133 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I thought Vasir was potentially a great character. But it was reasons. She wasn't human and she wasn't working for Cerberus. So she had to die in ME2 and couldn't get that VI for TIM in ME3. She could have been the nemesis for Shepard as opposed to Kai Lame and would have been better because we already knew her.

[SporkFu]

I thought Vasir was potentially a great character. But it was reasons. She wasn't human and she wasn't working for Cerberus. So she had to die in ME2 and couldn't get that VI for TIM in ME3. She could have been the nemesis for Shepard as opposed to Kai Lame and would have been better because we already knew her.

Vasir would have been an awesome replacement for Leng in ME3. Couldn't see her attempting to assassinate the councilors, or take over the citadel, for TIM. She's still a spectre, and I don't think she was a rogue spectre at all, but a damn good one. Easily fixed, though -- just put Bailey in Leng's place on the citadel. 

[von uber]

An option where you can take vasir with you as the third squad mate to the shadow brokers base would have been good.
The incentive could have been vasir getting direct access to the information - maybe becoming the broker - or even liara's right hand woman. Vasir would have seen the advantage in that scenario.
That would have been good.

[themikefest]

I thought Vasir was potentially a great character. But it was reasons. She wasn't human and she wasn't working for Cerberus. So she had to die in ME2 and couldn't get that VI for TIM in ME3. She could have been the nemesis for Shepard as opposed to Kai Lame and would have been better because we already knew her.

I would prefer having her as a squadmate instead of having Liara for a squadmate

[SporkFu]

I would prefer having her as a squadmate instead of having Liara for a squadmate

I likes me some Liara, but I'd have Shiala on the squad over either of them. She's got the cipher, she's a commando. Best of both worlds. Plus she's green.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I would prefer having her as a squadmate instead of having Liara for a squadmate

 

I think merging Liara and Shiala into one character (or just replace Liara entirely) would have made for a much more interesting character. Even BioWare seemed to acknowledge this because Liara might as well be a different character with each iteration of the game released (LiarA and LiarB?)

[Vazgen]

Vasir was a great character, the one I grew to respect and whom I viewed as a reminder of what working with a shadow organization can do to even the best Spectres. She could've at least been a temporary squadmate to accompany Shepard and Liara to SB base. That said, I don't feel sorry for killing her. She made her decision and crossed the line by killing those innocent people at the trade center.

[Display Name Owner]

I thought Vasir was potentially a great character. But it was reasons. She wasn't human and she wasn't working for Cerberus. So she had to die in ME2 and couldn't get that VI for TIM in ME3. She could have been the nemesis for Shepard as opposed to Kai Lame and would have been better because we already knew her.

 

I just wanted to meet another Spectre without ending up killing them. I guess we got that Salarian in ME3 whose name I can't even remember but, y'know - I can't even remember his name. Some involvement with the Spectres would have been a nice distraction from Cerberus and the Alliance.

Vasir was cool though, and even if she was short lived she at least felt like a legitimate badass. Plus they used her to make a good point about Shepard and Cerberus, in fact Shepard came off looking a right fool in their last conversation.

[Valmar]

I have to ask, as someone who didn't feel anything for Vasir and indeed was suspicious of her from first-playthrough, what exactly about her garnered so much respect? She lied, betrayed you and killed a bunch of innocent people. Even took some woman hostage to protect herself.

[ImaginaryMatter]

I have to ask, as someone who didn't feel anything for Vasir and indeed was suspicious of her from first-playthrough, what exactly about her garnered so much respect? She lied, betrayed you and killed a bunch of innocent people. Even took some woman hostage to protect herself.

 

She's abadassmothafucka.

[Vazgen]

I have to ask, as someone who didn't feel anything for Vasir and indeed was suspicious of her from first-playthrough, what exactly about her garnered so much respect? She lied, betrayed you and killed a bunch of innocent people. Even took some woman hostage to protect herself.

For me it's her reasons. Remember the decision to send the data to the Shadow Broker in ME1? She reminds me of Shepard. Surely we were railroaded into being the savior of the galaxy but we can make some extreme decisions along the way. 300000 batarians on Aratoht put the trade center to shame. She believes that the end justifies the means and if she has to kill Liara to save hundreds she'll take that chance. Having to kill a Spectre who works for a terrorist organization will not stop her. She's also a quick thinker and a good fighter.

