733 réponses à ce sujet

[OG Swift]

Use tac cam to move them away, or get better aggro management. Turn off leaping shot in tactics menu
I know the AI is bad, but there are things we can do to minimize the damage

 

Yes, I can do that. The point is I didn't really have to do that before. I remember especially DA:O AI where my Leliana DW rogue was even smart enough to use Stealth and appear behind squishies back and taking him down with one or two flank attacks.

 

You cannot choose who should your AI focus or how should they behave - you can only pick which skills they should use first or which they should not use at all. And when use healing potion, amazing.

 

Current DW rogue uses stealth as well but instead of acting like Leliana DA:O they follow tank and attack from the first side available gettin cleaved down immediately.

 

I really can use tac screen and handle all 4 party members but it not the fun anymore. It is annoying.

[LiquidLyrium]

I dunno about nightmare difficulty, but I have found dual-wielding rogue to be a LOT less fragile/frustrating after crafting a dagger that generates guard. It makes me feel tanky and it lends itself to my "stab everything in sight" play style.

[Seneva]

DW Rogue against a Dragon.

 

I stopped bothering bringing a rogue to a dragonfight. 5 seconds into the fight and the rogue drops dead. Either from its breath attack or a tailswipe or a legkick. Pointless.

[Magma_Axis]

DW Rogue against a Dragon.
 
I stopped bothering bringing a rogue to a dragonfight. 5 seconds into the fight and the rogue drops dead. Either from its breath attack or a tailswipe or a legkick. Pointless.

Ironically, DW Rogue is the fastest class to solo a dragon. You need to control it directly though

[ama8oi]

If only evade worked like dark souls ....dual dagger rogue would be frecking amazing lol

[ama8oi]

I chose not to use dual dagger rogue only cause i like to feel like my companions have a mind of their own even on nightmare, i dont use tac cam >_< i just feel like controlling them in tac cam makes me have less time playing my own character lol and cassandra is op as a tank plus having 2 spirit mages and me being an archer makes **** too easy to kill haha

[Cyberpunk]

???

 

Every class has a "your doing it wrong" restriction.

 

If you saw someone complain that his Mage keeps on dying because he goes into melee witha Dagger and is not casting any spells..... would you agree that the Mage class needs a buff?? or you would just tell him that he is doing it wrong??

 

If you saw a Warrior using only a knife and no armor because he want to pretend that he is Tarzan........would you agree that the Warrior class needs a buff?? or you would just tell him that he is doing it wrong??

 

Sadly..... too many people are clueless when it comes to playing a Rogue.

 

Many decades ago many were clueless about playing a Rogue in D&D (called a Thief at the time).

 

They tried to make it easier on players by making various kits like the Swashbuckler allowing players to actually play their Rogue as if it was a Fighter class.

 

Then later on 3rd Edition made it so that you could play the Rogue as a Fighter even more by removing the need to hide in shadow to make a backstab attack. They replaced backstab for sneak attack so that all the Rogue needed to do now was flank the ennemy. 

 

But in the long run..... it did not teach players how to play a Rogue

 

All it did was re-enforce players into playing the Rogue like another Fighter class.

 

Heck in NeverWinter Night..... I was able to make what I called the Super Rogue. 

Essentially a Strenght based Rogue dual wielding Bastard swords.

 

Sadly players clueless about how to play a Rogue seems to be an eternal problem.

 

We had that problem in D&D many decades ago.

We had that problem in AD&D.

We had that problem in Bladur's Gate/Icewind Dale.

We had that problem in NWN.

We had that problem in DDO.

We had that problem in LotRO.

 

And now.... we have the same problem with DA;I.

How do you play rogue? 

[Selea]

How do you play rogue? 

You take targets of opportunity and against strong enemies that have AOE attacks you hit at the right moment (for example you wait for the target to be stunned, paralyzed, frozen, asleep, knocked down etc. ect. and then do a spike attack for a lot of damage, many times even killing it immediately) and don't stand in melee range all the time hitting the same enemy over and over, especially if that enemy has AOE skills. If you want to do that the only way is equipping +guard items. However in that way the rogue becomes another fighter with strong dps skills.

