People should stop feeding this thread to discuss rogue builds. Bumping a thread with the title Melee rogue is awful in nightmare is funky stuff
So, you get a nice burst combo once every 24 seconds and spend the rest of the fight napping, and that burst is all relying on your attack out of stealth actually connecting, which, let's face it, is 50/50 with this games hitboxes.
OMG. Never heard about a skill called "Flank Attack" the upgrade of which does a good chunk of damage and then lets you enter in stealth automatically and it has a CD of 8 secs? Learn to use it, since you obviously don't.
Flank Attack upgraded + Stealth lets you be in stealth about every 6 seconds reliably, that's less the CD of Twin Fangs, this even outside of a spec like Assassin.
Then you DON'T need to absolutely be in stealth to do a combo (from where do you get this is beyond me), you just need to flank. I cannot fathom how is is it possible for a person to pretend to insist a class sucks when he clearly has neither idea on how the gameplay of that class really works.
As for hitboxes if you miss 50% of the time then you probably cannot play well with a keyboard. Use a controller instead. But I guess you are just talking with hyperboles as it is always the case, it seems.
People should stop feeding this thread to discuss rogue builds. Bumping a thread with the title Melee rogue is awful in nightmare is funky stuff
Well, it's a good test to weed out the trolls, complainers or otherwise lazy guys!
If somebody jumps 21 pages and says "I agee, Rogue sucks!" - we know they are hopeless and/or trolling and/or just here to complain.
This, pre-skyhold .
And even some period after. All that bs in reply to me is quite bs because no one suggesting you should not move as rogue, opposite, when you move by running you are too prone to hits even stealthed. And moving WONT lend you any damage output, while evade does
C7rus sorry but you telling bs without any relation to what I said above.
LOL, whatever you say dude. It's a single player game and if rolling around everywhere makes you happy then by all means, go ahead.
Most decent players will figure out for themselves that with an assassin it's not worth giving up dps for any defensive utility, (evade, guard on hit, etc) even on nightmare.
OMG. Never heard about a skill called "Flank Attack" the upgrade of which does a good chunk of damage and then lets you enter in stealth automatically and it has a CD of 8 secs? Learn to use it, since you obviously don't.
Flank Attack upgraded + Stealth lets you be in stealth about every 6 seconds reliably, that's less the CD of Twin Fangs, this even outside of a spec like Assassin.
Then you DON'T need to absolutely be in stealth to do a combo (from where do you get this is beyond me), you just need to flank. I cannot fathom how is is it possible for a person to pretend to insist a class sucks when he clearly has neither idea on how the gameplay of that class really works.
As for hitboxes if you miss 50% of the time then you probably cannot play well with a keyboard. Use a controller instead. But I guess you are just talking with hyperboles as it is always the case, it seems.
First, the Flank upgrade is a good point, I honestly didn't know that and it sounds useful but it only partially mitigates the real problem.
Second, so if I were to attack Alexius or Envy outside of stealth what would happen? That's pretty obvious; either I die from an instant AoE response to getting within melee range, or Alexius pops barrier and teleports away.
Alexius is my best example because the fight's just so absurd; he literally will never pop barrier or even move if you don't get into melee range. He will just stand there and die if you hit him from range; it's downright astounding. Why would you ever get into melee range? Why design a boss fight like that at all?
Most RPGs end up balancing in favor of ranged DPS because being close to an enemy is just intrinsically more dangerous, but they at least try to throw SOME hurdles at ranged characters. Some AoE to dodge, some minions that can't be taunted, SOMETHING. I haven't seen this game even attempt to modestly inconvenience ranged characters yet, let alone challenge them.
Second, so if I were to attack Alexius or Envy outside of stealth what would happen? That's pretty obvious; either I die from an instant AoE response to getting within melee range, or Alexius pops barrier and teleports away.
Then the issue is in how you play the game, since lots of other players managed just fine.
Second, so if I were to attack Alexius or Envy outside of stealth what would happen? That's pretty obvious; either I die from an instant AoE response to getting within melee range, or Alexius pops barrier and teleports away.
1) Go to your mage.
2) Use dispel.
3) Go to your rogue.
4) Stealth.
5) Twin Fang his ass when barrier is down.
6) Run out.
7) ???
8) Dead
1) Go to your mage.
2) Use dispel.
3) Go to your rogue.
4) Stealth.
5) Twin Fang his ass when barrier is down.
6) Run out.
7) ???
8) Dead
So, Stealth, Twin Fang, retreat, wait for Stealth CD, re-stealth, Twin Fang, Retreat? What if Twin Fang misses? What if Alexius teleports or AoE's before Twin Fangs long animation finishes? Even out of stealth I see casters out-pace Twin Fangs animation plenty.
