because archer is easier to play. This does not equate to better however.
I have killed the target long before you get close.
And no, I don't struggle to play a DW rogue. I love to play a DW rogue. And yeah, they do a tad more damage; But you don't get 100% uptime. No. You don't. Ever. Fight a dragon for 25 minutes low level, or some ****, and show me you can be on that boss as much as, say, Varric. A 15 second kill does not count, as 15 seconds is not any time to judge uptime on.
No?
No.
3 sec is my personal experience. 3 rogue archers 1 mage full crit build. all cunning gear including mage, all masterwork weapon t3 with Bianca t6 aim.
hail of arrow focus with full draw spam, all weapon with dragon killer rune, all members wear crit damage ring, cunning amulets and cunning hat.
drink fully upgraded mighty offense tonic follow by tears of the dead then open combat with focus
pointblank shoot activates full party auto attack with near to instant cool down on full draw and zero cool down on long shot.
full draw till dragon die. no need to enter tac cam.
edit: 1st full draw double spam opening preparation 3 sec not counted because combat not initiated. damage roughly 90k with focus
double long shot as filler 45k follow by double full draw 90k.
roughly damage output in 3 sec is about 225k with the the rest of 75k hp removed by team members.
edit 2: 1 full draw is 20k (extra 100% damage from tonic), focus ability makes 40k. double spamming is 80k+
5 sec kill 13 tries, 4 sec kill 2 tries and 3 sec kill 1 try. it's lucky but achievable.
mage combo kill 3 sec in youbtube. search for it but with pause.
3 sec is my personal experience. 3 rogue archers 1 mage full crit build. all cunning gear including mage, all masterwork weapon t3 with Bianca t6 aim.
hail of arrow focus with full draw spam, all weapon with dragon killer rune, all members wear crit damage ring, cunning amulets and cunning hat.
drink fully upgraded mighty offense tonic follow by tears of the dead then open combat with focus
pointblank shoot activates full party auto attack with near to instant cool down on full draw and zero cool down on long shot.
full draw till dragon die. no need to enter tac cam.
edit: 1st full draw double spam opening preparation 3 sec not counted because combat not initiated. damage roughly 90k with focus
double long shot as filler 45k follow by double full draw 90k.
roughly damage output in 3 sec is about 225k with the the rest of 75k hp removed by team members.
edit 2: 1 full draw is 20k (extra 100% damage from tonic), focus ability makes 40k. double spamming is 80k+
5 sec kill 13 tries, 4 sec kill 2 tries and 3 sec kill 1 try. it's lucky but achievable.
mage combo kill 3 sec in youbtube. search for it but with pause.
Sure, and you took everything (and planned everything) to make it work in this way. You see, the difference is just this: the video above where a DW kills a dragon solo in 20 seconds it is neither optimized to do so (even by the same admission of the user) and there was no mindblowing strategy involved to reach that beforehand, just skill on usage of the class. The same build could work in all other situations, with and without party members, even without using a focus ability. Your "3 sec kill" is not different than other same videos using Longbow of the Griffon on Sera or Thousand Cuts; it is a situational display that demonstrates nothing at all because it is tied to optimal parameters manifesting all together to come to that result, a thing that doesn't happen in normal gameplay (and when it does it isn't relevant for practical purposes). The DW Rogue video, instead, is normal gameplay replicable in other situations.
Your "3 sec kill" is something that has no value whatsoever since it is optimal damage done in a situation you programmed to achieve that kind of result. It is not a normal occurrence. Even with Artificer and all party members equipped with +crit chance items you cannot spam Full Draw (as some of you insist). This is just idiocy. And neither Long Shot (that btw at below 15 meters does crappy damage). To even spam Long Shot every second it would require 16 crits at once every single time, to do the same with Full Draw 48. That's not achievable reliably and please don't either insist it's possible because it is not. Even by crafting every single item you can on all party members with +crit chance (a folly because you then gimp those party members in normal gameplay) it would not be possible in a reliable way since it's impossible to reach 100% crit chance on a class that's not a rogue.