Strangely enough enemy AI DW rogues do this (just watch the various enemy assassins and how they play), while AI for party members don't. Same happens for ranged enemies AI that try to distance themselves while ranged party members never do it (you need to give them skills to do so).

[Jester]

I love how 90% of players complain that melee rogue is unplayable, weak and dies immediately, and there's 10% in another thread, complaining that rogues are even more broken than Knight Enchanters.

Melee rogue isn't (and never was) for everybody folks. In all Dragon Age games so far it's the hardest class to play, and at the same time an insanely strong one if you know how to do it. I managed to sucessfully play DW rogue only in DA2 (where it was probably the easiest) and it was by far the strongest class I have played in that game. 

 

Strangely enough enemy AI DW rogues do this (just watch the various enemy assassins and how they play), while AI for party members don't. Same happens for ranged enemies AI that try to distance themselves while ranged party members never do it (you need to give them skills to do so).

Yeah, enemy rogue AI seems to be pretty sophisticated in Inquisition. 

[Duelist]

You take targets of opportunity and against strong enemies that have AOE attacks you hit at the right moment (for example you wait for the target to be stunned, paralyzed, frozen, asleep, knocked down etc. ect. and then do a spike attack for a lot of damage, many times even killing it immediately) and don't stand in melee range all the time hitting the same enemy over and over, especially if that enemy has AOE skills. If you want to do that the only way is equipping +guard items. However in that way the rogue becomes another fighter with strong dps skills.

Strangely enough enemy AI DW rogues do this (just watch the various enemy assassins and how they play), while AI for party members don't. Same happens for ranged enemies AI that try to distance themselves while ranged party members never do it (you need to give them skills to do so).

Solid advice, adding to this:

Take into consideration specializations.

In addition to being able to do big spike damage, an Assassin can also set up combos from stealth with Knockout Bomb or set up their own kill with Mark of Death.

Artificers are great for protecting your squishy mages either by springing enemies attacking them with a Spike Trap, pulling them away with upgraded Fallback Plan or turning any space that opens up between your ranged and melee fighters into a minefield.

And Tempest is just comically OP.

[Matth85]

I assume that everybody who "fails" at playing a rogue follows a particular mindset. "This is a dps class! I do dps! let's go!"-mindset. That is inefficient above casual difficulty. I also assume those who "fail" also doesn't plan their build, or team. Basically, they play they don't play optimized, nor do they play on their classes strength. 

Let's break it down:

 

A rogue is:

 

not a tank.

not meant to take damage.

not meant to stand in the open

not meant to focus the tanks

not meant to be a hybrid between range and melee

 

A rogue is meant to:

 

Take down priority targets. (Ranger > Mages >>>>>>> Warrior w/o shield > Warrior with shield >> Maulers)

Position themself. You avoid damage, and gain, damage by stealthing. use it. You position yourself. 

 

If your playstyle consist of "I SEE **** LETS KILL LOLOLO", you are picking the wrong class. Rogues build on strategy and priority. You are not the first to engage, nor are you going to be attacking constantly. You stealth, wait for your tank to poke the group and you pick your target. See 3 archers up there? Go behind one of them. Twin Fangs him. A few melee hit for good measure, and end in Deathblow. If possible, re-stealth (assassination specalization) and do the same for the next archer, then the third one. Let your party take care of that mauler. You have no business dealing with Guard when there are archers up.

 

Once you get the hang of the rogues playstyle, their damage is unmatched. Tempest popping fire flask when a boss is under 50%? Spam Deathblow for thousand upon thousand of damage. See a big dragon? Pop Deathmark, stealth, do youre combo and watch the dragon losing another 25k-70k damage. 

See a pesky enemy with a bit too much health? Death mark --> stealth --> poison weapon --> Twin fangs --> Deathblow --> Hidden Blades --> Watch him explode. 

