Of all classes, melee rogues are ALWAYS the most complained about.
Either by people who play them like squishy warriors and wonder why they end up dead or people who think they're OP.
Divinity: Original Sin forums were also full of threads complaining about how useless/bad melee rogues are. And if anything, melee rogues were even better in that game than in DA:I...
It seems like a common theme in games, people just playing rogues, well, wrong.
I'm trying to do a qunari mage playthrough and a dwarf warrior playthrough, and god is their damage bad by comparison.
A mage starts out really much weaker on damage than a DW rogue (and not only on damage but also on survivability given they don't have an immediately removal of aggro skill as stealth) but when you get some passive skills and active skills to actively combo and (if you want to go the nuke direction) you take the Rfit spec then things begin to change. Surely they still cannot compete with DW rogue as far as damage output but they surely are very powerful (static cage + fire mine + barrage, for example, dish huge amounts of damage on an AOE, especially on high crit mage builds) and in certain encounters they even shine better than DW rogues just for the AOE capabilities.
Add to this the CC in a way that only mages have and on mid/late game Rift mages have nothing that makes them (much) worse than DW rogues. They just approach combat differently. The only instance into which they are clearly worse is against single boss enemies.
Moreover damage is not everything in a cRPG. Sure, there is a great sense of accomplishment on playing a DW rogue and killing things in 1-2 shots, but there is also immense satisfaction on firing a spell after another and controlling the battlefield like a Rift mage can do.
dude i played as a squishy warrior mostly because i couldnt read any of the descriptions.
question how high did you get your daggers Dm wise i got to near 500 dm.
Well I just completed my hard play through with a melee rogue and I must say they are way more powerful than you are giving them credit for, in fact their damage is so good, even when fighting dragons I tend to have my rogue doing the majority of damage while the mages support/auto (I don't even check to see if the dragon is fully resistant to the staff or spell damage). Rogues are especially powerful on bosses ,particularly dragons, since it's single target dps for most of them, the niche that rogue excels over all in. They are also great for taking out mages or archers (who tend to be the most problematic enemies) very quickly, so you don't have to worry about them shooting from a mile away at your mages.
Prior to this I played a 2h warrior, they are cool but it didn't feel like I was doing as much damage as a rogue and had the same survivability "issues" until I got the reaver specialization, from there it was fine for the most part, but I still lacked the dps and tools of a melee rogue. Of course the swing arcs made up for it but eh. I think I agree with everyone else that a lot of people don't get the playstyle and healing probably allowed them to play their rogue like warriors in previous DA games. Since I normally play melee in all my rpgs I'm accustom to their playstyles with or without healing.
Eh, just not true but it is a powerful thread for sure....20 pages and going strong.
The harder difficultly levels are only easy for mages and warriors. You have to take a lot of damage or do a lot of planing.
Uh.......
I should write a neon sign over my head: Why would you get hit?
Stealth - 24 second CD
Flank Attack - 8 second CD
Evade
2x taunt on tank
Barrier
Winter's Grasp
Explosive shot
Knockout Powder
Twin Fang knocks down
Deathblow knocks down
Shadow Strike knocks down (I think)
Go into stealth.
Pick a target
Twin Fang the poor dude.
Hit it.
Deathblow it/Whatever you want.
Flank attack next target.
Repeat.
Stealth
Repeat
Dry hump the mauler
???
Win
Also, warriors got a tougher time than rogues in every scenario. Mages only get it easier late-game. Rogues, both archer and DW, does well in every scenario(except a certain demon boss at a certain templar quest...) at any stage in the game given they got their daggers updated/got enough armor penetration.
I have only struggled with my DW rogue once. It was level 7, using 2 level 3 daggers. I got to the level 8 area in the Hinterlands. Bears, Great bears, High armored Maulers and a bandit leader. I couldn't hit for more than 1-3. That was not due to the DW rogue being bad -- that was because my daggers and gear were level 3 gear!
?
I've never had any issues with my mage on harder difficulties
Only time I had an issue was when the tank died. And if the tank died even my archer was boned.
Edit: Wow I can't believe it took me 3 days to realize I said lower instead of harder >_>
This is really odd, I've finished my mage playthrough and I was doing 2h warrior next. Didn't like it much so now I'm trying out DW rogue on nightmare (I only play on nightmare) and wow. Its really easy. You should never be attack by an enemy. Always attack with stealth and flanking for massive damage. Flank attack makes for a great escape/positioning tool on a short cooldown. I focus on ranged enemies and burst them down. The AI for Cassandra does a great job of holding aggro.
All you really have to watch out for are enemies with AoE abilities. Don't underestimate parry or evade for a rogue. They can save your butt.
Fights at low level are like this:
Stealth
target squishy archers or mages first
Twin Fang
Auto attack a few times to regain stamina
Flank Attack
Deathblow
I probably killed two archers by now or close to it. Just watch out for AoE attacks and your invincible. Always run away if you ever gain aggro. Never take hits, your not a warrior.
What I'm shocked by is just how safe and fun it is to play a DW rogue. Stealth allows you to be more tactical, focusing on squishy target first while the rest of your team backs up your party tank.