The fun part then is that people like you and Matth85 insist that DW Rogue is much better than Archer only in theorycrafting while all you talk about is just pure optimal and situational damage and nothing else, even more because the debate is Archer vs DW, and NOT Artificer Archer vs. Assassin DW (or another DW spec). You cannot just take the situation you prefer the most and just consider that as the base circumstance on which to approach the issue; practically you took the only spec onto which Archers seems to work better and then naturally that spec becomes the only point into which you consider their usual damage; i.e. you took the optimal damage (and either situational in that optimization) and you try to pass it as average damage of the class. It's hilarious.
I have posted in another post, xarius' video used thousand cut tempest glitch spam. it has no credibility.
look carefully in his vid. he used it twice.
also, if you played an archer, you would have known how to double spam archery skill. plus, at high level, even long shot is powerful, doing half damage of full draw. high level archer crit with almost every hit at 100% CC without the need to wear even 1 CC rings.
edit: with an ice mage using winter's grasp, long shot can combo with it and bring winter's grasp to 10k damage not counting long shot.
you can spam long shot to keep critting the frozen mob multiple times in real time if you know the timing well enough.
lastly, from your posts here and other threads, I know you are playing a DW rogue with mediocre knowledge on DW rogue and you have no archer character.
3 sec is my personal experience. 3 rogue archers 1 mage full crit build. all cunning gear including mage, all masterwork weapon t3 with Bianca t6 aim.
hail of arrow focus with full draw spam, all weapon with dragon killer rune, all members wear crit damage ring, cunning amulets and cunning hat.
drink fully upgraded mighty offense tonic follow by tears of the dead then open combat with focus
pointblank shoot activates full party auto attack with near to instant cool down on full draw and zero cool down on long shot.
full draw till dragon die. no need to enter tac cam.
edit: 1st full draw double spam opening preparation 3 sec not counted because combat not initiated. damage roughly 90k with focus
double long shot as filler 45k follow by double full draw 90k.
roughly damage output in 3 sec is about 225k with the the rest of 75k hp removed by team members.
edit 2: 1 full draw is 20k (extra 100% damage from tonic), focus ability makes 40k. double spamming is 80k+
5 sec kill 13 tries, 4 sec kill 2 tries and 3 sec kill 1 try. it's lucky but achievable.
mage combo kill 3 sec in youbtube. search for it but with pause.
I have posted in another post, xarius' video used thousand cut tempest glitch spam. it has no credibility.
look carefully in his vid. he used it twice.
Wait, what? The video isn't even of a Tempest; it's an Assassin. This is the video in question:
As Selea pointed out, outside of the Mighty Offense Tonic, there's no special set-up here; it's all normal DW Assassin gameplay, without even the use of a focus ability.
I have posted in another post, xarius' video used thousand cut tempest glitch spam. it has no credibility.
look carefully in his vid. he used it twice.
And you used Hail of Arrows + an optimal party composition + optimal itemization done appositely to reach that end. It is not normal gameplay damage, it is optimal damage planned beforehand.
Either if you don't use a glitch you can anyway kill a Dragon in 3-4 seconds using Thousand Cuts, if you tie it with optimal party buildup. But it will not matter anything.
And in fact notice how I am ever taking all you have said above as true (even when there are many things that seems impossible to me) just because it matters nothing if you can really do it or not as you say.
P.S: And the video I'm talking about DOESN'T use a Focus ability and it is normal Assassin DW gameplay. I sincerely don't know to what video you are referring to as there are a lot about Thousand Cuts Dragon kills.
I have posted in another post, xarius' video used thousand cut tempest glitch spam. it has no credibility.
I noticed you were refuted in that same thread by two people and have yet to respond.
Tell me now, how exactly does an Assassin-specced rogue use Thousand Cuts?
oh sorry I watched the wrong thread link and video. pls pardon my false accusation. I shall remove the other thread post which also contains the wrong accusation.
it is not 1 whole chunk of 45k full draw, it's 2 shots with 2 clones from hail of arrow each. each arrow deals 10k+ damage.
plus I don't add +attack%.