Re-stealth and repeat.

 

My point: If you get hit, regular, as a rogue you are playing the wrong class. Warrior is your class, and even then you are playing wrong. If you are rushing into things with no mind of what target to choose, you are playing it wrong. If you favor lots of AoE and just smash your face into groups of enemies -- you are playing the wrong class. 

 

Rogue favors the quick, the decision-makers, the priority-based-people and the one living for High risk/High reward playstyle. it favors the min/maxer, the optimizer and the one looking for a challenge. As a rogue you rely on your instinct, and on your teams setup. Fail either, and you are dead. Get both right, and you will roll over the content on nightmare.

[Gel214th]

Ironically, DW Rogue is the fastest class to solo a dragon. You need to control it directly though

And that's just it.

 

The game demands that the class be played as though you are in a single player RPG to be effective.

 

The powers it uses have no place in a strategic, tactical RPG, and certainly not in an AI controlled party where there is no hope of the AI using them properly. 

 

If your playstyle consist of "I SEE **** LETS KILL LOLOLO", you are picking the wrong class. Rogues build on strategy and priority. You are not the first to engage, nor are you going to be attacking constantly. You stealth, wait for your tank to poke the group and you pick your target. See 3 archers up there? Go behind one of them. Twin Fangs him. A few melee hit for good measure, and end in Deathblow. If possible, re-stealth (assassination specalization) and do the same for the next archer, then the third one. Let your party take care of that mauler. You have no business dealing with Guard when there are archers up.

 

Yeah, no. *you* are not picking the wrong class, you control FOUR characters, one of which is the Inquisitor. You are supposed to be controlling FOUR characters, not one! You are supposed to be free to swap between them as you like, but the AI is supposed to either be guided by you (our lost Tactics screen) or fine to operate on its own. The AI cannot handle the playstyle of the DW Rogue. 

[Matth85]

Not quite. The game is not balanced around you multitasking. Even though the AI is bad, and our options limited, we adapt. With some fickle annoyances and bugs considered, it's not a problem to avoid switching character.

The rogue is not a bad class because the AI can't play it -- and if that is your problem, I suggest not having a dual wield AI  controlled rogue on your team. Just as I don't recommend having a Reaver warrior on AI control either. High risk/Reward playstyle are best left to players -- not AI. Just like it's always been in every sort of game since ever.

[Magma_Axis]

Not quite. The game is not balanced around you multitasking. Even though the AI is bad, and our options limited, we adapt. With some fickle annoyances and bugs considered, it's not a problem to avoid switching character.

The rogue is not a bad class because the AI can't play it -- and if that is your problem, I suggest not having a dual wield AI  controlled rogue on your team. Just as I don't recommend having a Reaver warrior on AI control either. High risk/Reward playstyle are best left to players -- not AI. Just like it's always been in every sort of game since ever.

Agree, the point of this thread is NOT to prove that AI controlled DW Rogue is awful, because they clearly are. But player controlled Rogue is whole different story.

If you make a thread titled " DW Rogue AI is awful, esp on Nightmare" then i would agree completely

[In Exile]

I assume that everybody who "fails" at playing a rogue follows a particular mindset. "This is a dps class! I do dps! let's go!"-mindset. That is inefficient above casual difficulty. I also assume those who "fail" also doesn't plan their build, or team. Basically, they play they don't play optimized, nor do they play on their classes strength. 

Let's break it down:

 

A rogue is:

 

not a tank.

not meant to take damage.

not meant to stand in the open

not meant to focus the tanks

not meant to be a hybrid between range and melee

 

A rogue is meant to:

 

Take down priority targets. (Ranger > Mages >>>>>>> Warrior w/o shield > Warrior with shield >> Maulers)

Position themself. You avoid damage, and gain, damage by stealthing. use it. You position yourself. 

