And that's just some of the stuff in ME2. Let's not forget the nuclear bomb on Virmire, killing the Thorian on Feros, destroying a potentially priceless source of prothean information on Therum, and possibly extinctifying the rachni again on Noveria.
Although, I gotta say, most of the time I don't tell Jack that a bullet in the head solves everything. 
Let's see what most Shepard's have done:
* Thrown the merc out the window. - come on. You did that, and you know it.
* Jack Bauer interrogation of Elias Kelham.
* Shot Elnora the mercenary.
* Told Jack that "a bullet in the head solves everything." I know that now.
* Told Miranda that Niket sold her out. - don't tell me you've never done that.
* Turned over a strategic asset to a terrorist organization - if you saved the base.
* And last but not least - blew up the Alpha Relay killing 300,000 Batarians. - And it didn't even slow down the Reapers. Remember EDI saying "that slowed them down about two years?" EDI forgot about the BBQ on Khar'shan.
That's what you could have done by the time you did LotSB.
"Don't you dare judge me...."
*That is a merc, one of whom was part of an outfit that was killing innocent dock workers. Not innocent at all.
*So he threatened some criminal scumbag to get information. That isn't the same as taking an innocent civilian hostage.
*Shot a criminal that murdered someone to get a damn uniform and was drawing a gun on you. Not the same.
*The guy was a loon who wanted to start up a facility that tortured children to justify his existence. Not the same.
*Every time but I don't know how telling her that someone sold her out is considered equivalent to holding an innocent civilian hostage.
*There are so many practical reasons to save the base, with one of the only reasons to destroy it being moral clashes. Still not the same.
*Blowing up that relay was the only option. It was either that or let the reapers pour in through the galaxy literally in a matter of hours.
Nothing you've brought up is at all comparable to taking an unarmed, innocent civilian bystander hostage, putting a gun to her head and using her as a meat shield. It is utterly disturbing to see so many people defend or justify this type of behavior. She used an innocent civilian as a meat shield to protect her own ass.
Also you do realize that at one point in this you basically said that because you can accuse someone of betrayal you're automatically on the same level of someone who takes a civilian hostage as a meat shield. That's a really, really insane comparison. If I curse and use foul language does that put me on the same terms as someone who blew up a building, had civilians shot down as they tried to escape and then took one hostage?
And that's just some of the stuff in ME2. Let's not forget the nuclear bomb on Virmire, killing the Thorian on Feros, destroying a potentially priceless source of prothean information on Therum, and possibly extinctifying the rachni again on Noveria.
The bomb wasn't even Shepard's idea, it was the STG team. Frankly, I felt it would be better to just leave and come back with an actual army. I never understood the need for blowing it up that very second. Would an extra day really make that huge of a difference?
The thorian enslaved the inhabitants of the colony and were using them as thralls. Not innocent.
Therum was an accident. Shepard had to get through that wall to get to Liara, potentially saving her life and getting more information on her mother and finding a key to stopping Saren. The cave-in was not on purpose. Accidentally ruining a prothean dig site is not the same as taking an innocent woman hostage. Again, disturbing how often I have to point to this out.
The rachni have been nothing but a threat to the galaxy since the beginning. You have it on nothing other than her word that she is peaceful and that they're innocent. Which, for the record, of course she would say. It would be rather foolish of her to gloat about how she's going to eat the faces off every human she finds when she gets out. In her situation what else would she say other than plea for mercy and claim innocence? This isn't a clear-cut case and there are valid reasons for both decisions. It does not compare to taking an innocent civilian hostage, putting a gun to her head and using her as a meat shield to protect your own ass.
Shepard does some questionable things in the trilogy, no doubt. Though the more horrible things (that you could relate to taking a hostage - I don't consider harsh language to be on the same level) that Shepard has done have always had some level of justification. That doesn't mean I personally agree with every decision but I am aware that there are valid arguments to be made. It is never a clear-cut case. Even if it was, its still optional as Shepard's actions are determined by the player and are not canon.
Vasir taking the hostage is canon. It is something she always does, regardless of anything. Even though we are shortly after shown that she could had just biotically jumped up to the upper balance and gotten away. There were other options presented to her but she chose to do the most cowardly and despicable thing she could do and hide behind an innocent civilian who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Seeing people argue that she was justified to do so because Shepard is working with terrorists is crazy. Shepard could be Space Hitler and it still wouldn't justify her using some poor random innocent woman as a meat shield.
In all honesty though I still feel everything she did was horrible. I can understand people defending it, even if I don't agree with it. I can't understand the hostage thing being defended though. That shouldn't be subjective. It's clear-cut villain tactics in my books.
*snip*
You're one argumentative dude, dude. 
You don't even know for sure that Mariana's all that innocent. Maybe she works for a company that trades slaves indentured servants, or maybe she's a red sand mule, or one of the other bazillion not-so-innocent things that people get up to on Ilium on a daily basis... All you know for sure is that she's a mom, and she's sitting out on the patio of the Hotel Azure having some drinks, and is in the wrong place at the wrong time.
