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Melee rogue is awful, especially on nightmare.


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#76
Gothfather

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I am playing a Rogue on Nightmare and it is a nightmare. A nightmare of micromanaging the battle, which is what i want in a supremely hard difficulty setting. I switched to archer from DW because I found that while DW was very effective when used as an always in motion fighter it was a level of micromanagement that was too high for me. I plan to switch down to Hard difficulty once I "beat the game" as I feel that will be my default setting.

 

It has been experience (limited experience as the game is just out) that not all difficulty levels are equal with both playstyles. Tactical seems to be a MUST for nightmare and a chore for casual. Action mode seems to be the go to mode for the game on the lower difficulties because it is fast and the game isn't very punishing damage wise and the tac cam just slows the game down.

 

I like that difficulty level actually require different tactics. I know that rogues are often used as the "mindless" dps roll but on harder difficulties they just can't be mindless. They require as much if not more attention to detail then tanks. I applaud Bioware for putting mechanics that require DPS to be tactical to survive.

 

My archer rogue requires mobility and tactics but it is less demanding than the DW rogue. Moving my ranged characters to safetly is easier so on nightmare i took the easy way out as its already micromanagement intensive i wanted to reduce the work load on myself.

 

I think is it a sign of success that nightmare is so demanding on the player as far as I can tell DW rogue isn't "broken" its just more demanding than people expected on nightmare.


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#77
Anelyn77

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Well I am level 12, and went full into the 1st tree (Assassination? not in game so can't check exact name) with flank & rest of stuff, with the default stealth from subterfuge(?) tree and 1 point into the threat reduction (might grab the stink / smoke bomb as well at a point).

 

I don't tank damage or build for tanking it, I just avoid it by timing my attacks and picking targets. The damage is insane if you take the time to craft & upgrade your items (which implies of course farming for mats that you need) I have a pair of crafted double edged daggers crafted, with crafted upgrades (haven't unlocked runes yet, too much fun doing random stuff than advancing the main story line, last one was siding with templars and beating the end boss there). I also use the venom tonic which deals a bunch of damage to my target (if it's not immune to poison of course). Add the debuff from another grenade (+25% dmg taken by enemies for duration) and another dmg boost for taunted enemies (from cas) - for those who can be taunted ofc, and with my multipliers pretty much any enemy within my level range, boss or elite, that gets to 50% hp, can be 1 shot by my rogue (not dragons, haven't fought one yet, but looking forward to after I get more fire resistance hehe).

 

Also I don't know if you guys try to maximize your combos, but that's quite important as it helps you dispatch key targets faster (ie: I will freeze 1 enemy with Viviene then shatter it with Sara, and knockdown / stun another enemy with Cas for my DW rogue to detonate it with her precision abilities).

 

IMHO - the highest challenge to a DW rogue is to know when to go in, and when to get out. My group literally has 2 burst rogues (DW rogue inq and Sara archer) and 2 utility (viviene and cas). That doesn't mean Viv or Cas can't put the hurt, Cas with her shield bash / payback can do some crazy stuff, same with Viv mind blast detonator, but mainly their resources are used for control / dispel (and this can be used offensively as well, like dispelling enemy buffs - like barriers for example) / and setting up for hard hitting rogues (high crit chances / crit damage, base damage etc).

 

Also is very important how you initiate fights. Mobs will usually attack / aggro the closest character if they are not attacked, so sending the tank forward while you position your mage / archer and get a stealthed DW in position will give better results (so that after the tank has caught attention and either shield wall if you need guard, or aoe taunt etc, you can start combo / control and drop 1-2 targets instantly).


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#78
StingingVelvet

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Well I am level 12, and went full into the 1st tree (Assassination? not in game so can't check exact name) with flank & rest of stuff, with the default stealth from subterfuge(?) tree and 1 point into the threat reduction (might grab the stink / smoke bomb as well at a point).

 

Not saying you did anything wrong, but I have found the stealth tree backstab to be the best DW Rogue ability so far. It not only hits harder but also knocks down and sunders armor. It's a great way to start a fight, sneaking in and stealth backstabbing the biggest opponent.