And an upgraded Evade is the best thing ever in Nightmare!
Fights at low level are like this:
Stealth
target squishy archers or mages first
Twin FangAuto attack a few times to regain stamina
Flank Attack
DeathblowI
Once you reach Stronghold all fights start.
Stealth
target squishy archers or mage first
Hidden blades overkill
Find big bad
Mark of death
Give some instructions to Sera.
Find next squishy archer or mage
Flank Attack
Twin fang or deathblow.
Although I agree with a lot of what you are saying, partly this is just getting out of a particular mindset when it comes to rogues. The prior DA games taught you that rogues should be up in the thick of it and using their auto-attacks to back-stab stuff. This will get you killed in DA:I. In fact, on higher difficulty levels, I'd argue that your melee rogue should never almost never be auto-attacking - it should be a quick in to use an ability and then get out again.
As far as attacking melee two-handers goes, I agree that it's BS that they hit you in a 360 arc with standard attacks, but again you should be asking yourself if a rogue should really even be getting close to something like that in the first place? Rogues should be taking out the squishes in back, and if engaging a more armored opponent is necessary, you need to pick your spots. Typically, I wait until my mage has frozen one of the big guys, hit him with Twin Fangs or other detonator and then dive out again.
Really, what really needs to happen is to allow characters to swap weapons in combat - then all of these problems go away since you could just switch to a bow when dealing with the big dudes. It would allow more diverse character builds too.
again its the whole picking flowers with the rouge when you can't attack a mini-boss guy. I mean its just dumb. I mean are there any other enamies that comlpetely negaite a class from the game? Even the Red Templar ones where they are immune to magic spells are still not immune to the mages autoattacks. So mages are still useful if not just for the barrier buff.
again its the whole picking flowers with the rouge when you can't attack a mini-boss guy. I mean its just dumb. I mean are there any other enamies that comlpetely negaite a class from the game? Even the Red Templar ones where they are immune to magic spells are still not immune to the mages autoattacks. So mages are still useful if not just for the barrier buff.
You don't "pick flowers" ffs. You just do a combo, evade, combo again (better if you wait the right time to do it). What's so difficult to understand? You just don't stand there all the time as a fighter as you have not the same survivability, it doesn't mean you do "nothing" (all the contrary in fact, given how in those combos you do more damage than all the other party members combined).
But again, if you insist on wanting to play the DW rogue as a pseudo warrior just put +guard items on the daggers. Problem solved.
Artificers and Assasins do upgraded Evade (its bread and butter skill for them), when cant do other stuff, because :
1. Monsters with aoe attack will hit your mirror for 300% WD
2. Not aoe , targeted on you, will get damaged for 300 % WD
3. You are not being hit after combo
4. You have better repositioning angle/oportunity for flanking.
5. Upgraded Evade is 300% WD damage skill with non-existant CD, which, in many cases are additional means to do damage, if you time your movement well.
6. Unlocking ambush is essential.
Tempests have their flasks, and lack direct damage skills on bards, so for some cases they may drop Evade to have some basic stuff other DW have by default.
If you have FoL + FoFi + FoFr, Evade in many many cases will be just overkill which takes from you another ability slot which can do damage/detonation you need so badly
again its the whole picking flowers with the rouge when you can't attack a mini-boss guy. I mean its just dumb. I mean are there any other enamies that comlpetely negaite a class from the game? Even the Red Templar ones where they are immune to magic spells are still not immune to the mages autoattacks. So mages are still useful if not just for the barrier buff.
They don't negate rogues. The 2h warriors only do 360 attacks at the end of their animation series. You just have to do your damage before that, get out, rinse and repeat. Or disable them.
They don't negate rogues. The 2h warriors only do 360 attacks at the end of their animation series. You just have to do your damage before that, get out, rinse and repeat. Or disable them.
If Artificer or Assasin - time Evade well and those guys will get even more damage from you. Their animation easy to predict.
If you are Tempest this is even cheesier - with FoFr you Freeze, With Fol you can just evade the sweeps, Fofi kept for Sweep end to ensure you will deliver load of SS and will be sure they will hit target while you wont be unharmed in your vulnerable state and deal "unharmed" damage with SS.
Artificers and Assasins do upgraded Evade (its bread and butter skill for them), when cant do other stuff, because :
1. Monsters with aoe attack will hit your mirror for 300% WD
2. Not aoe , targeted on you, will get damaged for 300 % WD
3. You are not being hit after combo
4. You have better repositioning angle/oportunity for flanking.
5. Upgraded Evade is 300% WD damage skill with non-existant CD, which, in many cases are additional means to do damage, if you time your movement well.
6. Unlocking ambush is essential.
Tempests have their flasks, and lack direct damage skills on bards, so for some cases they may drop Evade to have some basic stuff other DW have by default.
If you have FoL + FoFi + FoFr, Evade in many many cases will be just overkill which takes from you another ability slot which can do damage/detonation you need so badly
You don't need to evade anything when you one shot everything (minus bosses and dragons of course) and have permastealth as an assassin. I'm probably going to try a no-crafting, healing pot only nm run as an assassin and maybe I'll change my mind then but I can't think of any skill I'd want to drop for evade.