You don't think it's possible, even remotely, that Vasir took Mariana hostage precisely because she knew shep wouldn't let Mariana become a meat shield? If shep points out to Vasir that one hostage isn't going to stop her, Vasir seems a little taken aback, IIRC.
Nihlus was a different situation. He didn't grab some random hostage and hold her up with a gun against her head as a hostage to save his own ass. There was an innocent hostage involved, yes, but it couldn't be the same circumstances if he was able to get away. Plus Samara is a justicar so the hostage was never in any danger of being hurt - a justicar would be absolutely compelled to save the innocent. It isn't a gamble with the innocence's life - there was no risk of them dying since we're talking about a Justicar.
It was the hostage shield that crossed the line for me. I cannot overlook that. I can understand the 'greater good' bit with everything else there, even if I don't like it, I can understand that she was doing it for a cause she believed to be for the greater good. That doesn't mean I'm okay with blowing up buildings full of civilians and having civilians who try to escape get shot down like cattle for no good reason. But I'm able to look past my bias and accept the 'greater good' being an argument here. I CAN'T however look past her using some poor innocent woman as a shield her own ass. That crosses a line for me.
No argument is going to make taking a random innocent civilian as a bullet shield as anything other than despicable and cowardly, imo. I can see no justification. It's made all the worse by the fact that she apparently could had just charged out of there instead. She could had charged up to upper balcony like she does in the fight. Unless you're playing as a biotic with charge, she'd be pretty safe at least until you find another way up there.
That's fair enough. It didn't bother me so much personally, I guess the life of an interstellar state policeman numbed me to the evils of the galaxy lol. But no, I guess it's for us to decide where we draw the line. To me it doesn't seem quite that sinister because I don't think Vasir actually intended to harm the hostage, but she was backed into a corner and she needed something to make Shep step away. IIRC she lets her go if Shep drops his clips. Besides, as a Spectre it's not like it matters if the hostage tells on her, so she didn't need to kill her to cover her tracks or anything - it was just the only way to aid Vasir's situation. No less traumatic and terrible for the hostage, but Shepard is no stranger to using intimidation to get what he/she wants, even the pure paragonshep.
Shepard does some questionable things in the trilogy, no doubt. Though the more horrible things (that you could relate to taking a hostage - I don't consider harsh language to be on the same level) that Shepard has done have always had some level of justification. That doesn't mean I personally agree with every decision but I am aware that there are valid arguments to be made. It is never a clear-cut case. Even if it was, its still optional as Shepard's actions are determined by the player and are not canon.
You need to to do a kill all playthrough just to see what Shepard can do.
If someone doesn't play the broker dlc, that individual will never know about the hostage thing. The only thing is that the Shadow broker was defeated.
You're one argumentative dude, dude.
I don't mean to be. Mostly stirring up conversation.
You don't even know for sure that Mariana's all that innocent. Maybe she works for a company that trades
slavesindentured servants, or maybe she's a red sand mule, or one of the other bazillion not-so-innocent things that people get up to on Ilium on a daily basis... All you know for sure is that she's a mom, and she's sitting out on the patio of the Hotel Azure having some drinks, and is in the wrong place at the wrong time.
If you want to be technical you don't even know for sure she is a mom - she could be lying. We know nothing about her, thats true. She could be a rapist serial killer pedophile who gouges out Asari eyes on her day off. You can speculate all kinds of horrible things about her. However in the narrative all we know about her is that she is an innocent bystander who gets taken hostage but someone who just blew up a building, planted mines in pubic traffic, causes collisions and had innocent civilians gunned down. We're given NO reason whatsoever to view her as anything other than some scared innocent woman taken against her will. Was it commendable when Balak did this, just because he felt he was fighting for a just cause?
You don't think it's possible, even remotely, that Vasir took Mariana hostage precisely because she knew shep wouldn't let Mariana become a meat shield? If shep points out to Vasir that one hostage isn't going to stop her, Vasir seems a little taken aback, IIRC.
Honestly I believe she knew it was a gamble. Look at all the **** she accuses Shepard of. Remember from her perspective he's quite the monster. She may expect it to buy some leverage but I don't think she was certain of it's out come. Shepard isn't a justicar, who are really the only ones you can be truly sure about with this.
That's fair enough. It didn't bother me so much personally, I guess the life of an interstellar state policeman numbed me to the evils of the galaxy lol. But no, I guess it's for us to decide where we draw the line. To me it doesn't seem quite that sinister because I don't think Vasir actually intended to harm the hostage, but she was backed into a corner and she needed something to make Shep step away. IIRC she lets her go if Shep drops his clips. Besides, as a Spectre it's not like it matters if the hostage tells on her, so she didn't need to kill her to cover her tracks or anything - it was just the only way to aid Vasir's situation. No less traumatic and terrible for the hostage, but Shepard is no stranger to using intimidation to get what he/she wants, even the pure paragonshep.
