733 réponses à ce sujet

[Gigamantis]

You do not. I never controlled my other characters (Solas, Dorian, Blackwall) and didn't have Dispel, no specific plan, and it was still extremely manageable just by doing what I always do with my DW rogue.

Never controlling Solas or Dorian is a given, Alexius won't touch them... ever.  As for Blackwall, I assume you at least had him holding position and shield walling the bolts, because if he was meleeing Alexius there's no way Alexius stands still long enough for you to do anything with your Rogue. 

 

I'm sure you beat Alexius fine, but if you did it the way you say you did then your DW Rogue was probably more of a hindrance to the effort than a help. 

[Zenthar Aseth]

Never controlling Solas or Dorian is a given, Alexius won't touch them... ever.  As for Blackwall, I assume you at least had him holding position and shield walling the bolts, because if he was meleeing Alexius there's no way Alexius stands still long enough for you to do anything with your Rogue. 

 

I'm sure you beat Alexius fine, but if you did it the way you say you did then your DW Rogue was probably more of a hindrance to the effort than a help. 

No, Blackwall was doing whatever he wanted. And my DW Rogue wasn't a hindrance, since he was doing the most DPS, as always.

[Gigamantis]

No, Blackwall was doing whatever he wanted. And my DW Rogue wasn't a hindrance, since he was doing the most DPS, as always.

So, you couldn't dispel barriers yet you feel causing him to pop a barrier every 10 seconds, or whatever his CD is wasn't a hindrance?  Forcing your mages to waste Mana to chain barrier you was likely also a hindrance, as well as any LoS issues you caused by prompting him to teleport all over the area. 

 

You just don't realize how much better off you would've been benching your melee for that fight, but there's no reason you would realize it unless you tried it I guess.  I did try it and the results made me think there's something very wrong with how boss encounters were coded in this game. 

[teks]

I picked up dual rogue because of this thread

 

I fought alexius without any particular strategy in mind. Just another boss.

I used evade to quickly close in on him, flank attack, shadow strike, twin fangs. Then I evade away and restealth before anything decides to kill me.

I did this on hard difficulty, and I only control my main character. The fight wasn't easy. My rogue did get caught once and darius had to bring him back up, but I did beat it on the first try, and my DW rogue was, as always, the primary source of DPS for the entire team.

 

Maybe I'm crazy, but I feel that skills like evade and bullrush marginalize the number one problem melee faces. Its trivial for a good melee user to close ground, and when they do they reap far higher DPS then ranged can achieve. Ranged is inhibited by its own mediocracy, and is best left to the AI.

[Adynata]

Melee rogue was my first playthrough and it was a lot of fun. Now that I'm playing mage, I have never died (lvl 20 now), yet I died a LOT on rogue. I think that's just part of being a rogue, though. Glass cannon kind of thing.

[StrangeStrategy]

The problem? Mages and Warriors both have ways to shield against damage. Warriors generate it solely on themselves, Mages can cast barrier on anyone. A DW Rogue without Barrier quickly gets beat down; Stealth is nice for getting in position, if you can' burst down a target with one hit (Twin Fangs is wonky, we all know) you feel bad.

Rogues may have stealth/evade, but they're not as good as other classes. Archers are ranged so they're fine, but DW needs some new mechanic / heal on kill... Something.

[Khevar]

The problem? Mages and Warriors both have ways to shield against damage. Warriors generate it solely on themselves, Mages can cast barrier on anyone. A DW Rogue without Barrier quickly gets beat down; Stealth is nice for getting in position, if you can' burst down a target with one hit (Twin Fangs is wonky, we all know) you feel bad.

Rogues may have stealth/evade, but they're not as good as other classes. Archers are ranged so they're fine, but DW needs some new mechanic / heal on kill... Something.

 

Not that this is likely to change any minds, but I had plenty of fun attacking the Crestwood Keep around level 11 or so with a party of 4 DW rogues.  No mastercrafting and no +guard on hit, no area affect regen potions.  I did have a good T2 daggers schematic and plenty of T2 materials, so I crafted a full set of 8 for everyone.