Do you know what's an easier way to beat Alexius? Just set any range character in your group to auto attack him from a distance. Alexius won't move, won't barrier, won't even tangentally fight back. I'm not saying it's impossible to do with a DW Rogue, I'm saying why bother using the DW Rogue at all when he literally won't fight back if you stay at range?
So, Stealth, Twin Fang, retreat, wait for Stealth CD, re-stealth, Twin Fang, Retreat? What if Twin Fang misses? What if Alexius teleports or AoE's before Twin Fangs long animation finishes? Even out of stealth I see casters out-pace Twin Fangs animation plenty.
Then your timing is beyond horrendous. No enemy will reacn the first second after stealth. This means a Twin Fang will hit before he eventually decide to react.
The only exception to this rule are Wraiths, as they can do barrier the milisecond you get out of stealth if you are too close.
I'm saying why bother using the DW Rogue at all when he literally won't fight back if you stay at range?
Because I killed Alexius in 3 stealth cycles?
Because between him and Envy, this one is ****** easy?
Because a challenge is fun?
I don't know, pick a reason.
I'm not saying it's impossible to do with a DW Rogue, I'm saying why bother using the DW Rogue at all when he literally won't fight back if you stay at range?
Because even if we take the rest of what you say at face value, Alexius is only one fight out of hundreds or thousands of other fights? Why not be a DW rogue, even if it's slightly worse than something else in one single fight?
Because even if we take the rest of what you say at face value, Alexius is only one fight out of hundreds or thousands of other fights? Why not be a DW rogue, even if it's slightly worse than something else in one single fight?
From what I'm hearing the envy fight is even worse, but Alexius is just the most blatant example that illustrates my point perfectly. Every caster mob you encounter will only barrier or make any attempt to avoid damage if melee approaches. Demon Terrors only notable offense is an AoE damage, slow and knockdown for everyone in melee range, and what's left is your typical melee archetypes that are only really dangerous to other melee characters.
Unless the enemy dynamic changes abruptly after Skyhold, the complete lack of any danger or challenge to ranged classes seems like it would have to be pervasive throughout the whole game, with the lone exception apparently being dragon fights. If I end up being wrong then I end up being wrong, but I've always made it clear that my opinions were based on my experience with the first part of the game.
From what I'm hearing the envy fight is even worse, but Alexius is just the most blatant example that illustrates my point perfectly. Every caster mob you encounter will only barrier or make any attempt to avoid damage if melee approaches. Demon Terrors only notable offense is an AoE damage, slow and knockdown for everyone in melee range, and what's left is your typical melee archetypes that are only really dangerous to other melee characters.
Unless the enemy dynamic changes abruptly after Skyhold, the complete lack of any danger or challenge to ranged classes seems like it would have to be pervasive throughout the whole game, with the lone exception apparently being dragon fights. If I end up being wrong then I end up being wrong, but I've always made it clear that my opinions were based on my experience with the first part of the game.
As a DW rogue, you should be insta-killing mages anyways. Terrors can be killed before they have a chance to do anything with a DW rogue as well.
Ranged = safer, less damage.
Melee = less safe (for obvious reasons), more damage.
Then your timing is beyond horrendous. No enemy will reacn the first second after stealth. This means a Twin Fang will hit before he eventually decide to react.
The only exception to this rule are Wraiths, as they can do barrier the milisecond you get out of stealth if you are too close.
Because I killed Alexius in 3 stealth cycles?
Because between him and Envy, this one is ****** easy?
Because a challenge is fun?
I don't know, pick a reason.
Having your DW Rogue engage Alexius when it's actually detrimental to the team isn't the kind of self-imposed challenge I find fun. It's immersion breaking; it makes no sense. The fact that Alexius is a significantly easier fight when you bench any melee characters in the party doesn't feel right and I consider it shoddy design. It doesn't matter that he's easy anyways; anything the DW Rogue does in that fight is wasted effort.
As a DW rogue, you should be insta-killing mages anyways. Terrors can be killed before they have a chance to do anything with a DW rogue as well.
Ranged = safer, less damage.
Melee = less safe (for obvious reasons), more damage.
I understand this but what I'm seeing is
Ranged = Never has to move; Never has to be controlled; Never in any even remote or passing danger unless all of your melee characters are already dead.
Melee = On top of the inherent danger of being in melee range it seems most enemy mechanics are designed to make closing distance detrimental to the whole team. It creates barriers that wouldn't have otherwise existed; prompts ranged enemies to actually start trying to avoid damage.
I understand the game will be a little easier for ranged characters, but this is too much. Throw SOMETHING at them to make the game a little more difficult. Don't have everything just sit there and not fight back against them.
Having your DW Rogue engage Alexius when it's actually detrimental to the team isn't the kind of self-imposed challenge I find fun. It's immersion breaking; it makes no sense. The fact that Alexius is a significantly easier fight when you bench any melee characters in the party doesn't feel right and I consider it shoddy design. It doesn't matter that he's easy anyways; anything the DW Rogue does in that fight is wasted effort.