Difference in opinion, I guess. In my eyes taking an unarmed innocent civilian hostage, putting a gun to her head and using her as a shield is sinister and the tactic only criminals and scumbag cowards do - not something a Spectre should be commended for. Shepard isn't a stranger to intimidation, true, but I still fail to see how anything he does relates to this.
You need to to do a kill all playthrough just to see what Shepard can do.
If someone doesn't play the broker dlc, that individual will never know about the hostage thing. The only thing is that the Shadow broker was defeated.
You're making the assumption that I haven't. I know what Shepard can do. Infact most of my playthroughs are pretty heavily renegade. I'm not oblivious to the fact that Shepard isn't a perfect boy-scout saint, hell you'd probably notice I'm usually the one bringing this stuff up in conversations. I just don't see how any of this changes what Vasir does. Again, even if Shepard was Hitler it wouldn't change the facts that Vasir grabbed an unarmed innocent civilian and used her as a meat shield to protect her own ass.
I know that about the Shadow Broker DLC. I fail to see what relevance any of that actually has on anything, though. You're taking me a bit too literally, though its my fault for wording it so absolutely and broadly, I suppose.
I don't mean to be. Mostly stirring up conversation.
I know, and I didn't intend to come across as snarky. Conversation is a good thing.
If you want to be technical you don't even know for sure she is a mom - she could be lying. We know nothing about her, thats true. She could be a rapist serial killer pedophile who gouges out Asari eyes on her day off. You can speculate all kinds of horrible things about her. However in the narrative all we know about her is that she is an innocent bystander who gets taken hostage but someone who just blew up a building, planted mines in pubic traffic, causes collisions and had innocent civilians gunned down. We're given NO reason whatsoever to view her as anything other than some scared innocent woman taken against her will. Was it commendable when Balak did this, just because he felt he was fighting for a just cause?
Well, she's got no reason to lie at this point. It's just that when you gave a few examples of the people shep has... interacted with... as not being innocent, well we don't know anything more about them either. That merc you can push out the window? Sure, he's an eclipse merc, but we don't even know his name? Has he done anything to justify being pushed out a skyscraper window at that point, other than an awesome catchphrase, that is? Possibly. Possibly not. We dunno any more about him than we do Mariana, except that he's an uncooperative jerk.
Same goes for Aresh at the Tilton facility. He intends to restart the facility where he was once a subject. He hasn't done it yet. Is that a justifiable reason for shep to encourage Jack to murder him? Hmm...
Honestly I believe she knew it was a gamble. Look at all the **** she accuses Shepard of. Remember from her perspective he's quite the monster. She may expect it to buy some leverage but I don't think she was certain of it's out come. Shepard isn't a justicar, who are really the only ones you can be truly sure about with this.
I dunno if she thinks shep is a monster, exactly. She's calling shep out on being a hypocrite for judging her a monster.
You're making the assumption that I haven't. I know what Shepard can do. Infact most of my playthroughs are pretty heavily renegade. I'm not oblivious to the fact that Shepard isn't a perfect boy-scout saint, hell you'd probably notice I'm usually the one bringing this stuff up in conversations. I just don't see how any of this changes what Vasir does. Again, even if Shepard was Hitler it wouldn't change the facts that Vasir grabbed an unarmed innocent civilian and used her as a meat shield to protect her own ass.
I know that about the Shadow Broker DLC. I fail to see what relevance any of that actually has on anything, though. You're taking me a bit too literally, though its my fault for wording it so absolutely and broadly, I suppose.
No assumption. You haven't done the playthrough I did. I wouldn't be surprised that you didn't know about some of the characters that can be killed. Being heavily renegade and killing everyone are 2 different things. I've done a full reneagade playthrough and saved everyone except the council, which I never do.
It really bothers you that Vasir grabbing a hostage to use as a shield. Why is that? The worst that happens to the girl is she gets wounded. Big deal. I would've killed her. But that's me.
I don't know why you mention Hitler since this is a video game and not about something that happened 70+ years ago in real life.
I wasn't taking you literally. You just failed to realize that some people never played the dlc and that Vasir would grab a hostage when the events leading up to the death of the shadow broker may of happened differently if the dlc wasn't played. The one thing that is canon is the broker is dead.
I know, and I didn't intend to come across as snarky. Conversation is a good thing.
No worries, you didn't.
Well, she's got no reason to lie at this point.
Who, Mariana? Some lunatic Asari is holding her hostage and pressing a gun against her head - that's pretty good reason to lie and play the "please, I have a son!" card, to try to appeal to her sense of morality. I'm not saying she is lying, infact I'd just go ahead and assume she's telling the truth. The point I was making is that you don't really KNOW. We work with what we have. What we know with all the information before us is that she is an innocent civilian, a mother, who is being held hostage with a gun against her head.