 

It required a lot of micro, which some people don't like.  I didn't mind it though.  The burst was absurdly hilarious.  At first I tried to focus fire, but things died so quickly that I was wasting attacks, so I split them into groups of 2.

 

The only problem I ran into was the leader, who was a 2-handed melee, couldn't be CC'ed and kept spotting my party through stealth.  I still pulled it off.

 

Later on I swapped out Varrick for Solas, as he could do both Energize and Bash for open-world exploration.

 

By the time I hit level 16, everyone had a +guard dagger.  Between that and the fully upgraded regen potions, I was able to let everyone do their own thing in real time with no micro, on a NM run (no friendly fire, however).

[teks]

The problem? Mages and Warriors both have ways to shield against damage. Warriors generate it solely on themselves, Mages can cast barrier on anyone. A DW Rogue without Barrier quickly gets beat down; Stealth is nice for getting in position, if you can' burst down a target with one hit (Twin Fangs is wonky, we all know) you feel bad.

Rogues may have stealth/evade, but they're not as good as other classes. Archers are ranged so they're fine, but DW needs some new mechanic / heal on kill... Something.

They have 100% threat reduction from the flank. Yeah that totally counts as an alternative. I'd be cool with 80% and still say thats strong, but 100%. Dang.

I got respeced out of it on my character later on as I found that stealth + evade + flank attack was more then enough to avoid being hit. Evade is tons of fun.

EDIT: I respecced out playing on hard, I'd probably keep it on nightmare.

[Moke]

I've signed in to this forum for the first time (long time lurker) to comment on this incredibly long thread.

 

My personal experience with the DW Rogue is that it absolutely wrecks. I've played through much of the game on Nightmare and I've never had a problem that I felt was due to me being a DW rogue. The damage is huge and once you get the armor penetration passives in the stealth and assassin skill trees nothing can shrug off your damage.

 

I try to group everything with my tank and have my two mages barrier/blow the area to bits while my rogue goes stealth and bursts down the archers/mage types on the outside of the fight. Then when you've dwindled their numbers you can go around and clean up. The DW rogue shreds and I rarely have enemies aggro me, It does happen sometimes and you can get caught by suprise and bursted to low health but for the most part I can stay safe by positioning myself behind enemies.

 

 

I will say that I cannot imagine playing this class with a Keyboard and Mouse, it would just be to clunky, not fluid enough.

 

But for those wondering about the viability of the DW rogue, let me assure you it is viable. I would entertain the argument that it is optimal, especially late game.

 

Funnest class (for me) that I've played so far because you just feel very powerful and sneaky. I love seeing those big damage crits pop up when I stab the **** out of enemies from behind. I strongly recommend using a controller though.

[HozzMidnight]

I think there are two different issues here that are being confused.

 

The game's companion AI is very bad.  Your party does dumb ****.  Ranged runs up to melee range.  The tank might stop attacking.  Rogues dont care about flanking positioning.  Etc.  This is frustrating especially since the enemies tend to exhibit more intelligent behavior.  IE enemy rogues try and get behind their targets, enemy archers/mages will try and escape melee range, etc.

 

The other issue is, how does a class play if you are controlling them?  While there are some issues with Dagger Rogue abilities, they are still the kings of single target damage, and are quite resilient with the right abilities and crafted gear.  Definitely Bioware needs to fix abilities not firing correctly, I have problems with pretty much all of active abilities at one point or another, but as a class relative to the other classes...I think Dagger Rogues are above average in terms of balance and playability.

[Skweetis]

This is the first time I have played Dragon Age (except for a couple hours in the first one) and I am playing a DW Rogue on Nightmare, because I am nuts (and also, not coincidentally, a Dark Souls fan).

 

I have been all over the map when it comes to my Rogue. I was unhappy with my choice at first, because it just seemed like a glass cannon without the cannon, but after picking up a useful dagger that I could actually wield (another topic), I started feeling better about my choice.