In most games, ranged end up having an easier time. SImply because of range. Ranged also tends to be easier, because of range.
I have done this fight 3 times as a DW Rogue, and I have yet to find the difficulty. Hell - try fighting the boss at that party. That old chick. That is melee unfriendly. Or Envy, which gives melee about 2 second(which includes running) to do damage every 15 second, and if you mess up somebody is going to die.
This guy is simple: You stealth, get your mage to dispel, Twin Fangs, evade out, repeat. He's dead in half the time my archer could take him down.
Melee is a risk/reward sort of a deal. Esepcialyl DW Rogue, where you need to judge damage versus opportunity. Is this the right time to strike? yes/no. Can I get off a combo? Yes/no. If I do, while I get attacked by ranged enemies? Yes/No.
The DW rogue got a learning curve for sure.
That said, this is not a difficult fight. I am not sure what you are not doing right, but:
- Barrier got a CD.
- Dispel takes care of the barrier.
- Dispel got low CD.
- He teleports a second, or two, after taking melee damage.
- Twin Fangs can be used out of melee range, as it leaps you in. This guarantees you can get off Twin Fangs, given you don't do it as he moves. Timing!
- I am unsure if he can be knocked down/CCed. If so, Deathblow at under 50% means you've pretty much won the fight.
- You should have gotten a 200 damage purple dagger earlier this dungeon. That **** murders him. (For reference, I had 2 daggers doing exactly 100 damage. That sucked!)
However, if you just want confirmation: Yes. Archer is easier. Ranged is always easier. That's how it is. Not better -- easier.
1) Go to your mage.
2) Use dispel.
3) Go to your rogue.
4) Stealth.
5) Twin Fang his ass when barrier is down.
6) Run out.
7) ???
8) Dead
Pretty much this, and you do not need to move since there evade, and you also can slap SS there.
And Alexius is easy fight for Rogue + Mage, compared to Envy. On envy i would suggest to take the bow, jar him and crit your way with MK. (even if you evade, your uptime of your DW damage will be laughable, this sucker loves to move, alot)
You counter Envy just by having 3 things : Evade, Jars and Mercy Killing.
Compared to Envy, Alexius is cheeseful cheese of cheesness.
In most games, ranged end up having an easier time. SImply because of range. Ranged also tends to be easier, because of range.
I have done this fight 3 times as a DW Rogue, and I have yet to find the difficulty. Hell - try fighting the boss at that party. That old chick. That is melee unfriendly. Or Envy, which gives melee about 2 second(which includes running) to do damage every 15 second, and if you mess up somebody is going to die.
This guy is simple: You stealth, get your mage to dispel, Twin Fangs, evade out, repeat. He's dead in half the time my archer could take him down.
Melee is a risk/reward sort of a deal. Esepcialyl DW Rogue, where you need to judge damage versus opportunity. Is this the right time to strike? yes/no. Can I get off a combo? Yes/no. If I do, while I get attacked by ranged enemies? Yes/No.
The DW rogue got a learning curve for sure.
That said, this is not a difficult fight. I am not sure what you are not doing right, but:
- Barrier got a CD.
- Dispel takes care of the barrier.
- Dispel got low CD.
- He teleports a second, or two, after taking melee damage.
- Twin Fangs can be used out of melee range, as it leaps you in. This guarantees you can get off Twin Fangs, given you don't do it as he moves. Timing!
- I am unsure if he can be knocked down/CCed. If so, Deathblow at under 50% means you've pretty much won the fight.
- You should have gotten a 200 damage purple dagger earlier this dungeon. That **** murders him. (For reference, I had 2 daggers doing exactly 100 damage. That sucked!)
However, if you just want confirmation: Yes. Archer is easier. Ranged is always easier. That's how it is. Not better -- easier.
I appreciate the tips and the candor, but the problem isn't that Ranged is easier, it's the fact that ranged isn't inhibited at all. I'm through a good chunk of the Haven battle and since the very beginning of the game I haven't had to even reposition a ranged character once during combat. Just have them hold position far away when the red dots show up and you don't even have to look at them for the rest of combat. Well, I have to look at the Mages to manually use abilities like barrier and Static Cage, but that's about it.
This game takes the whole "Ranged is easier" mantra way too far.
Well.. yeah. Bioware isn't known for their amazing boss battle designs. The msot advanced boss function they got are on High Dragons -- pull closer when wings flap. Otherwise it's stay out of **** and don't be in melee. /shrug
I'll give Bioware a point for interesting characters, a good universe and the tactical gameplay. Otherwise it's rather depthless and medicore. But, hey, it's good enough to keep me hooked for 200 hours 
- I am unsure if he can be knocked down/CCed. If so, Deathblow at under 50% means you've pretty much won the fight.
