: archers are still very powerful, but all things considered, I believe that an optimally played DW Rogue is superior.  The archer is certainly easy to perform well with, though.  I don't think that an archer (without using Thousand Cuts) can match my 20 second Nightmare Highland Ravager solo, especially without focus abilities.  I'm happy to be proven wrong, though; I enjoy learning about powerful builds.

I did do tests with an Assassin Archer, and the most damage I was able to put out in 20 seconds was about 200k.  Very respectable, but it doesn't match the DW Rogue.  Unfortunately, I don't have an Artificer with which to test.  

[Novadove]

@ xarius,

 

you don't represent the entire population of DAI rogue players, do you? 

the fact is in youtube, 9 out 10 rogue videos are "chasing" mobs. so the class itself is subjected to players' skills.

 

if your skill as a rogue is good, your damage is high. if your skill as rogue is bad, your damage is low. if you take aim at terror demon but it teleported, your hit misses.

 

The above mentioned simply highlights that melee rogue is not user friendly.

 

do you even know why I am using 2 rogue archers and no tank? if you don't perhaps try an archer in your next playthrough to high level.

 

20sec 200k is a joke. I already said 3 sec can kill a nightmare dragon. is nightmare dragon 200k HP?

 

even mages can melt dragon in 3 sec with shear combo. does it mean they are stronger than rogues?

 

besides, assassin archer is the weakest archer out of the 3 spec even tho it is the strongest for DW rogue.

you cant automatically assume DW assassin rogue is the strongest and it means assassin archer is the same.

In reality, it is just the opposite.

 

pretext: DW rogue talk about solo. that's your choice of playstyle. I don't fancy that. I like to have 4 party members and get ultra fast refresh rate so I can spam skill at near zero cooldown meaning I can spam full draw non-stop. so whether solo or not, that's not even viable as discussion plus I have never oppose that.

in the 1st place, this is not even about solo vs team play. archers cant solo especially arty which in essence is entirely the opposite. arty favors team play.

I am a team player. you cant fault me simply because you choose to solo I choose to team play. neither can one assumes just because I am a team player, if I play assassin rogue, I suck.

 

context: mob teleportation, not an issue. far away mobs, doesn't affect archer. unreachable mobs by terrain, no problem. all these a DW rogue can only watch an archer snipe their foes. high level archer and DW rogue team mates. 90% of my AI DW rogue never get to kill my target because they died BEFORE they even reach the target. They "walk/semi-run" which is wastes of every single second of dps.

 

also, I have NEVER say archers do more damage than DW rogue. But saying DW rogue out damage archer by huge leaps and bounds is delusional.

 

and if you assume archer rogue need to depend on focus, then you need to come back to reality.

 

@ Cyph 

 

if you want to see how much damage you do, simply turn off floating text damage done by party members and all the on-screen damage shown will be done by your main character.

 

to summarise, melee rogue is aweful because it depends on players' skills. just because a DW rogue do 1000k damage doesn't mean it isn't aweful.

there are too many frustration moments being a rogue. and those are assuming when things work out for you.

 

if DW rogue is not aweful at all, there shouldn't be this topic in the 1st place. Also, I will be part of the DW rogue and not playing a class call archer.

[Xarius478]

@ xarius,

 

do you even know why I am using 2 rogue archers and no tank? if you don't perhaps try an archer in your next playthrough to high level.

 

20sec 200k is a joke. I already said 3 sec can kill a nightmare dragon. is nightmare dragon 200k HP?

 

even mages can melt dragon in 3 sec with shear combo. does it mean they are stronger than rogues?

 

besides, assassin archer is the weakest archer out of the 3 spec even tho it is the strongest for DW rogue.

you cant automatically assume DW assassin rogue is the strongest and it means assassin archer is the same.

In reality, it is just the opposite.

 

pretext: DW rogue talk about solo. that's your choice of playstyle. I don't fancy that. I like to have 4 party members and get ultra fast refresh rate so I can spam skill at near zero cooldown meaning I can spam full draw non-stop. so whether solo or not, that's not even viable as discussion plus I have never oppose that.

in the 1st place, this is not even about solo vs team play. archers cant solo especially arty which in essence is entirely the opposite. arty favors team play.

I am a team player. you cant fault me simply because you choose to solo I choose to team play. neither can one assumes just because I am a team player, if I play assassin rogue, I suck.

 

also, I have NEVER say archers do more damage than DW rogue. But saying DW rogue out damage archer by huge leaps and bounds is delusional.

 

I'm well aware of an Artificer's capabilities, and the synergy it has with other Rogues.  I never stated that an Assassin Archer was the best; I simply gave the results I got as an Assassin Archer, and I pointed out that I don't have an Artificer with which to test.  As you said, Artificers work best in team scenarios, while this isn't crucial for Assassins.