 

THEN I had to fight Alexius, and man, that boss fight gave me absolute fits. I think part of the problem is that I still haven't quite figured out how to use Blackwell yet, which is also another topic, but my winning solution ended up being something like this:

 

1. Position Varric behind a pillar on the left.

2. Position Dorian behind a pillar on the right.

3. Pump Alexius full of lead (so to speak).

 

That strategy fell apart during the two Rift sequences, but that is where my Rogue really shined. He was a bit of a Gopher, which is not particularly heroic, but by using Evade and Stealth, he was able to wander the battlefield and help out in trouble spots where needed, including the occasional Revive. He was instrumental in taking out the Terror, which was making powder out of my ranged guys.

 

But then it went back to Alexius and it was *plink* *plink* with Ranged until I whittled him down. Whenever I tried to use my Rogue on him, I inevitably got pummeled with damage. I had a really hard time with the timing of the stealth, evade and damage. I'm not saying no one else could do it. I'm just sayin' I couldn't quite get the timing right, and with only 8 potions, Nightmare mode and a long battle, I didn't risk it after trying and failing several times before.

 

So I dunno ... outside of that boss battle, I am pretty happy with my DW Rogue, but in this particular fight, I didn't feel like he was a hero. More like a gifted intern. I am curious to see how the rest plays out. I'm sticking with him.

[Selea]

Coming up with special strategies to 'knockdown-lock' him as melee is great I guess, but I never said there weren't ways for melee to make this fight work.  

 

It's not a "special strategy". It is normal gameplay of a S&S build as Shield Bash, Payback Strike on taunted enemies and Lunge & Slash from the back all cause knockdown. Given their low CD you can naturally (without doing anything special) lock Alexius to the ground for al the fight.

The more I talk to you and the more I understand that you obviously are a beginner at the game. You yet don't know all the skills of the various classes, nor how they play and yet you pretend to judge what's "friendly" and what's not. I'm sorry to say it but doing so is a pretentious attitude you have. You are simply in no position yet to form an objective judgement on the matter.

[szemyq]

It's not a "special strategy". It is normal gameplay of a S&S build as Shield Bash, Payback Strike on taunted enemies and Lunge & Slash from the back all cause knockdown. Given their low CD you can naturally (without doing anything special) lock Alexius to the ground for al the fight.
The more I talk to you and the more I understand that you obviously are a beginner at the game. You yet don't know all the skills of the various classes, nor how they play and yet you pretend to judge what's "friendly" and what's not. I'm sorry to say it but doing so is a pretentious attitude you have. You are simply in no position yet to form an objective judgement on the matter.

Wow you point your finger and spread half-true(payback strike) or simply wrong(lunge and slash) information. Payback strike does not cause a knockdown if you havent taken damage during the last 5 seconds and lunge and slash does not cause knockdown under any circumstances. At least in nightmare difficulty. Honestly dont know if this changes in lower difficulties. So maybe get your facts right before you pretend to be mister know it all.

[Gigamantis]

It's not a "special strategy". It is normal gameplay of a S&S build as Shield Bash, Payback Strike on taunted enemies and Lunge & Slash from the back all cause knockdown. Given their low CD you can naturally (without doing anything special) lock Alexius to the ground for al the fight.

The more I talk to you and the more I understand that you obviously are a beginner at the game. You yet don't know all the skills of the various classes, nor how they play and yet you pretend to judge what's "friendly" and what's not. I'm sorry to say it but doing so is a pretentious attitude you have. You are simply in no position yet to form an objective judgement on the matter.

If you're talking about a warrior none of those abilities would land before Alexius barriers and ports away.  You would have to open with Grappling Chain, and Grappling Chain plus going straight for Shield Bash on a tank isn't a usual setup.  You don't really have a ton of skill points early on when you face Alexius and you're wasting them in the Battlemaster tree and going for Shield Bash while likely missing important passives. 

 

I don't think you've thought out the knockdown-lock strategy very well at all. 

[Selea]

Wow you point your finger and spread half-true(payback strike) or simply wrong(lunge and slash) information. Payback strike does not cause a knockdown if you havent taken damage during the last 5 seconds and lunge and slash does not cause knockdown under any circumstances. At least in nightmare difficulty. Honestly dont know if this changes in lower difficulties. So maybe get your facts right before you pretend to be mister know it all.