I have posted the previous photo showing 11k damage x 2 shots which is already 22k. add in another full draw x 2 shots will add up to 44k
that's how I get 45k damage.
edit: also, I don't add +attack%. it's purely cunning, cc and chd.
Not to mention the AI tactics sucks why have they removed the tactics ? and give us 4year old easy to use tactic ****
oh sorry I watched the wrong thread link and video. pls pardon my false accusation. I shall remove the other thread post which also contains the wrong accusation.
it is not 1 whole chunk of 45k full draw, it's 2 shots with 2 clones from hail of arrow each. each arrow deals 10k+ damage.
plus I don't add +attack%.
I have posted the previous photo showing 11k damage x 2 shots which is already 22k. add in another full draw x 2 shots will add up to 44k
that's how I get 45k damage.
edit: also, I don't add +attack%. it's purely cunning, cc and chd.
Ah, so you have two Artificers using Mighty Offense Tonics and Full Draw under Hail of Arrows, which gets you 90k.
After that, you said that you did 45k with Long Shot, but then you claim another 90k with Full Draw, but the target is damaged, so it should only do about 45k this time. So, you and Varric have done 180k. I assume that your third Archer uses Full Draw, Leaping Shot, and Long Shot. That's 20k with Full Draw, 10k with Long Shot, and probably 10k with Leaping Shot, so you're up to 220k. How is the Mage contributing 90k damage in 3 seconds? Fire Mine and Firestorm aren't options, because the Highland Ravager is fire resistant.
However, if your third Archer uses Mark of Death or Thousand Cuts, then you'll get it done. This method does still use two/three focus abilities, though (which doesn't invalidate it, but is still something to consider).
On nightmare you cannot play like you played normal or even hard. You need to start crafting and modding equipment for the entire party. Every stat boost is an edge, especially when you stick a level 16 weapon on a level 8 inquisitor or a level 23 one on a level 14 inquisitor. Get the masterwork equipment early
I have killed the target long before you get close.
And no, I don't struggle to play a DW rogue. I love to play a DW rogue. And yeah, they do a tad more damage; But you don't get 100% uptime. No. You don't. Ever. Fight a dragon for 25 minutes low level, or some ****, and show me you can be on that boss as much as, say, Varric. A 15 second kill does not count, as 15 seconds is not any time to judge uptime on.
No?
No.
What? 20 seconds is all you need with a DW rogue when played correctly. Show me an artificer solo that can kill the highland ravager on nightmare in 20 seconds. And sure even in that vid there were a couple missed auto attacks. Doesn't stop it from being the fastest nightmare highland ravager solo I've ever seen.
Hell I've gotten down to 45 seconds myself when I'm not pausing on my DW assassin.
You're going to tell me that killing trash mobs is more impressive than soloing a dragon through sheer dps? Please. I honestly don't care about that, it's not even impressive. Hell I don't even think the Assassin can even kill mobs the fastest, I'm pretty sure that title goes to the DW tempest with Flask of Frost and a bunch of precision detonators.
Yeah I would have to agree at this point. 1 tank (cassandra) 2 mages (yourself being one of them) and varric is probably the best combination.
I will change into an archer if I can respec, because right now the rogue is just dying way too fast from melee AoE abilities on nightmare.Do you know where I can buy this item to respec?
So does this mean you pretty much can't have melee rogues in your party on nightmare at all? I'm barely into the game so I'm not sure if there are party NPCs that are DW rogues.
So does this mean you pretty much can't have melee rogues in your party on nightmare at all? I'm barely into the game so I'm not sure if there are party NPCs that are DW rogues.
Can you? Absolutely.
The real question is: will you enjoy the playstyle?
I do myself, currently running with 3 melee rogues + solas. Others prefer the ranged rogue. It's very a different experience.
My suggestion, try it out and see what you think. You can respec at any time.
I tried melee rogue again.
The damage is very nice.
But archer rogue just felt much more fun.
I rather have lower damage and have more fun honestly. *shrug*
I tried melee rogue again.