[Valmar]

I actually do send the data to the SB, usually, as my way of thanking him for helping out with Saren's data. Still this is a stretch from what Vasir does. We blow up the relay to prevent the reapers from coming in, which they definitely are about to do at literally any minute, theres a count-down timer and everything. We're doing something  horrible to prevent something we KNOW is going to happen.

 

Vasir blows up a building and kills a bunch of innocent people to protect some data for the Shadow Broker because he helps her out from time-to-time. She also hides behind a civilian to protect herself. How many lives has his data saved that offsets all the reckless slaughter? Remember her little SB squad even shot down unarmed civilians that managed to survive the blast. Vasir was flying around public air space planting damn mines and caused wrecks and everything else. All this chaos is quite different from opting to send the SB a copy of some data.

 

Honestly, for me, the thing that I find most dishonoring is the fact that she takes an innocent hostage to save her own ass. Using civilians as bait or a diversion is one thing. She was holding one up against her as a shield. That's pretty despicable, imo.

[von uber]

She was holding one up against her as a shield. That's pretty despicable, imo.

 

She was being hunted by someone who was working for a terrorist organisation wanted for atrocities across the galaxy, was injured and trying to get away.

Don't forget that as far as she is concerned, Shep is working for Cerberus - she has to get away. Shep doesn't have to shoot the hostage or injure her - she can just let Vasir get away (or of course save her using Liara).

It's that sort of ruthlessness that makes her a good SPECTRE in my opinion. She a nice morally grey character, and nicely skewers the morality of Shep working for Cerberus. it works rather well too given the amount of outrage her comments caused and the degree of justification people come up t work with cerberus - no different to her working for the Shadow Broker.

Shep can do some pretty dodgy things too - unless you play as a dull paragon insta-win girl scout of course.

[Vazgen]

 

I actually do send the data to the SB, usually, as my way of thanking him for helping out with Saren's data. Still this is a stretch from what Vasir does. We blow up the relay to prevent the reapers from coming in, which they definitely are about to do at literally any minute, theres a count-down timer and everything. We're doing something  horrible to prevent something we KNOW is going to happen.

 

Vasir blows up a building and kills a bunch of innocent people to protect some data for the Shadow Broker because he helps her out from time-to-time. She also hides behind a civilian to protect herself. How many lives has his data saved that offsets all the reckless slaughter? Remember her little SB squad even shot down unarmed civilians that managed to survive the blast. Vasir was flying around public air space planting damn mines and caused wrecks and everything else. All this chaos is quite different from opting to send the SB a copy of some data.

 

Honestly, for me, the thing that I find most dishonoring is the fact that she takes an innocent hostage to save her own ass. Using civilians as bait or a diversion is one thing. She was holding one up against her as a shield. That's pretty despicable, imo.

Well we don't really know if she doesn't think that she prevents something horrible. As for taking a hostage, have you heard "Shoot the hostage" dialogue? Shepard himself acknowledges that as a smart move  

For me, she's exactly what Saren was before becoming indoctrinated and what Shepard can become if he is too renegade. I respect that

[ImaginaryMatter]

Vasir blows up a building and kills a bunch of innocent people to protect some data for the Shadow Broker because he helps her out from time-to-time. She also hides behind a civilian to protect herself. How many lives has his data saved that offsets all the reckless slaughter? Remember her little SB squad even shot down unarmed civilians that managed to survive the blast. Vasir was flying around public air space planting damn mines and caused wrecks and everything else. All this chaos is quite different from opting to send the SB a copy of some data.

 

Honestly, for me, the thing that I find most dishonoring is the fact that she takes an innocent hostage to save her own ass. Using civilians as bait or a diversion is one thing. She was holding one up against her as a shield. That's pretty despicable, imo.

 

I see what you mean. Cerberus is in the same boat for me. After seeing the continual failed experiments, seemingly pointless loss of life that plaques Cerberus's science projects and rogue cells; makes all of TIM's lofty talk about pragmatically advancing humanity seems like a moral handwave to disguise that he's Mass Effect's version of Umbrella Corp. Even if you do the brute math it doesn't even seem like they're way behind even a break even point.

 

This is where I think the need to play to a shooter's market really hurts ME's story. I don't think any of this was actually intended (Shepard can't call out Vasir's body count) but a byproduct of needing explosions and mooks to shoot at. LotSB really should have been a more covert affair where violence leads to a much worse win state (or mission failure), we are dealing with spies after all.