LOL.

Payback strike causes a knockback if you have taken damage in the prior 5 secs OR to taunted enemies (so practically on everything because a pre-skyhold S&S build usually always uses Warcry). FFs, read the tooltip description or either ****** play the game at last once instead of pretending you did.
And Lunge and Slash causes a knockback on taunted enemies if taken from the back (albeit this is not written in the tooltip). I always play on nightmare. Given the above with PS it doesn't surprise me you didn't notice, since if you didn't either notice that PS causes a knockdown on taunted enemies (how the hell can you not see it????) you are really blind

Seriously before accusing me of spreading false information either read the tooltips (it's written plainly at last on PS) or play the game a little more. I skipped on the "taunted" part because we were talking about a S&S build pre-skyhold so in 99% of the cases you taunt Alexius (or you can do to knock him down reliably).

[Selea]

If you're talking about a warrior none of those abilities would land before Alexius barriers and ports away.  

Knockdowns works also on enemies with barriers up and he doesn't teleport immediately. You have all the time to stunlock him without problems.

Do you want me to post a video ffs? It's not so difficult for you to try it before insisting something is perfectly easy to do is not possible.

[Gigamantis]

Knockdowns works also on enemies with barriers up and he doesn't teleport immediately. You have all the time to stunlock him without problems.

Do you want me to post a video ffs? It's not so difficult for you to try it before insisting something is perfectly easy to do is not possible.

I've already fought Alexius and already tried meleeing him.  He barriers and ports when you get into melee range if he sees you, nevermind actually landing an attack.  Beyond that no one goes straight for shield bash on a tank and ignores the 50% ranged damage reduction passive.

 

You haven't thought this out at all and I'm starting to doubt you've even fought Alexius. 

[Selea]

I've already fought Alexius and already tried meleeing him.  He barriers and ports when you get into melee range if he sees you, nevermind actually landing an attack.  Beyond that no one goes straight for shield bash on a tank and ignores the 50% ranged damage reduction passive.

 

Are you serious now? When you go for Alexius you are at least level 5 and that means minimum 6 skill points to spend (with 2 already invested in Payback Strike and Challenge). Turn the Bolt just takes 1 skill point as Payback Strike is free (moreover, as I said, you don't either need to use Shield Bash to knock him down as you can use Payback Strike on a taunted enemy to do the same and, guess what, you have both Challenge and Payback Strike for free on a S&S build in the beginning of the game). Do you have a problem with math or what?

And as for Alexius he doesn't teleport immediately by approaching, this is blatantly false and provably so even by watching a simple video on youtube of the fight. He teleports when he gets damaged (or at most randomly when one approaches), NOT all the times one comes close. If you have more than ample time to come close in at last 1/3 of the cases and knock him down either by payback strike or shield bash.
 

You haven't thought this out at all and I'm starting to doubt you've even fought Alexius. 

 

Yes, sure. From not either knowing about skill positioning or effects on the various classes to insisting clearly attestable lies, I don't either know at this point if you are just a troll or someone that wants to be right even in front of evidence of the contrary.

[Gigamantis]

Are you serious now? When you go for Alexius you are at least level 5 and that means minimum 6 skill points to spend (with 2 already invested in Payback Strike and Challenge). The ranged damage just takes 1 skill point as Payback Strike is free (moreover, as I said, you don't either need to use Shield Bash to knock him down as you can use Payback Strike on a taunted enemy to do the same and, guess what, you have both Challenge and Payback Strike for free on a S&S build in the beginning of the game). Do you have a problem with math or what?

And as for Alexius he doesn't teleport immediately by approaching, this is blatantly false and provably so even by watching a simple video on youtube of the fight. He teleports when he gets damaged (or at most randomly when one approaches), NOT all the times one comes close. If you have more than ample time to come close in at last 1/3 of the cases and knock him down either by payback strike or shield bash.
 