The damage is very nice.
But archer rogue just felt much more fun.
I rather have lower damage and have more fun honestly. *shrug*
Well, obviously fun is most important.
Some people, myself included, think archer is super boring and melee rogue is fun. Others disagree. There is no universal truth.
oh sorry I watched the wrong thread link and video. pls pardon my false accusation. I shall remove the other thread post which also contains the wrong accusation.
it is not 1 whole chunk of 45k full draw, it's 2 shots with 2 clones from hail of arrow each. each arrow deals 10k+ damage.
plus I don't add +attack%.
I have posted the previous photo showing 11k damage x 2 shots which is already 22k. add in another full draw x 2 shots will add up to 44k
that's how I get 45k damage.
edit: also, I don't add +attack%. it's purely cunning, cc and chd.
xarius no.
11k this damage figure is not optimized; it is a random shot with superb demon slaying rune and without tonic.
it is unaltered figure with no buff. I just load a game and go to a dragon and randomly shoot him to take screen shot.
the 2nd 11k is from hail of arrow. when you fire the 1st full draw, you can spam the keyboard to get an instant 2nd full draw. so that's 40k damage opening.
none of the archer has leaping shot because "leaping" takes 2 second. only full draw and long shot are activated in tactics. no stealth or back flip to speed things up.
this will also reduce unnecessary use of explosive shot and limit sera to use only lightning and fire flask.
mage is used for critical hit and barrier only. mage doing crit help 2 artificer refresh CD while casting barrier to prevent interruption.
varric will full draw once only and sera will lightning flask long shot as opening but mage will open with barrier always.
also, if with buff, all 4 party members have to drink fully upgraded tonic. because all 3 archers are 100% CC
pressing f2, f3, f4 together with button 0 for everyone to buff takes 1 second but it's outside combat initiation of cos.
I do not know if archer can solo nightmare because I have never try it.
To be honest, I’ve found that the DW Rogue is perfectly capable so far in Nightmare. Coming off a Hard playthrough, I found that after the first 5 hours Hard became very manageable, and after 25 hours or so Hard became quite easy (for the remaining 70 hours I played the game). I considered kicking up to Nightmare but I figured I would just wait and do a pure Nightmare playthrough for the trophy.
Some context:
There’s no real secret to beating Hard with little trouble – it’s not about being skilled. Just a couple of things to keep in mind, really.
Honestly, if you take the game slow and do most sidequests, you’ll end up being 2-5 levels over in all the areas, which makes most fights trivial. Of course, if you want to impose additional artificial constraints on your playthroughs, like soloing or rushing into areas where you’re below level, then knock yourself out.
I’m not having too much trouble with DW Rogue on Nightmare, but that does genuinely require a lot more Tac Cam and finagling. I’m kiting, creating kill zones and drawing enemies out one at a time, and switching between my Rogue and Warrior so I can parry/block blows as they come. I expect as the game goes on I’ll be looking to exploit shaky AI and creating boss-fight specific builds, too. As well as actually using tonics, grenades and focus abilities. But that’s part of the challenge.
Just wanted to pop in here and say that I'm finding Melee Rogues to be really strong with the right set up.
The trick is 2xMasterwork Dual-Blade daggers with +Guard on Hit, or +Heal on kill. The attack animation changes entirely - your rogue will be making huge sweeping strikes hitting everything around him while generating guard and getting all the flanking damage goodness. It is _really_ strong.
This.
Was my plan right from the start of my second playthrough; but lvl 10-15 in nightmare as a rogue is just too damn annoying; almost anything 2 shots you if you don't have a barrier up. And since you are using up so many potions to survive, there are none left when the tank needs them; mind you this is when the tank is holding aggro
AoE enemies like the darkspawn alpha / those screaming demons that KD, just cant be killed by the rogue, he dies in 10 sec then the other 3 party members kill it; dont even bother reviving since its a waste of potions.
Guard on hit and heal on hit will change that though and make the rogue more survivable; but until you get you first set of masterwork schematics, I recommend playing as an archer... switch to DW rogue at lvl 15 or so.