 

Where was a I even going with all of this...? I still think she's a cool character, like the Mass Effect original-Star-Wars-movie-trilogy Boba Fett. She makes me proud to be in the badasss Spectre club (even if we are a little morally reprehensible)

[Display Name Owner]

I actually do send the data to the SB, usually, as my way of thanking him for helping out with Saren's data. Still this is a stretch from what Vasir does. We blow up the relay to prevent the reapers from coming in, which they definitely are about to do at literally any minute, theres a count-down timer and everything. We're doing something  horrible to prevent something we KNOW is going to happen.

 

Vasir blows up a building and kills a bunch of innocent people to protect some data for the Shadow Broker because he helps her out from time-to-time. She also hides behind a civilian to protect herself. How many lives has his data saved that offsets all the reckless slaughter? Remember her little SB squad even shot down unarmed civilians that managed to survive the blast. Vasir was flying around public air space planting damn mines and caused wrecks and everything else. All this chaos is quite different from opting to send the SB a copy of some data.

 

Honestly, for me, the thing that I find most dishonoring is the fact that she takes an innocent hostage to save her own ass. Using civilians as bait or a diversion is one thing. She was holding one up against her as a shield. That's pretty despicable, imo.

 

Well, I don't like everything she does as such, but I like the fact that she does it in a way because it represents what the Spectres are all about. They're supposed to be the ones who do the dark things for the greater good if necessary. Even Nihlus was using villagers as shields to evade Samara IIRC. We don't know what kind of intel the Broker gave Vasir or what operations it enabled her to do, but the implication is that it outweighs the terrible stuff she's involved in. Or maybe it doesn't, who knows. Either way, Spectres are essentially there to preserve the status quo, and the Broker is so integrated into the system that allowing him and his network to be brought down probably would have caused a lot more problems than we even know.

 

I guess I like the idea that the Spectres' job can't be done without sacrifices - gives them, the Council and the galaxy in general a bit of flavour. Plus, it's a nice parallel to Shepard's working with Cerberus, which I admit is kind of flawed since it's not like we were given a choice in that matter, but still. Imo it's too easy for Shepard to be a nice guy hero without messing up, but I guess this is ME, not the Witcher. In that sense Vasir is probably a more effective character in an at least partly renegade playthrough, which is good for me because those are the only kind I like.

[Valmar]

She was being hunted by someone who was working for a terrorist organisation wanted for atrocities across the galaxy, was injured and trying to get away.

Don't forget that as far as she is concerned, Shep is working for Cerberus - she has to get away. Shep doesn't have to shoot the hostage or injure her - she can just let Vasir get away (or of course save her using Liara).

It's that sort of ruthlessness that makes her a good SPECTRE in my opinion. She a nice morally grey character, and nicely skewers the morality of Shep working for Cerberus. it works rather well too given the amount of outrage her comments caused and the degree of justification people come up t work with cerberus - no different to her working for the Shadow Broker.

Shep can do some pretty dodgy things too - unless you play as a dull paragon insta-win girl scout of course.

 

Yes, I'm not oblivious to Shepard's position in her eyes. She tells you as much when she dies. I play pretty heavily Renegade and I can tell you with near certainty that Shepard ever grabs an innocent civilian to use as a meat shield.

 

I don't care if she was fighting off an indoctrinated Hitler cyborg. No matter how evil and monstrous her opponent is that doesn't negate the fact that shes protecting herself with an unarmed, frightened civilian. That's cowardly and despicable, imo.

 

 

 

 

 

Well we don't really know if she doesn't think that she prevents something horrible. As for taking a hostage, have you heard "Shoot the hostage" dialogue? Shepard himself acknowledges that as a smart move

 

It is a smart move. I never said it was dumb. I only said it was despicable and cowardly. I don't think Shepard would do something like that - even if renegade. Why is saying something since renegade Shep can do some pretty brutal ****.

 

 

 

 

For me, she's exactly what Saren was before becoming indoctrinated and what Shepard can become if he is too renegade. I respect that

 

 

I get that. Though I still feel that taking an innocent civilian hostage as a meatshield is beyond being 'renegade' and is entering plain evil territory. I have no sympathy, respect or honor for people who resort to such means.

 

 

I see what you mean. Cerberus is in the same boat for me. After seeing the continual failed experiments, seemingly pointless loss of life that plaques Cerberus's science projects and rogue cells; makes all of TIM's lofty talk about pragmatically advancing humanity seems like a moral handwave to disguise that he's Mass Effect's version of Umbrella Corp. Even if you do the brute math it doesn't even seem like they're way behind even a break even point.