 

If your playstyle consist of "I SEE **** LETS KILL LOLOLO", you are picking the wrong class. Rogues build on strategy and priority. You are not the first to engage, nor are you going to be attacking constantly. You stealth, wait for your tank to poke the group and you pick your target. See 3 archers up there? Go behind one of them. Twin Fangs him. A few melee hit for good measure, and end in Deathblow. If possible, re-stealth (assassination specalization) and do the same for the next archer, then the third one. Let your party take care of that mauler. You have no business dealing with Guard when there are archers up.

 

Once you get the hang of the rogues playstyle, their damage is unmatched. Tempest popping fire flask when a boss is under 50%? Spam Deathblow for thousand upon thousand of damage. See a big dragon? Pop Deathmark, stealth, do youre combo and watch the dragon losing another 25k-70k damage. 

See a pesky enemy with a bit too much health? Death mark --> stealth --> poison weapon --> Twin fangs --> Deathblow --> Hidden Blades --> Watch him explode. 

Re-stealth and repeat.

 

My point: If you get hit, regular, as a rogue you are playing the wrong class. Warrior is your class, and even then you are playing wrong. If you are rushing into things with no mind of what target to choose, you are playing it wrong. If you favor lots of AoE and just smash your face into groups of enemies -- you are playing the wrong class. 

 

Rogue favors the quick, the decision-makers, the priority-based-people and the one living for High risk/High reward playstyle. it favors the min/maxer, the optimizer and the one looking for a challenge. As a rogue you rely on your instinct, and on your teams setup. Fail either, and you are dead. Get both right, and you will roll over the content on nightmare.

 

Put another way, Rogue is an aggravating high-micromanagement class that, in a party-based game, generally has a huge opportunity cost, namely, controlling the rogue v. another class. 

[Zenthar Aseth]

Put another way, Rogue is an aggravating high-micromanagement class that, in a party-based game, generally has a huge opportunity cost, namely, controlling the rogue v. another class. 

You say aggravating, I say fun. I like, you know, actually playing my character, instead of AFKing and hitting a key every few minutes.

 

Also, it's pretty clear that DA:I was never really designed around controlling your whole party. The intent was that you play your character, and controlling other characters was/is just an option. The tacked on, poorly working tactical view is just one proof of that.

[Gel214th]

Also, it's pretty clear that DA:I was never really designed around controlling your whole party. The intent was that you play your character, and controlling other characters was/is just an option. The tacked on, poorly working tactical view is just one proof of that.

And I would say you are correct, and that is precisely what people are complaining about in this thread.

 

They don't like the action combat, basically. 

[Matth85]

Make no mistake, DAI is not a party-based-tactical-game. It's a hybrid between tactical party-game and action game. A mix between Mass Effect/DA2 and DA:O if you will. You are not meant to micromanage every single move of each of your team. The game is built that you can do that, and you can also ignore you team altogether. A mix between the 2 has proven the be the most efficient way of playing. A lä: Your team does it thing, you control your inquisitor 90% of the time, but you change over to use certain abilities at certain times. (Kiting, dispelling, setting up combos, 1-shotting ranged wisps, etc)

 

In the end, this is not a discussion whether the rogue is bad or not; it clearly isn't, it's a discussion whether the AI is bad -- which is a given and it's an act of beating a dead horse by mentioning it. The AI is horrible for a 2014(late 2014) game, and our control over tactics are limited.

[In Exile]

You say aggravating, I say fun. I like, you know, actually playing my character, instead of AFKing and hitting a key every few minutes.

Also, it's pretty clear that DA:I was never really designed around controlling your whole party. The intent was that you play your character, and controlling other characters was/is just an option. The tacked on, poorly working tactical view is just one proof of that.

I don't think there's anything wrong with micromanagement or micromanaging a class - I just don't think the rogue is worth the investment compared to another class or even the archer rogue build.

I'd be willing to accept that DAI was meant to be primarily solo with AI if it wasn't for the terribad AI that requires nonsense workarounds to be functional (like Cass -> follow Cass).