Was my plan right from the start of my second playthrough; but lvl 10-15 in nightmare as a rogue is just too damn annoying; almost anything 2 shots you if you don't have a barrier up. And since you are using up so many potions to survive, there are none left when the tank needs them; mind you this is when the tank is holding aggro
almost anything 2 shots you if you don't have a barrier up
2 shots
Why would you get hit?
AoE enemies like the darkspawn alpha / those screaming demons that KD, just cant be killed by the rogue, he dies in 10 sec then the other 3 party members kill it; dont even bother reviving since its a waste of potions.
Why would you get hit? Attack the maulers when they are not attacking.
Guard on hit and heal on hit will change that though and make the rogue more survivable; but until you get you first set of masterwork schematics, I recommend playing as an archer... switch to DW rogue at lvl 15 or so
Why would you get hit?
Okay. One more time: Why would you get hit?
A rogue is not a tank. You are not suppose to have a 100% uptime. You are not suppose to smash your pretty little face into **** until it dies. You do a combo, you get out, you wait. Like a rogue. Look at the assassin enemies; They play better rogues than the average DA I player apparently. Combo - evade - stealth - repeat. Combo - evade - stealth - repeat. Say it after me now! Combo - Evade - Stealth - Repeat.
Obviously, once you get Tier 3 stuff you can do whatever you want. Play a Pseudo warrior if you want. No worries there. But that is not the norm of a rogue DW playstyle.
Having just gone through my pre-skyhold-no-specialization-completionist-ending in Ferelden Frostback dead - playthrough, I can say 1 thing for certain: No other class can out dps a DW rogue early game. At level 1 I hit for near 500 damage. At level 5 I hit for over 1k. With Twin Fangs. Which I can use often.
Powerful thread; still going...
I was finding DW assassin really fun but incredibly squishy until i found some fade touched obsidian that gave 3 guard per hit. combo that with the masterwork that gave you the 10% chance to cast hidden blade with 5 extra hits on hit i was able to keep maxed guard on my assassin and the build was no longer squishy in the slightest in fact i hardly ever found my health below max unless i was taking shortcuts and jumping down from cliffs.
The only thing i would have liked was autoattack since melee is still abit of a chore on keyboard mouse without autoattack but i decided to buy an XBox controller for my PC on the first day of playing after being exasperated and it has been a much better experience since.
I get that archers are alot easier to play but with the right build and setup dw assassins are hell of alot of fun to play. i was rocking base 97% crit chance with 127% crit damage bonus and alot of flanking damage after adamant. 100% crit with varric since he has the passive that gave 5% crit to everyone. the amount of damage my assassin was churning out was really impressive compared to what i was doing while using sera to test out the archer spec. you don't get 100% uptime with dps but when you do connect you usually just 2 skill shot anything.
The thing is you must control the assassin personally since AI just cannot do justice to the dw assassin rogue. Which is ok since AI is much better at controlling ranged classes so i rather let them be more effective
The thing is you must control the assassin personally since AI just cannot do justice to the dw assassin rogue.
Which is strange however because for enemy Assassins the AI is pretty capable. Much more, actually, than many human players in this thread that continue to insist - it seems - on wanting to use a DW rogue as a pseudo-warrior.
It is really mindblogging that the party AI actually works (much) worse than enemy AI in practically all the cases for what it concerns offensive capabilities: ranged enemies stay on range and go outside of AOE effects, DW rogues characters go in stealth all the time and attack squishy party members plus they are really good at evading + hitting + evading again, 2 handed warriors are much better at building up guard. Compare this to how party members behave and you have something really fishy going on.
It is really really strange as it should be the contrary (usually more attention is given to party members AI than enemies in games like this; or they both suck for what it concerns the AI or enemies more so than the party members, while for DA:I is exactly the contrary). It is not that the programmers couldn't do it for party members because the AI is there for enemies and it works well, so I cannot really understand why this decision. Either party AI was not finished for time constraints or there's something I cannot quite understand on why this is so.
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