 

This is where I think the need to play to a shooter's market really hurts ME's story. I don't think any of this was actually intended (Shepard can't call out Vasir's body count) but a byproduct of needing explosions and mooks to shoot at. LotSB really should have been a more covert affair where violence leads to a much worse win state (or mission failure), we are dealing with spies after all.

 

Where was a I even going with all of this...? I still think she's a cool character, like the Mass Effect original-Star-Wars-movie-trilogy Boba Fett. She makes me proud to be in the badasss Spectre club (even if we are a little morally reprehensible)

 

Honestly, prior to ME3 of course, I actually respected TIM. There was enough moral ambiguity to keep him interesting. For everything bad Cerberus did there was an explanation that painted it differently. It wasn't a dry-cut case. The **** in the first game? Those were rogue cells, not TIM's handy work. Justification. Jacks' childhood? Rogue scientists, they were keeping it secret from TIM even. Project Overlord? Genius egg-head Archer decided to bypass protocol and ended up messing everything up because of it. Again, not TIM's fault.  There was a lot of gray territory back then in the game.

 

 

Well, I don't like everything she does as such, but I like the fact that she does it in a way because it represents what the Spectres are all about. They're supposed to be the ones who do the dark things for the greater good if necessary. Even Nihlus was using villagers as shields to evade Samara IIRC. We don't know what kind of intel the Broker gave Vasir or what operations it enabled her to do, but the implication is that it outweighs the terrible stuff she's involved in. Or maybe it doesn't, who knows. Either way, Spectres are essentially there to preserve the status quo, and the Broker is so integrated into the system that allowing him and his network to be brought down probably would have caused a lot more problems than we even know.

 

I guess I like the idea that the Spectres' job can't be done without sacrifices - gives them, the Council and the galaxy in general a bit of flavour. Plus, it's a nice parallel to Shepard's working with Cerberus, which I admit is kind of flawed since it's not like we were given a choice in that matter, but still. Imo it's too easy for Shepard to be a nice guy hero without messing up, but I guess this is ME, not the Witcher. In that sense Vasir is probably a more effective character in an at least partly renegade playthrough, which is good for me because those are the only kind I like.

 

Nihlus was a different situation. He didn't grab some random hostage and hold her up with a gun against her head as a hostage to save his own ass. There was an innocent hostage involved, yes, but it couldn't be the same circumstances if he was able to get away. Plus Samara is a justicar so the hostage was never in any danger of being hurt - a justicar would be absolutely compelled to save the innocent. It isn't a gamble with the innocence's life - there was no risk of them dying since we're talking about a Justicar.

 

It was the hostage shield that crossed the line for me. I cannot overlook that. I can understand the 'greater good' bit with everything else there, even if I don't like it, I can understand that she was doing it for a cause she believed to be for the greater good. That doesn't mean I'm okay with blowing up buildings full of civilians and having civilians who try to escape get shot down like cattle for no good reason. But I'm able to look past my bias and accept the 'greater good' being an argument here. I CAN'T however look past her using some poor innocent woman as a shield her own ass. That crosses a line for me.

 

No argument is going to make taking a random innocent civilian as a bullet shield as anything other than despicable and cowardly, imo. I can see no justification. It's made all the worse by the fact that she apparently could had just charged out of there instead. She could had charged up to upper balcony like she does in the fight. Unless you're playing as a biotic with charge, she'd be pretty safe at least until you find another way up there.

[Vazgen]

Question about Vasir hostage scene. In all the videos I saw Shepard uses Carnifex pistol. Is it default for ME2, like Predator in ME3? Or it just shows what you have equipped?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Question about Vasir hostage scene. In all the videos I saw Shepard uses Carnifex pistol. Is it default for ME2, like Predator in ME3? Or it just shows what you have equipped?

 

In ME2 (apart from cutscenes like Garrus recruitment mission where Shepard is diving and flipping... or any line holding the squadmates do) the drawn weapons are the one's Shepard currently has equipped (they even correctly use shotguns and sniper rifles in parts!).

[Vazgen]

In ME2 (apart from cutscenes like Garrus recruitment mission where Shepard is diving and flipping... or any line holding the squadmates do) the drawn weapons are the one's Shepard currently has equipped (they even correctly use shotguns and sniper rifles in parts!).