I'm very curious to see these 3 second kills on Nightmare Highland Ravager without exploits, Thousand Cuts, or Flask of Lightning/Static Cage + Longbow of the Griffon, especially the Mage claim.  Obviously, you'll be able to beat my 20 second solo time if you use a party, but I find it hard to believe that you could do so in 3 seconds without the aforementioned strategies.  The only other possibility I can think of is a party with an Assassin and multiple Rogues (Mark of Death + multiple Hidden Blades + multiple Full Draws), but I assume that your Mage claim does not involve this.

I also never stated that a DW Rogue outdamages Archers by "huge leaps and bounds."  However, I do believe that the difference is there.  It's also completely false to say that DW Rogues are "awful" because they aren't as easy to use as Archers.  This thread exists because people initially had misconceptions as to the power of DW Rogues, but people now know that they are effective when used properly.

[Khevar]

the fact is in youtube, 9 out 10 rogue videos are "chasing" mobs. so the class itself is subjected to players' skills.

 

if your skill as a rogue is good, your damage is high. if your skill as rogue is bad, your damage is low. if you take aim at terror demon but it teleported, your hit misses.

 

The above mentioned simply highlights that melee rogue is not user friendly.

 

I think that's a completely fair statement.

 

If one is unaccustomed to the weirdness of the game's AI, haven't figured out which abilities synergize with others, haven't learned the tricks that certain mobs do (and their counters) and how to efficiently move around the battlefield, melee rogues are definitely going to be hard.

 

It was certainly hard for me when I first started the game.  I was tempted to drop the difficulty down a few times, but spending some time in this forum, getting some better gear, and figuring these things out really smoothed out my gameplay experience with the class.

 

Heck, the original post began with someone contemplating switching to archer because he/she thought the experience was awful.

 

I think it's a GOOD thing that the melee rogue is not user friendly.  But only because it's paired with phenomenal damage capabilities.

 

As much as I still remember my DA:O rogue fondly, there wasn't really a high skill cap in playing the character.  Once you figured out (or read about) an optimal build and got some good gear, everything would melt while you ate a sandwich.

 

[actionhero112]

1) Higher weapon damage, but less iptime.

2) 30% more damage and 300% more damag taken is suicidal as a DW rogue, not as an archer.

3) I'll give you that point. The extra stat is pretty good mid-game. Though late-game it's not that great, as an archer is near 100% crit as well.

4) Flanking takes time. Time not dpsing. An archer never stops dpsing.

5) No. Twin Fangs isn't even close to Long Shot early game. 

6) Shadow Strike? Hardly worth anything. Deathblow deals more damage, Long Shot/Full Draw deals more damage.

 

 

1.I pretty much never stop attacking from the start of a encounter to the end. With Flank attack + Twin Fangs + Shadow Strike and Hidden Blades all I have to do is switch to my next opponent. I have pretty much 100% uptime and I do natural AoE with my auto attacks. 

2. Suicidal for you. Late game an assassin barely has to spend any time outside of stealth.

3. It's an extra stat, mid game it's crit damage, late game it's flanking or att%. DW Rogues will always have the advantage gear wise and stat wise.

4. Considering that Flanking gives armor reduction and damage bonuses, I can argue that in losing 1 auto attack I actually gain damage. It allows me to take advantage of sneak attack, which means I can build pure damage, not crit chance like an archer and not draw aggro like an archer rogue will. (100 flanking threat reduction bby)

5.  Have fun with your 500 damage long shots and 50 autos while I'm hitting for over 1000 early with twin fangs every 8 seconds. Armor. Penetration. Learn it, love it. Everything has armor in this game, every physical dps needs it and the more you have, the better.

6. Shadow Strike lets you have quicker mark of death rotations which is where the real damage is, as well as allow for more stealth.  Plus it's a solid ability on it's own. 

 

I think everyone's problems with the melee rogue is just that, their problems. "It's TOO HARD" isn't an argument. It's an excuse. 

 

The uptime thing is cute but with all the ways you have as a melee to close distance and maneuver, it's not hard to simply zip around the battlefield as melee. You're also always flanking, which is better damage, frees up more efficient offense slots on your weapons and basically never gets aggro. 

 

Also let's be honest. Without a video, none of these "I can defeat such and such in under such and such," means anything. It's all epeen. With a warrior one assassin, a tempest and an artificer, everything probably explodes in around 3 seconds under ideal conditions. 

 

Cutting Words, Horn of Valor and Blessed Blades

 

Mark of Doom Hidden Blades

Thousand Cuts

Double Full Draw Artificer.

 

Kaboom. 

 

But even in ideal circumstances, the Rogue is DW for higher Hidden Blades Damage. 

And that's what it comes down to. Ideally played, a DW rogue does more damage than an Archer. This is balanced, because archer is easier to play. This does not equate to better however. 

[Coyote X Starrk]

Would never go back to my DW after playing my Archer. 

 

The damage output my Archer has is just too damn good along with not having to deal with fighting up close.