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#79
Navasha

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Yeah, I dumped my 20 hour playthrough of a rogue dual wielder.   After a while you are just too fragile.    At first I thought it was cool to be able to stealth and always disrupt rifts easily, but it soon became apparent that just being able to shed aggro stops working once the enemies start picking up AoE attacks.

 

My biggest issue with the rogue was the game not finding the target.    Would go to activate twin strikes and my character would walk around for 3 or 4 seconds trying to find a place to strike.   


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#80
skokie29

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Sleep spell is a must. AoE, puts group to sleep and after upgrade, next attack is auto crit. 



#81
Giantdeathrobot

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You do have to micromanage them an awful lot. I'm pretty sure DW rogues have the highest damage potential, but they are incredibly fragile, one misstep means you need to use a potion. By contrast, archers only do slightly less damage, but are basically fire and forget.

 

I haven't played as one yet, but using Cole I find that I need to keep an eye on him at all times, or he gets smacked for half his health bar. But if I use abilities, evasion and stealth, I can avoid the vast majority of the damage, and using synergies means he deals tons of damage. Freeze someone with Vivienne, then Twin Fangs for massive damage.

 

That said, Tempest seems really the best spec for dual wielders, since it has both survivability and damage boosts. Assassin seems an OK spec but by and large inferior to it.

 

I also haven't found any dual blade daggers yet, where did you folks get some?



#82
GhoXen

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Nearly all large melee enemies have melee-range AoE that will hit their flank/back. You can dodge out of them if you pay attention. E.g. bear slam, bruiser triple direction attack, rage demon flame ability.



#83
Sevitan7

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Nearly all large melee enemies have melee-range AoE that will hit their flank/back. You can dodge out of them if you pay attention. E.g. bear slam, bruiser triple direction attack, rage demon flame ability.

 

That's true enough, but it does require one to get evade, and that's a pretty steep requirement just so that you can survive in melee against those types on enemies. Especially since other classes aren't forced to get those quasi action skills to function.

 

Truth be told, I'm not sure this even works as intended, a lot of hitboxes in the game are just bad and all over the place. Mighty blow has a hidden hitbox, but it has similar 360 properties to that of large enemies.

 

I can't tell if this is by design to compensate for all the movement, a mess up, or just laziness and everyone gets the same screwy 360 hitbox for aoe attacks.



#84
Cavemandiary

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Not going to pretend to be an expert (after less than a week, who really is?) Or claim that dw rogue is fine, But i do have a few tips for dominating hard difficulty:

1) get an aoe dagger in your mainhand, it makes your animation, including the offhand even if it is a stabbing dagger, a larger aoe and increased gapclosing and accuracy. Yes, it is worth the loss of (10-15%) mainhand dps.

2) masterwork material (fadetouched)later can have a chance to proc walking fortress and fadecloak, both making you immune to dmg for several seconds. Procs extremely easy with upgraded spinning blades and throwing blades, especially with #3

3) get pull of the abyss with solas. You will thank me when you do.

#85
DrekorSilverfang

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But this is patently false. Just roll an archer.

 

Archers have pretty ****** terrible dps, they are barely above a S&S warrior. Only reason to bring an archer is because you REALLY REALLY can't be bothered to come back later to unlock that door.

 

Have your tank use upgraded bodyguard, you should also be in range to get the barrier that goes on the tank. You can also manually control your companions to chain CC properly.



#86
WillieStyle

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That's true enough, but it does require one to get evade, and that's a pretty steep requirement just so that you can survive in melee against those types on enemies. Especially since other classes aren't forced to get those quasi action skills to function.

 

Melee point-plank AoE abilities have very short range.  I don't have evade and I avoid them easily now (took some getting used to).  Just take two steps back when the bear rears back on its hind legs.  Wait a beat, and then step back in and keep on killing.



#87
staindgrey

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I think the fault of the dagger rogue is that the Assassin specialization completely outclasses Double Dagger (and thus makes DD obsolete), but choosing Assassin restricts you from getting the incredibly beneficial Tempest specialization.

 

If I could replace Double Dagger with Assassin, then specialize in Tempest, I could make a dagger rogue pretty damn awesome.