Yes, sure. From not either knowing about skill positioning or effects on the various classes to insisting clearly attestable lies, I don't either know at this point if you are just a troll or someone that wants to be right even in front of evidence of the contrary.

So, you can stun lock him permanently with just Payback Strike?  Seriously?  And as a Tank you want both taunt skills out of Vanguard, Bull Rush, the entire right side of the SnS tree and the anti-flanking skill in the SnS tree, and even after all of that there's a lot of way more useful stuff in Vanguard you could get before you'd even think about something like Shield Bash. 

 

Also, I know he teleports when approached, and maybe he does only do it some of the time, but that's not really a great point because do you know in what circumstance you can guarantee he never does it?  By never meleeing him.  The "I only fight back or defend myself against melee" dynamic for a boss is a stupid one, and I'm surprised you so vehemently defend it. 

[Selea]

So, you can stun lock him permanently with just Payback Strike?  Seriously?  

 

 

OMG. Naturally not. We were talking there simply about knocking him down, not stunlocking. It's obvious you need both but you have the skill points to do so (again).
 

And as a Tank you want both taunt skills out of Vanguard, Bull Rush, the entire right side of the SnS tree and the anti-flanking skill in the SnS tree, and even after all of that there's a lot of way more useful stuff in Vanguard you could get before you'd even think about something like Shield Bash. 

 

What part of "you can" don't you understand? It's obvious that you can go other directions, but going for the S&S tree first before other trees is one of the most used if you want to go the DPS route (as an off-tank). It's still normal S&S gameplay, or are we now going to argue that if you don't take stealth on a rogue then it means that rogues cannot go in stealth?

 

 

Also, I know he teleports when approached, and maybe he does only do it some of the time, but that's not really a great point because do you know in what circumstance you can guarantee he never does it?  By never meleeing him.  The "I only fight back or defend myself against melee" dynamic for a boss is a stupid one, and I'm surprised you so vehemently defend it. 

OK, enough. It's futile. No matter if I've proven to you that you can actually beat him faster with a melee class than with a ranged one, you still continue to insist that it is a "melee unfriendly" boss. Whatever...

[Gigamantis]

OMG. Naturally not. We were talking there simply about knocking him down, not stunlocking. It's obvious you need both but you have the skill points to do so (again).
 

 

What part of "you can" don't you understand? It's obvious that you can go other directions, but going for the S&S tree first before other trees is one of the most used if you want to go the DPS route (as an off-tank). It's still normal S&S gameplay, or are we now going to argue that if you don't take stealth on a rogue then it means that rogues cannot go in stealth?

 

OK, enough. It's futile. No matter if I've proven to you that you can actually beat him faster with a melee class than with a ranged one, you still continue to insist that it is a "melee unfriendly" boss. Whatever...

"You can" do a lot of stuff if you build your character specifically to do it, but who goes the "DPS route" as a SnS warrior?  SnS is the tank archetype and you can only knockdown-lock Alexius if you build him stupidly.  Also, obviously this hasn't been tested, but I doubt you could even maintain the Stamina you need to knockdown-lock him permanently by spamming Payback Strike, Lunge Attack and Shield Bash. 

 

Beyond that, you just keep completely ignoring the actual issue, and it isn't how fast Alexius dies in ideal circumstances for a melee Rogue; which also likely wouldn't have the Stamina to Knockdown lock him permanently.  It's about Alexius being designed to NOT FIGHT BACK AGAINST RANGED CHARACTERS.  Why does it matter if it takes a few more seconds to kill him if he just can't or won't defend himself for the entire fight?

[szemyq]

LOL.
Payback strike causes a knockback if you have taken damage in the prior 5 secs OR to taunted enemies (so practically on everything because a pre-skyhold S&S build usually always uses Warcry). FFs, read the tooltip description or either ****** play the game at last once instead of pretending you did.

It does not cause a knockdown if you havent taken damage even if the target is taunted. And since you pretend to keep the target in a knocked down state i wonder where this damage comes from. Anyway i have seen you arguing in various threads and you are by far the most unpolite person in this forum, so i am not gonna waste my time on you. Believe what you want to believe and spread whatever you feel the need to. Honestly i dont care at all.