It's just that when you gave a few examples of the people shep has... interacted with... as not being innocent, well we don't know anything more about them either. That merc you can push out the window? Sure, he's an eclipse merc, but we don't even know his name? Has he done anything to justify being pushed out a skyscraper window at that point, other than an awesome catchphrase, that is? Possibly. Possibly not. We dunno any more about him than we do Mariana, except that he's an uncooperative jerk.
The circumstances of these events are COMPLETELY different. The merc was part of the same outfit of mercs that were killing civilian workers and having them jump off the edges to escape their mechanical dogs. He is part of that. Does that mean he personally took part in it? No. But the situation is different, hes still part of the same group of people. There is justification for killing the ******* based on the circumstances surrounding him. There is no, repeat, no reason whatsoever to assume Mariana is anything more than some innocent woman Vasir took hostage.
Same goes for Aresh at the Tilton facility. He intends to restart the facility where he was once a subject. He hasn't done it yet. Is that a justifiable reason for shep to encourage Jack to murder him? Hmm...
It's rather subjective and depends on your morals. If someone intends and dedicates themselves to doing something horrible but hasn't actually done it yet (though is certainly trying) does that warrant them being classed as a criminal? When do you draw the line? Arguments can be made from both sides. I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong, I'm not even saying that I agree with this or that. I'm saying that in these situations it is not a clear-cut case and is walking the moral-gray line. Taking an innocent woman hostage as a bullet shield to save your own ass is not the same thing as killing someone who is mentally disturbed and working towards restarting a facility that tortured children.
I dunno if she thinks shep is a monster, exactly. She's calling shep out on being a hypocrite for judging her a monster.
Does a pretty poor job of it, really. She's judging Shepard because of the deeds CERBERUS has done in the past. Where as Shepard can judge her personally for the deeds she just committed herself. I'm not saying there aren't things that Shepard could or should be judged for, only that her examples were not really a fair comparison to herself. She judges him because of the stuff Cerberus has done, he judges her for what she herself did. Not the same cup of tea.
No assumption. You haven't done the playthrough I did. I wouldn't be surprised that you didn't know about some of the characters that can be killed. Being heavily renegade and killing everyone are 2 different things. I've done a full reneagade playthrough and saved everyone except the council, which I never do.
Still a bit too literal, though again its my fault. I'll rephrase it. I know of the deaths that can happen, regardless of morality. You're assuming I haven't done the playthrough you did - which is only a fair assumption if you're modded or mean it LITERALLY (Femshep, broshep, same class, same weapons, yadda yadda). I will admit that I haven't PLAYED it that way but I have seen it played that way. I've spent ungodly amounts of time watching Mass Effect stuff all over the internet. I have a problem. Frankly I'd be pretty damn stunned if there were things that I didn't know about. Not saying there aren't, just that its kinda rare at this point. Especially when it comes to something as 'big' as having characters die off.
It really bothers you that Vasir grabbing a hostage to use as a shield. Why is that? The worst that happens to the girl is she gets wounded. Big deal. I would've killed her. But that's me.
It isn't so much that she did it that bothers me but the fact that people are sticking up for her, respecting her or worst COMMENDING her for it. It bothers me that it doesn't bother others, I guess. It's pretty disturbing.
I don't know why you mention Hitler since this is a video game and not about something that happened 70+ years ago in real life.
You're missing the context for which that statement was directed. People were making the argument that because Shepard can be shady and not perfect nice-guy or completely innocent then that means its okay for Vasir to take a hostage. I was trying to elaborate my point that it is completely irrelevant how bad Shepard is, it doesn't make her actions more justified. It is not suddenly 'okay' for her to take an innocent woman as a meat shield just because Shepard can be an *******. Even if Shepard was as bad as Hitler it wouldn't make her taking an innocent as a meat shield any more commendable, that is my point.
I wasn't taking you literally. You just failed to realize that some people never played the dlc and that Vasir would grab a hostage when the events leading up to the death of the shadow broker may of happened differently if the dlc wasn't played. The one thing that is canon is the broker is dead.
More assumptions. No, I did not fail to realize that. I'm well aware of it. The fact that you think I'm not just shows that you took me too literally. Which I admitted earlier was my fault for how I worded it.
You're making the assumption that I haven't. I know what Shepard can do. Infact most of my playthroughs are pretty heavily renegade. I'm not oblivious to the fact that Shepard isn't a perfect boy-scout saint, hell you'd probably notice I'm usually the one bringing this stuff up in conversations. I just don't see how any of this changes what Vasir does. Again, even if Shepard was Hitler it wouldn't change the facts that Vasir grabbed an unarmed innocent civilian and used her as a meat shield to protect her own ass.
I know that about the Shadow Broker DLC. I fail to see what relevance any of that actually has on anything, though. You're taking me a bit too literally, though its my fault for wording it so absolutely and broadly, I suppose.