#88
Ashevajak

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I've not given Nightmare a go yet, but I definitely agree with a lot of the comments in this thread.  In addition to the AoE warrior issues, I'm also finding that quite a few enemy characters can see through stealth, at least if you do it close enough to them.  Yes, I could take the upgrade which allows attacks to go through my rogue, but given I already purchased two defensive abilities to unlock Shadow Strike, getting yet another one does seem a bit...excessive. 

And still doesn't help with the AoE thing.

 

Also, what the hell is up with bears in Thedas?  Whoever said they were worse than Skyrim bears isn't joking.  Apart from a giant, they've been my toughest enemy so far, and by a significant amount.  Who cares about demons invading, I'm more worried about the coming Bear Revolution, when they will rise up and overthrow the humanoid empires.


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#89
Commander Michael

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Archers have pretty ****** terrible dps, they are barely above a S&S warrior. Only reason to bring an archer is because you REALLY REALLY can't be bothered to come back later to unlock that door.

 

Have your tank use upgraded bodyguard, you should also be in range to get the barrier that goes on the tank. You can also manually control your companions to chain CC properly.

 

Archers have INSANE dps. Have you tried Stealth + Overdraw? I got the heavy hitter achievement at level 4 with Varric with that combo. Currently my setup on Nightmare + FF is 2 archers, 1 mage and 1 tank. It's a cakewalk most of the time. And they also NEVER die because of stealth. 



#90
Gel214th

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Melee point-plank AoE abilities have very short range.  I don't have evade and I avoid them easily now (took some getting used to).  Just take two steps back when the bear rears back on its hind legs.  Wait a beat, and then step back in and keep on killing.

 

How does this help the rest of your party, or if you are not controlling the Dual Wield Rogue? What happens to them?



#91
WillieStyle

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How does this help the rest of your party, or if you are not controlling the Dual Wield Rogue? What happens to them?

 

I'm not sure I understand the question.  Your tank should be able to eat the AoE.  Non-melee characters shouldn't be in range in the first place.  I don't see the problem.  When fighting bears or Dark Spawn/Barbarians with giant axes, make sure to control your rogue.  I mean, why wouldn't you want to control your character?  It's YOUR character.



#92
full_metal_zombie

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Not sure if I have the Easy to Miss skill yet but I do have Evade (The jump/dodge one) and it is pretty bad. Since going by the description it either moves you away or towards the action based on some sort of logic. Well whenever I try to use it to dodge out of the aoe moves it just rolls me into the mob basically keeping me in place. (If it even goes off in time in the first place...)


Evade is ridiculously good. I don't know how you have problems with it, but this seems to be a L2P situation. You do know that when you use the ability, you can control the direction you roll, right?

It helps escape mobs that wanna get up in your face as an archer, and dodge big hits, like a dragon fireball or horrors popping up out of the ground. I wouldn't play a rogue without it.

#93
Shelled

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Melee rogue is a lot more viable after I dropped varric. With two mages instead of just 1 you can cast barrier twice which helps way more than anything varric can do. I can also cast two freezing spells for stunlock or I can cast two fears, mitigating a lot of damage if there are multiple enemies.

If you go melee rogue dropping varric is probably the first thing you should do. Having 2 mages and 1 tank is definitely the way to go if you stay as melee rogue.

Its still a lot of micro-managing though with melee rogue.


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#94
Sevitan7

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Melee point-plank AoE abilities have very short range.  I don't have evade and I avoid them easily now (took some getting used to).  Just take two steps back when the bear rears back on its hind legs.  Wait a beat, and then step back in and keep on killing.

 

While they have short range, they also come with phantom 360 aoes that you can't always avoid depending on the angle. The attacks are fast enough that you may be stuck in an animation when it comes (especially true for two hand warriors) and won't have enough time to respond. Especially since there is a lag before you press a button to move and actually move.

 

In Origins and 2 the movement was far more responsive. It was quite easy to make precise movement in order to hit a target with Cone of Cold in Origins without your melee or to land Mighty Blow without killing your melee teammates in 2. Unless my Rogue is behind a dragon or some demon, I don't expect him to be taking unpreventable damage just for being behind their target. Positioning should matter and we shouldn't be penalized by the proximity of our characters to their target like this.