Yes, he can be knocked down (but not stunned or paralyzed) and for this saying that the fight is "melee unfriendly" is something that's so wrong I have no words to describe how wrong it is. Hell, if you have a S&S fighter you can practically have Alexius always on the ground and only for the scripted parts (where he becomes invulnerable) doing actually something.
Practically Alexius can be, for all the fight, perma-knocked down by a melee S&S build, making the encounter completely obsolete and yet for whatever reason Alexius has now become a "melee unfriendly" boss. Mysteries of the net.
The only real "melee unfriendly" bosses in this game are Assassin's ones, as the Envy Demon, but there are only a few in all the game.
Yes, he can be knocked down (but not stunned or paralyzed) and for this saying that the fight is "melee unfriendly" is something that's so wrong I have no words to describe how wrong it is. Hell, if you have a S&S fighter you can practically have Alexius always on the ground and only for the scripted parts (where he becomes invulnerable) doing actually something.
Practically Alexius can be, for all the fight, perma-knocked down by a melee S&S build, making the encounter completely obsolete and yet for whatever reason Alexius has now become a "melee unfriendly" boss. Mysteries of the net.
The only real "melee unfriendly" bosses in this game are Assassin's ones, as the Envy Demon, but there are only a few in all the game.
Ugh, Alexius is a melee unfriendly boss comparatively speaking. Coming up with special strategies to 'knockdown-lock' him as melee is great I guess, but I never said there weren't ways for melee to make this fight work. What I've been saying ad nauseum is no matter what workaround you come up with it'll never compare to the ridiculousness of AFK auto-attacking him to death with 1 ranged character while he sits there doing nothing about it.
Maybe saying "melee-unfriendly" is the wrong approach. Would you feel better if I said these encounters are so shockingly and absurdly 'ranged-friendly' that ranged gameplay doesn't require even a token gesture of player input?
Well.. yeah. Bioware isn't known for their amazing boss battle designs. The msot advanced boss function they got are on High Dragons -- pull closer when wings flap. Otherwise it's stay out of **** and don't be in melee. /shrug
I'll give Bioware a point for interesting characters, a good universe and the tactical gameplay. Otherwise it's rather depthless and medicore. But, hey, it's good enough to keep me hooked for 200 hours
Don't get me wrong, I think this is a very good game overall as well and I'll be playing for a long time to come; but the fact that it is such a good game overall makes stuff like this even more frustrating to me.
think letting us move while attacking and cancel animations in melee would fix most of the technical problems; and, I dunno, maybe bring in some MMO developers to consult on how to balance encounters for both ranged and melee characters. Games like WoW may not have the range vs. melee DPS conundrum figured out yet, but they're way closer than this.
You get higher dps uptime with ranged and if you are not using a controller and are using the mouse/keyboard then i definitely agree melee rogues suck because of the lack of auto attack
However if you have a controller and are using it, with a good skill rotation as a melee rogue you can dish out massive amounts of burst damage far beyond that of any other class or spec.you actually have to control your rogue properly though weaving in and out of incoming damage etc. i find that the playstyle is alot more fun than just standing at distance and doing decent damage. You will die alot in the early levels since you are still quite weak but once you have enough skills and decent enough gear dw rogues are a blast to play
Alexius on of easiest bosses in the game to handle as melee.
You get higher dps uptime with ranged and if you are not using a controller and are using the mouse/keyboard then i definitely agree melee rogues suck because of the lack of auto attack
However if you have a controller and are using it, with a good skill rotation as a melee rogue you can dish out massive amounts of burst damage far beyond that of any other class or spec.you actually have to control your rogue properly though weaving in and out of incoming damage etc. i find that the playstyle is alot more fun than just standing at distance and doing decent damage. You will die alot in the early levels since you are still quite weak but once you have enough skills and decent enough gear dw rogues are a blast to play
Melee rogues definitely do not suck with a mouse and keyboard.
Alexius on of easiest bosses in the game to handle as melee.
I assume he's one of the easiest bosses in the game period, but that's completely irrelevant to my point. You still need specific skills, some semblance of a plan and to manually control your character the whole fight to beat him effectively as melee.
Where as a ranged character you could pass out at the keyboard and beat him without taking a scratch, so long as your head doesn't accidentally hit a fade-step hotkey and port you into melee range. This is the problem.
I assume he's one of the easiest bosses in the game period, but that's completely irrelevant to my point. You still need specific skills, some semblance of a plan and to manually control your character the whole fight to beat him effectively as melee.
You do not. I never controlled my other characters (Solas, Dorian, Blackwall) and didn't have Dispel, no specific plan, and it was still extremely manageable just by doing what I always do with my DW rogue.
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