Hmm? Being heavily renegade and killing everyone are mutually exclusive. You can be full Renegade and still save nearly everyone.
EDIT:Damnit! Beaten by Mike!
Hmm? Being heavily renegade and killing everyone are mutually exclusive. You can be full Renegade and still save nearly everyone.
EDIT:Damnit! Beaten by Mike!
I know. Like I mentioned earlier, its was poorly worded not meant to be taken so literally. Most people associate all the death and killing as being 'renegade'. I know it doesn't HAVE to be. I just meant it in that regard. I was using it as a generalization, basically.
*That is a merc, one of whom was part of an outfit that was killing innocent dock workers. Not innocent at all.
*So he threatened some criminal scumbag to get information. That isn't the same as taking an innocent civilian hostage.
*Shot a criminal that murdered someone to get a damn uniform and was drawing a gun on you. Not the same.
*The guy was a loon who wanted to start up a facility that tortured children to justify his existence. Not the same.
*Every time but I don't know how telling her that someone sold her out is considered equivalent to holding an innocent civilian hostage.
*There are so many practical reasons to save the base, with one of the only reasons to destroy it being moral clashes. Still not the same.
*Blowing up that relay was the only option. It was either that or let the reapers pour in through the galaxy literally in a matter of hours.
Nothing you've brought up is at all comparable to taking an unarmed, innocent civilian bystander hostage, putting a gun to her head and using her as a meat shield. It is utterly disturbing to see so many people defend or justify this type of behavior. She used an innocent civilian as a meat shield to protect her own ass.
Also you do realize that at one point in this you basically said that because you can accuse someone of betrayal you're automatically on the same level of someone who takes a civilian hostage as a meat shield. That's a really, really insane comparison. If I curse and use foul language does that put me on the same terms as someone who blew up a building, had civilians shot down as they tried to escape and then took one hostage?
The bomb wasn't even Shepard's idea, it was the STG team. Frankly, I felt it would be better to just leave and come back with an actual army. I never understood the need for blowing it up that very second. Would an extra day really make that huge of a difference?
The thorian enslaved the inhabitants of the colony and were using them as thralls. Not innocent.
Therum was an accident. Shepard had to get through that wall to get to Liara, potentially saving her life and getting more information on her mother and finding a key to stopping Saren. The cave-in was not on purpose. Accidentally ruining a prothean dig site is not the same as taking an innocent woman hostage. Again, disturbing how often I have to point to this out.
The rachni have been nothing but a threat to the galaxy since the beginning. You have it on nothing other than her word that she is peaceful and that they're innocent. Which, for the record, of course she would say. It would be rather foolish of her to gloat about how she's going to eat the faces off every human she finds when she gets out. In her situation what else would she say other than plea for mercy and claim innocence? This isn't a clear-cut case and there are valid reasons for both decisions. It does not compare to taking an innocent civilian hostage, putting a gun to her head and using her as a meat shield to protect your own ass.
Shepard does some questionable things in the trilogy, no doubt. Though the more horrible things (that you could relate to taking a hostage - I don't consider harsh language to be on the same level) that Shepard has done have always had some level of justification. That doesn't mean I personally agree with every decision but I am aware that there are valid arguments to be made. It is never a clear-cut case. Even if it was, its still optional as Shepard's actions are determined by the player and are not canon.
Vasir taking the hostage is canon. It is something she always does, regardless of anything. Even though we are shortly after shown that she could had just biotically jumped up to the upper balance and gotten away. There were other options presented to her but she chose to do the most cowardly and despicable thing she could do and hide behind an innocent civilian who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Seeing people argue that she was justified to do so because Shepard is working with terrorists is crazy. Shepard could be Space Hitler and it still wouldn't justify her using some poor random innocent woman as a meat shield.
In all honesty though I still feel everything she did was horrible. I can understand people defending it, even if I don't agree with it. I can't understand the hostage thing being defended though. That shouldn't be subjective. It's clear-cut villain tactics in my books.
Shepard didn't threaten a criminal scumbag. Enhanced interrogation = torture. Shepard beat the sh*t out of him. Shepard is a cyborg. Shepard tortured a criminal scumbag for information. Thane said, "Shepard, ease off. He's no use to us dead." Torture is not equivalent to taking a human shield?
Shepard had a choice to let Elnora go and later find the evidence and turn it over to the police. She didn't draw the gun unless Shepard got aggressive.
Aresh had not real chance of restarting the Teltin facility. Get real. The place was a waste. Jack was going to blow it up. Killing insane people because they're insane is wrong. It was an execution. "A bullet in the head solves everything." You know that now.
You could get Miranda riled enough to shoot Niket by saying things like "I'd shoot him." It takes that line. Otherwise the merc kills him.
You're working for a terrorist organization. A known terrorist organization. Do you really want them to have the Collector Base? If you save it, you gave it to them. Merely working with them was a capital offense, but Anderson got the council to waive off that or waived it himself. I can only imagine what giving them a strategic asset amounts to. Treason?