[Selea]

It does not cause a knockdown if you havent taken damage even if the target is taunted.

Ok, it does not. The tooltip is wrong and my game (and others of people in twitch.tv) is bugged.

Want to make a bet? Let's do a video. Taunt a group of enemies with Warcry and use Payback Strike on them. If you knock them down you give me 1000 dollars, elsewhere I give you the same sum to you. Deal?

Please say yes so I can buy myself a new PC.

 

And since you pretend to keep the target in a knocked down state i wonder where this damage comes from.

 

 

Because both Payback Strike and Shield Bash do not cause damage, isn't it? I guess the 200% (400% if you were previously wounded) and 300% WD respectively are two other wrong tooltips and a bugged game on my (and others) part.

Want to make another bet? Let's do a video and see if when you attack a group of enemies using Shield Bash or Payback Strike on them some red numbers appear (to evidence damage done);. If they do, then you give me 1000 dollars, elsewhere I give the same sum to you. Deal?

Please say yes, so I can buy myself a super new PC.

EDIT: Hmmm, but now that I read what you said better you wanted to insist here that if you don't take damage then you don't knockdown with Payback Strike. Oh well, there it goes away the super PC bet. The normal new PC bet however still remains if you want to take it. Since you insist so vehemently that PS doesn't work as a knockdown if you aren't damaged let's make the deal. I wait eagerly for that, actually.
 

Anyway i have seen you arguing in various threads and you are by far the most unpolite person in this forum, so i am not gonna waste my time on you. 

 

 

You are right, I'm not polite because I correct people that say wrong things (as you). You always are when you do so, I've learned it too well in these past years. The only way to remain "polite" to people as you is to always pretend they are right (or pretend it's a matter of opinion) even when they say idiocies. Elsewhere it is the same as if you attack them personally given their ego.
 

Believe what you want to believe and spread whatever you feel the need to. Honestly i dont care at all. 

 

 

Because I would have to believe your words instead, even when the tooltips and the actual game prove otherwise? As for you "caring" or not: facts don't mind minimally if you care about them or not, just so you know.

[Navek]

 

 

Sevitan7, on 20 Nov 2014 - 4:53 PM, said:

 

Just wait until you die to bear when you are behind it even though it's clearly not hitting you. I swear, bears in this game even put the Skyrim bears to shame, they come with 360 aoe attacks of death.

 

 

1. It kinda makes perfect sense to me i mean the Bears of Thedas have perk named after them Bear Mauls the Wolves.

2. This is my just in my experience so feel free to weigh in, I have always had to fight a single bear never 2 or 3 just 1.

3. Also the bear has 3 basic attace sequences:

 

   A. Single front bite attack- that can be parried from even while behind the bear. 

   B. Claw Swipe- that can come from either left or right paws. Seems to have a 180*degree attack radius so it easily hit you if you arent cleanly behind it. Can also be parried.

   C. 360 Bearhug- It raises on his hindlegs (this is your tell to know the GTFO) usually followed by short Majestic Roar then comes down hit all targets in melee targets in proximity. Note cannot be Parried.(Tested) I have tried.

 

Hope this Helps.

 

Just my 2 Cents: Feel free to ignore

 

I feel that most are not bad rogues they just don't take the time to analyze the enemy or make mental notes of deadly opponents. Rogues are supposed to subtle, skillful, have a keen eyes and steady hand (for shooting or stabbing). 

 

I would honestly like to know many people played thru normal, hard, nightmare, and didnt just go normal to nightmare. I mean seriously the Tarot Card for Nightmare is Literally Duncan dead, behead and skewered with swords. So.......... yeah............ Nightmare Mode......... it works.

 

Know your enemy and know yourself and you can fight a hundred battles without disaster. -Sun Tzu

[teks]

Nightmare mode it works...until you hit the second phase of the game, and complete the dwarf tomb for the tier 3 masterwork dual dagger before you even picked a speciality. Why did they bother level capping loot when we can craft this?