The group as a whole is more effective when you have the time to take your eyes away from your PC in pause without losing the rhythm of combat, which you can't do IMO with a rogue.

[ama8oi]

I think the problem with the rogue is that in the beginning the other classes can be "tanky" even the mage if you use barrier haha i just feel rogue is probably the only mmoish character in this game ..it actually takes time to love it and make it stronger lol

[Zenthar Aseth]

I don't think there's anything wrong with micromanagement or micromanaging a class - I just don't think the rogue is worth the investment compared to another class or even the archer rogue build.

I'd be willing to accept that DAI was meant to be primarily solo with AI if it wasn't for the terribad AI that requires nonsense workarounds to be functional (like Cass -> follow Cass).

The group as a whole is more effective when you have the time to take your eyes away from your PC in pause without losing the rhythm of combat, which you can't do IMO with a rogue.

Well, that's just your opinion, though. Many people disagree.

 

Fun is the primary concern. DAI is a single-player game. There are many, many ways to be effective in combat. And many ways to beat it on nightmare, even without copious minmaxing. People have beat the game with rogues on nightmare. That means they are effective enough. And Tempest deals the highest DPS in the game.

[Saresi]

I don't think there's anything wrong with micromanagement or micromanaging a class - I just don't think the rogue is worth the investment compared to another class or even the archer rogue build.

I'd be willing to accept that DAI was meant to be primarily solo with AI if it wasn't for the terribad AI that requires nonsense workarounds to be functional (like Cass -> follow Cass).

The group as a whole is more effective when you have the time to take your eyes away from your PC in pause without losing the rhythm of combat, which you can't do IMO with a rogue.

With a proper build Tank and the an high CC class (Riftmage, Necromage with Frost tree, any Rogue Specialisazion, a second tank ) on the player, you CAN win every single fight on your level even with brain dead AI.

Sorry, but invest in the tools at your disposal. The game is easy even on nightmare.

[Ryzaki]

DW Rogue against a Dragon.

 

I stopped bothering bringing a rogue to a dragonfight. 5 seconds into the fight and the rogue drops dead. Either from its breath attack or a tailswipe or a legkick. Pointless.

 

Eh I had plenty fun on my archer rogue in the dragon fight. He was the only one who wasn't taking too much damage. (then again to be fair that was probably more due to me playing him than anything. God the AI is so dumb.)

 

I move him out of range of the wing attack but his attacks still connect...I switch to Dorian for three seconds to put guard on Bull. That idiot moved in range of the wing attack and got killed. My face...

[cyph]

Dual Wield Rogues are so laughably easy that it's almost broken. Here is a video of real time rogue play on Nightmare. Note that I do not use any specialization tree (no assassin, no tempest) just the basic ones. Stealth, Evade, Poison, then most of the Dual Wield tree for combos after combos. Freeze-> Combo, Stun->Combo, Paralyze->Combo. Note how the mages stun lock the Templar abomination. Rogues are basically combo busters. In the video, I didn't use any of the combo detonators on the abomination but he was primed for those as he was frozen, then paralyzed over and over again.

 

The rest of the team merely serves the rogue by setting up the combos. I have guard on hit and hidden blade proc which makes everything too easy, but even without those, you just need to stealth and evade more. Wait for the stun lock, then unleash your combo detonators.

 

There are tons of ways not to get hit. Enemies attack? Backstab. Enemies attack? Stealth. Enemies attack? Evade. Dual wield rogues are extremely fun to play and just plain overpowered if played right.

 

[Gel214th]

The rest of the team merely serves the rogue by setting up the combos. I have guard on hit and hidden blade proc which makes everything too easy, but even without those, you just need to stealth and evade more. Wait for the stun lock, then unleash your combo detonators.

 

There are tons of ways not to get hit. Enemies attack? Backstab. Enemies attack? Stealth. Enemies attack? Evade. Dual wield rogues are extremely fun to play and just plain overpowered if played right.

 

Ok. You are good. 0_0