Blowing up the relay didn't matter, did it? The reapers just poured through into Batarian space and had a bar-b-Que. They probably needed a fresh supply of reaper troops anyway. They might have stopped at Aratoth and they could have gone to Khar'shan anyway because cannibals. And how do you know they were really coming? Visions? I know metagaming because ME3 was coming out. And did the galaxy prepare? No. Would it have mattered? No. And then Shepard had this hallucination at the comm tower. What was that about? The Collector General? 300,000 people. What if Shepard was wrong? It was based on visions and the rantings of an insane scientist.
The nuke was STG's idea. It was there because explosions and you had to get rid of Kaidan.
Tela Vasir was one of the Council's top Spectres. She received commendations for her activities from her supervisor, Yalson Sao. (source - Cerberus Daily News) You judge her for Baria Frontiers, and for the hostage.
Don't you dare judge her without judging Shepard.
Aresh had not real chance of restarting the Teltin facility. Get real. The place was a waste. Jack was going to blow it up. Killing insane people because they're insane is wrong. It was an execution. "A bullet in the head solves everything." You know that now.
Sorry, jUliA, I've used up my 'likes' for the day I owe you one 
The bomb wasn't even Shepard's idea, it was the STG team. Frankly, I felt it would be better to just leave and come back with an actual army. I never understood the need for blowing it up that very second. Would an extra day really make that huge of a difference?
Virmire is bordering the Terminus systems so sending in a Council army might be politically dangerous, which is why STG was sent due to their discretion. I think the Council mentions that the Virmire is a sensible area and they do get mad at Shepard for setting the thing as it could possibly provoke whoever.
Some lesser decisions - well maybe one is pretty important. What would YOU do in a RL situation? No easy outs with the compromise wheel.
1) Merc - push out window or let him go
2) Rana Thanoptis - shoot or let go
3) Wrex on Virmire - Let Ash shoot or shoot him yourself or are you a good enough talker to talk him down?
4) Batarian Bartender - make him drink it OR make a scene OR chase him off (he has killed before)
5) AI Core - Side with Legion OR Side with Tali (no, you cannot compromise)
6) Miranda's Office - Side with Jack OR Side with Miranda - Argument was because Miranda wouldn't admit what Cerberus did to Jack was wrong. (no compromise)
7) Heretics - Rewrite OR Destroy
8) Tela Vasir - Thermal Clips on the ground OR Shoot the hostage - remember this is not a video game, so that shot has to be very very accurate, and you'd better have AP ammo equipped.
1. Merc out the window. I would prefer to knife him. Rather than leave him to possibly give way my position to his buds. But defenestration is okay.
2. Let go. Mostly harmless. Had bigger fish to fry.
3. Talk him down.
4. Make him drink it. Lone Specter in the most lawless station in the sector. Oh yeah, try to poison me? You will respect my author-rit-tay!
5. Side with Tali.
6. I ended up telling them both to STFU! They could kill each other after the mission.
7. Rewrite. If Legion did not have a problem with it then neither did I.
8. Round through the hostage. Shep is 'renegon'. Collateral damage to be avoided when possible but acceptable to save self, team, mission.
Here's the thing for me - in a way Shep has it too easy to come off as a hero. All the NPC ass kissing and the fact most everyone you come up against happens to be a villain rather than just a person with conflicting interests stops you from having to feel bad about 95% of decisions, depending on the exact flow of your playthrough to a degree, obviously. The Genophage and killing Mordin are an exception, and even then a certain set of choices lets you come out of that guilty conscience-free.
I get that this is Mass Effect and it's not trying to be like the Witcher or something, but the fact that renegade even exists shows that necessary harshness and sacrifice is a part of the whole theme. But not much of what we can do as Shep is ever shown in such a light as Vasir's actions, so it's cool that she turns around and does just that. Because working with Cerberus given what they've done is a pretty big deal given how much you help them out along the way. The Collector operation and all the missions and sidequests leading up to it put a heap of intel, resources and technology in Cerberus' hands and enables them to go on a rampage of kidnapping, mutilation, murder and general dickery that costs hundreds or thousands of lives, even if it wasn't Shep's intention for the Base to fall into their hands (and despite all that I still think handing them the Base was the right decision at the time, out of the choices we got anyway). It's not as personally cruel as taking a hostage, but Vasir was backed into a corner and did what she had to to get her job done, exactly what Shepard has done in numerous ways over the trilogy. Only when someone calls Shep out on it we get to give them some grandiose speech or snarky one liner about how it had to be done and they're portrayed as fools while Shep is the big goddamn hero.
Here's another one - blowing the lid off Purgatory prison. Was that really the only way Shepard could get out of the Warden's hands? He gets loads of guards killed and at least one serial murdering inmate set loose, probably many more than that. But of course the Warden is arbitrarily dickish to us, and the guards are Blue Suns, so we don't have to feel bad.