And when they are forced to use certain weapons? I remember Avenger in Legion's scope but can't remember the pistol. I ask, because my weapon setup is Avenger + Shuriken + Predator Will I have to switch Predator to Carnifex?

[ImaginaryMatter]

Honestly, prior to ME3 of course, I actually respected TIM. There was enough moral ambiguity to keep him interesting. For everything bad Cerberus did there was an explanation that painted it differently. It wasn't a dry-cut case. The **** in the first game? Those were rogue cells, not TIM's handy work. Justification. Jacks' childhood? Rogue scientists, they were keeping it secret from TIM even. Project Overlord? Genius egg-head Archer decided to bypass protocol and ended up messing everything up because of it. Again, not TIM's fault.  There was a lot of gray territory back then in the game.

 

I don't see moral ambiguity, I just see it as TIM saying one thing and his actions saying something completely different. For the majority of Cerberus experiments it seems like things either result in almost exclusively human casualties, something breaking free and killing all their guys, or a rogue cell. This all points to something deeper that being pragmatically ruthless. The only parts of Cerberus that seem to do well are the public ones which seem to work in spite of TIM being somehow involved. It also seems a little suspicious that a covert group micromanged by TIM would have so many rogue cells. If TIM's actions were limited to things like luring the Collectors to Horizon I could buy it, but introducing so much Cerberus incompetency into the story draws so many allusions to Umbrella Corp that I can't stop seeing it.

[von uber]

The breaking point being vasir taking a hostage to try and save her life from a rogue spectre is fair enough in my opinion.
Saying that specific act crosses the line is strange given all the stuff shep can do throughout the trilogy.

Vasir is a mirror to a certain shep. That's what makes her a good character as well as being well written - given her relatively short appearance she leaves a big impression.
She comes across as a thoroughly competent spectre who operates as they are supposed to. Shame mass effect didn't carry on pursuing that route.

[Daemul]

She was holding one up against her as a shield. That's pretty despicable, imo.

IDGAF. As Shepard, I can do far worse things, I ain't about to start judging after some of the **** I've pulled.

I would have loved to work with Vasir. We really needed to be involved with the Council and other Spectres more, and have our Spectre position put to more use, instead of just being Alliance drones. That **** got old real quick in ME3.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Some lesser decisions - well maybe one is pretty important. What would YOU do in a RL situation? No easy outs with the compromise wheel.

 

1) Merc - push out window or let him go

2) Rana Thanoptis - shoot or let go

3) Wrex on Virmire - Let Ash shoot or shoot him yourself or are you a good enough talker to talk him down?

4) Batarian Bartender - make him drink it OR make a scene OR chase him off (he has killed before)

5) AI Core - Side with Legion OR Side with Tali (no, you cannot compromise)

6) Miranda's Office - Side with Jack OR Side with Miranda - Argument was because Miranda wouldn't admit what Cerberus did to Jack was wrong. (no compromise)

7) Heretics - Rewrite OR Destroy

8) Tela Vasir - Thermal Clips on the ground OR Shoot the hostage - remember this is not a video game, so that shot has to be very very accurate, and you'd better have AP ammo equipped.

 

1.) Lego

2.) Lego ... at that time not enough was known about Indoctrination.

3.) I've typically kept Wrex alive but it's really not smart to take any chances when someone points their gun at you, so shoot him I guess.

4.) Taste of your own medicine, doctor.

5.) Honestly I really do not blame either one for doing what they did. Gun to my head, though? Tali.

6.) Protect Jack like the great wall of China.

7.) Rewrite, since more of them voted for it than destroy. Turns out to be the wrong decision. Good to know. Let it be another lesson on why democracy sucks.

8.) Shoot the hostage.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Let's see what most Shepard's have done:

 

* Thrown the merc out the window. - come on. You did that, and you know it.

* Jack Bauer interrogation of Elias Kelham.

* Shot Elnora the mercenary.

* Told Jack that "a bullet in the head solves everything." I know that now.

* Told Miranda that Niket sold her out. - don't tell me you've never done that.

* Turned over a strategic asset to a terrorist organization - if you saved the base.

* And last but not least - blew up the Alpha Relay killing 300,000 Batarians. - And it didn't even slow down the Reapers. Remember EDI saying "that slowed them down about two years?" EDI forgot about the BBQ on Khar'shan.

 

That's what you could have done by the time you did LotSB.

 

"Don't you dare judge me...."