 

This is all compounded by the fact sometimes you have to do this for multiple characters (I like to run a 3 melee party) and that sometimes you face multiples of those enemies at once (nothing like multiple enforces swinging their clubs to create phantom fields of deadly invisible aoe). One tank and 3 ranged set up, especially with 2 mages, shouldn't be so much superior to running multiple melee characters.

 

What's worse, pretty much every enemy of this sort I have encountered comes with with CC immunity. This kind of stuff was reserved for large bosses or very powerful enemies before, and not random uncommon, yet numerous, enemies. Combined with the fact that they have so much more hp than regular enemies they just end up being a potion sink or gear check (especially in a melee heavy party where damage is often unavoidable) since you literally can't do anything to them but attempt to damage race. Yea, I'm up to a point where during the lifetime of a single barrier I can burst down these enemies now, but that's an accomplishment solely of my gear and not tactics.

 

And the fact is, your tactics against those kind of enemies are heavily limited in a melee heavy party. It's almost as those CC immune 360 aoe enemies are designed in mind of you playing with the quasi-action elements since the CRPG mechanism of attack and defense is gone in Inquisition (I guess they wanted to make this more like an arpg like Skyrim or Dark Souls). Except the quasi-action elements take wasted talents, a slot on the skill bar, and downtime that does not affect ranged classes. Archer Rogues and Mages don't care, because they don't lose time on target that you spend manually dodging invisible aoes for melee, manually or through abilities. Mages can alleviate this problem with barriers for your melee. Guard seems to scale poorly, especially compared to barrier, that it becomes useless later in the game too. As if needed more reasons to take a Mage.

 

Overall, I wish I could get an answer from Bioware if these enemies were designed to work like these (i.e. 360 aoe dealing cc immune damage sponges) or if the issue is messy hitboxes that aren't supposed to have 360 range. I'm hope it's the latter, since Mighty Blow has similar bizarre hitbox properties as those aoe melee attacks from the cc immune mobs. And if it is supposed to work that way, well that's a pretty bad design decision that only hurts melee characters and punishes player choices.

 

If they wanted to make this more like an action game, then they shouldn't have made such horrid hitboxes and let you roll/evade/fade/block/parry/whatever step from the start without a talent. Skyrim or Dark Souls don't force you to level up multiple times just so that you can roll or block.



#95
Sevitan7

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Having 2 mages and 1 tank is definitely the way to go if you stay as melee rogue.

 

Ain't that the truth. 2 Mages make the game so much easier it's ridiculous. Being able to cast barrier multiple times is the best solution we currently have to melee issues, but it sure isn't fun for party composition variety.



#96
Bayonet Hipshot

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Melee rogue are challenging until you unlock Tempest. After which you become the God of Rogues. 



#97
brazen_nl

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Evade is ridiculously good. I don't know how you have problems with it, but this seems to be a L2P situation. You do know that when you use the ability, you can control the direction you roll, right?

 

Yeah, that was kind of iffy for me. More often than not, there is no arrow and it it just does a salto in place. I mean, we're talking open field combat here, nothing to restrict my movement. Maybe it's something else that I'm missing?



#98
yusupov

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what is 'tempest spec'? i dont get thse terms. as someone mentioned above anyone care to share a skilltree path?



#99
brazen_nl

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what is 'tempest spec'? i dont get thse terms. as someone mentioned above anyone care to share a skilltree path?

 

Click the links in the first post. For Tempest, you want to check out the Rogue.

 

http://forum.bioware...specialization/



#100
Shelled

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I think assassin is better, especially when you get 9 seconds of nothing but pure critical hits when in stealth, might be better than tempest. You also get knockout bomb which seems extremely important in nightmare.

You also get hidden blades which you can use with cloak of shadows / so thats 6 hits at 300% extra damage which are also critical hits.

Tempest only has 2 things that seem good, slow time and thousand cuts. Nothing that helps your party in terms of survival though. Flask of frost seems like a death sentence for your rogue.