Mass Effect really needed more points of failure in my opinion - or maybe more points where decisions you make come back to bite you in unexpected ways.
I guess the only real example of that is sabotaging the cure with Wrex.
Here's another one - blowing the lid off Purgatory prison. Was that really the only way Shepard could get out of the Warden's hands? He gets loads of guards killed and at least one serial murdering inmate set loose, probably many more than that. But of course the Warden is arbitrarily dickish to us, and the guards are Blue Suns, so we don't have to feel bad.
Let's not forget that Kuril intended to hold shep there and ransom him off. Kuril had the place on lockdown, and the only way to get Jack out was to open all the cells. Here might've been a good place for an engineer-specific interrupt, or maybe if EDI was already a sexbot and not a sextoy -- they could've located Jack's specific lockdown code and released only her before Kuril's reinforcements arrived.
But it didn't happen that way, so Jack and everyone else got loose and rioted, and shep had to fight his way out. Sh*t happens.
Mass Effect really needed more points of failure in my opinion - or maybe more points where decisions you make come back to bite you in unexpected ways.
I guess the only real example of that is sabotaging the cure with Wrex.
Rana Thanoptis. Let her go on Virmire and she turns into a suicide bomber.
Let's not forget that Kuril intended to hold shep there and ransom him off. Kuril had the place on lockdown, and the only way to get Jack out was to open all the cells. Here might've been a good place for an engineer-specific interrupt, or maybe if EDI was already a sexbot and not a sextoy -- they could've located Jack's specific lockdown code and released only her before Kuril's reinforcements arrived.
But it didn't happen that way, so Jack and everyone else got loose and rioted, and shep had to fight his way out. Sh*t happens.
Rana Thanoptis. Let her go on Virmire and she turns into a suicide bomber.
Rana - Zaeed said that was going to come back and bite you in the ass.
Rana - Zaeed said that was going to come back and bite you in the ass.
He needs to work on his timing, though. He tells you that when you can't do anything about it.
Shepard didn't threaten a criminal scumbag. Enhanced interrogation = torture. Shepard beat the sh*t out of him. Shepard is a cyborg. Shepard tortured a criminal scumbag for information. Thane said, "Shepard, ease off. He's no use to us dead." Torture is not equivalent to taking a human shield?
Shepard had a choice to let Elnora go and later find the evidence and turn it over to the police. She didn't draw the gun unless Shepard got aggressive.
Aresh had not real chance of restarting the Teltin facility. Get real. The place was a waste. Jack was going to blow it up. Killing insane people because they're insane is wrong. It was an execution. "A bullet in the head solves everything." You know that now.
You could get Miranda riled enough to shoot Niket by saying things like "I'd shoot him." It takes that line. Otherwise the merc kills him.
You're working for a terrorist organization. A known terrorist organization. Do you really want them to have the Collector Base? If you save it, you gave it to them. Merely working with them was a capital offense, but Anderson got the council to waive off that or waived it himself. I can only imagine what giving them a strategic asset amounts to. Treason?
Blowing up the relay didn't matter, did it? The reapers just poured through into Batarian space and had a bar-b-Que. They probably needed a fresh supply of reaper troops anyway. They might have stopped at Aratoth and they could have gone to Khar'shan anyway because cannibals. And how do you know they were really coming? Visions? I know metagaming because ME3 was coming out. And did the galaxy prepare? No. Would it have mattered? No. And then Shepard had this hallucination at the comm tower. What was that about? The Collector General? 300,000 people. What if Shepard was wrong? It was based on visions and the rantings of an insane scientist.
The nuke was STG's idea. It was there because explosions and you had to get rid of Kaidan.
Tela Vasir was one of the Council's top Spectres. She received commendations for her activities from her supervisor, Yalson Sao. (source - Cerberus Daily News) You judge her for Baria Frontiers, and for the hostage.
Don't you dare judge her without judging Shepard.
He was still a fairly big-time criminal scum bag. Torturing him to get information is not the same as holding an innocent civilian hostage to save your own ass.
She was a murderer, not innocent. Plus she still drew her gun, it doesn't matter what Shepard's attitude is.
I never said he did. I didn't condone killing him or say it was right, I'm just saying that it isn't a clear-cut case. He's insane and is trying to start up a facility to torture children.
Niket sold out Miranda and was helping someone kidnap a daughter from her family. I wouldn't call that innocent.
Saving the base is the best option. Shepard didn't know that Cerberus was going to go crazy and start helping the reapers. At the time they were the ONLY ones doing jack **** about the reaper threat. Besides, you have the IFF. You could give it to the Alliance and send them in to get it. Sure, that doesn't happen, but we need to base the decision off of what we know at the time, not what we know in the future. There are legit reasons for saving the base just as there are legit concerns for wanting it destroyed (other than compromising who you are). It isn't a clear-cut case.