I've found melee rogues are fine in casual encounters, even against AoE mobs, but ONLY if you completely turn off the AI. Seriously, a DW Rogue is the most suicidal AI in the game; I'm pretty sure I've seen it leave the creature I told it to attack and run across the screen to make sure it got hit by an AoE attack before.
When I first started playing my Rogue every time I left him alone for even a second I'd return to see him running directly into AoE, running directly at the only mob on the screen that's guaranteed to kill him immediately, leaving stealth to auto attack someone who happened to run by him. If you think a DW Rogue is hard to control just turn off the AI completely and try again. You may be surprised.
As far as bosses go, though, I agree the design is stupid. So many mini-boss/boss type creatures have a million anti-melee abilities and zero anti-range. It's not that melee is impossible to play in those situations, it's that bosses barely even fight back against ranged characters, so why ever melee?
Just go solo or duo then. You can't drop fast thought mobs till late middle of game alone from one burst, and certainly can't do that with elites. In such case you will suck and will be waiting for CD end or die. Late game is late game and early-mid game is what matters. Just try duo with assasin DW on nightmare you will understand what I am talking about.You don't need to evade anything when you one shot everything (minus bosses and dragons of course) and have permastealth as an assassin. I'm probably going to try a no-crafting, healing pot only nm run as an assassin and maybe I'll change my mind then but I can't think of any skill I'd want to drop for evade.
Just go solo or duo then. You can't drop fast thought mobs till late middle of game alone from one burst, and certainly can't do that with elites. In such case you will suck and will be waiting for CD end or die. Late game is late game and early-mid game is what matters. Just try duo with assasin DW on nightmare you will understand what I am talking about.
Trash encounters are trash and do not need minmaxing. While those early-midgame bosses and elites matter, and there is a major difference. If you play without evade then you are worse than you can be with it, because of you uptime/your deaths/damage/ etc. You won't be able to flank evade beam from despair demon even, which could hit you regardless of your stealth during apprach and your flank won't be easy task because of big chance that despair will move once you get into fa range and fa it.
You gimp your uptime without evade on assassin, so you do gimp your damage capabilities.
During early game Twin Fangs + Deathblow rules the day and most attacks that can kill you outright have big telegraphs that you can easily get away from without evade. As soon as you unlock assassin you can respec to get Hidden Blades, I Was Never Here, and Knife in the Shadows, and then the only problem you might have is with stamina until you pick up the stamina passives in the Sabotage tree. Even if you don't craft anything and just use the blue daggers you should have gotten by then you still do enough damage to one or two shot archers and mages and take nearly half the hp off of elites with just Hidden Blades.
If you're standing in one place and auto attacking as an assassin then I don't know what to tell you.
Eh early on it is since most things can **** you up in 1-2 shots, but as soon as you get decent armor and some nice daggers it becomes pretty much faceroll...
You don't "pick flowers" ffs. You just do a combo, evade, combo again (better if you wait the right time to do it). What's so difficult to understand? You just don't stand there all the time as a fighter as you have not the same survivability, it doesn't mean you do "nothing" (all the contrary in fact, given how in those combos you do more damage than all the other party members combined).
But again, if you insist on wanting to play the DW rogue as a pseudo warrior just put +guard items on the daggers. Problem solved.
No, you definitely pick flowers against bosses as a DW Rogue. You can ONLY approach bosses/mini-bosses to attack while you're stealthed, and a 24 second CD is an eternity in a game like this. Without stealth you're not going to even get through the attack animation of Twin Fang before, teleport/barrier/anti-melee AoE/Dead. Hell, even when I am stealthed most Wraiths get their barrier up before Twin Fangs lands.
So, you get a nice burst combo once every 24 seconds and spend the rest of the fight napping, and that burst is all relying on your attack out of stealth actually connecting, which, let's face it, is 50/50 with this games hitboxes.
This, pre-skyhold .No, you definitely pick flowers against bosses as a DW Rogue. You can ONLY approach bosses/mini-bosses to attack while you're stealthed, and a 24 second CD is an eternity in a game like this. Without stealth you're not going to even get through the attack animation of Twin Fang before, teleport/barrier/anti-melee AoE/Dead. Hell, even when I am stealthed most Wraiths get their barrier up before Twin Fangs lands.
So, you get a nice burst combo once every 24 seconds and spend the rest of the fight napping, and that burst is all relying on your attack out of stealth actually connecting, which, let's face it, is 50/50 with this games hitboxes.
Eh early on it is since most things can **** you up in 1-2 shots, but as soon as you get decent armor and some nice daggers it becomes pretty much faceroll...
This was my experience. I didn't really start crafting until like, level 7 or 8 or so. In the first few levels, things are tougher because you don't have that ability to evade and your spike damage is...not so impressive. But decent gear and decent levels, and enemies get rekt.
And as some people have shown, a solo Assassin can even take down a dragon on Nightmare.
People should stop feeding this thread to discuss rogue builds. Bumping a thread with the title Melee rogue is awful in nightmare is funky stuff 
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