Yes, it did matter. If you are unaware of the significance of the Alpha Relay you must not paid close enough attention.
Yes, it was the STG's idea. I believe I said as much. Coincidentally, I get rid of Ashley.
I'm sorry, does her past history make up for blowing up a building full of people and taking an innocent woman hostage to save her own ass? I wasn't aware of that. With that in mind I guess you also have to completely forgive Shepard for all his shady business because he saved the citadel. Saren's probably done some good deeds in the past aswell sine he was a top spectre, guess that means we have no right to judge the things he did either.
I never said I didn't judge Shepard. I'll quote something I said earlier:
"She's judging Shepard because of the deeds CERBERUS has done in the past. Where as Shepard can judge her personally for the deeds she just committed herself. I'm not saying there aren't things that Shepard could or should be judged for, only that her examples were not really a fair comparison to herself. She judges him because of the stuff Cerberus has done, he judges her for what she herself did. Not the same cup of tea."
Virmire is bordering the Terminus systems so sending in a Council army might be politically dangerous, which is why STG was sent due to their discretion. I think the Council mentions that the Virmire is a sensible area and they do get mad at Shepard for setting the thing as it could possibly provoke whoever.
Yeah but even the STG requested the Alliance send in a fleet. So really, both the nuke and the idea of sending in a fleet all come from the STG. If anyone should be judged for the nuke shouldn't it be the STG that planned the whole thing?
Here's the thing for me - in a way Shep has it too easy to come off as a hero. All the NPC ass kissing and the fact most everyone you come up against happens to be a villain rather than just a person with conflicting interests stops you from having to feel bad about 95% of decisions, depending on the exact flow of your playthrough to a degree, obviously. The Genophage and killing Mordin are an exception, and even then a certain set of choices lets you come out of that guilty conscience-free.
I get that this is Mass Effect and it's not trying to be like the Witcher or something, but the fact that renegade even exists shows that necessary harshness and sacrifice is a part of the whole theme. But not much of what we can do as Shep is ever shown in such a light as Vasir's actions, so it's cool that she turns around and does just that. Because working with Cerberus given what they've done is a pretty big deal given how much you help them out along the way. The Collector operation and all the missions and sidequests leading up to it put a heap of intel, resources and technology in Cerberus' hands and enables them to go on a rampage of kidnapping, mutilation, murder and general dickery that costs hundreds or thousands of lives, even if it wasn't Shep's intention for the Base to fall into their hands (and despite all that I still think handing them the Base was the right decision at the time, out of the choices we got anyway). It's not as personally cruel as taking a hostage, but Vasir was backed into a corner and did what she had to to get her job done, exactly what Shepard has done in numerous ways over the trilogy. Only when someone calls Shep out on it we get to give them some grandiose speech or snarky one liner about how it had to be done and they're portrayed as fools while Shep is the big goddamn hero.
Here's another one - blowing the lid off Purgatory prison. Was that really the only way Shepard could get out of the Warden's hands? He gets loads of guards killed and at least one serial murdering inmate set loose, probably many more than that. But of course the Warden is arbitrarily dickish to us, and the guards are Blue Suns, so we don't have to feel bad.
I wouldn't call blowing up a building full of civilians, shooting those that try to escape and taking an innocent woman hostage as a shield as being 'exactly what Shepard has done". I also, again, never said there weren't things to judge Shepard for. I was saying that the things Vasir spouts at him are insufficient justification to counter herself being judged. She doesn't call Shepard out on the **** HE has done. She calls him out on the stuff Cerberus has done. She judges him because of Cerberus (sounds familiar to a certain someone on Horizon) whereas Shepard can judge her for the things SHE has done.
"You blew up a building full of innocent people!"
"Yeah, so, Cerberus has done bad things!"
Instead of throwing any kind of judgement really on Shepard or mentioning some of the shady **** SHEPARD has done, all she has to complain about is stuff Cerberus did. She is judging Shepard for what exactly? Working with them? All her judgement is really going towards Cerberus, really. Everything she brings up are things CERBERUS did, not Shepard. The thing's Shepard can bring up are things VASIR did. If she wants to go "don't judge me because you're no saint" she should at least criticize the things Shepard has done and not focus squarely on some terrorist organization that Shepard potentially hates working for but is forced to do so.
Considering how quick everyone else is on here to judge Shepard I'm surprised I'm the only one who feels that judging him just for Cerberus is insignificant. I can think of much better things to judge Shepard for, personally, rather than saying Shepard is bad because of the actions of some terrorist organization. It was a lame justification and seemed like she was just fishing for excuses to redeem herself.
Rana Thanoptis. Let her go on Virmire and she turns into a suicide bomber.
Yeah but we only get this in the codex and a slight hit to our EMS scores. It doesn't really FEEL like a real negative consequence. Nothing compared to having to kill Wrex.
"I... know... what you... did!"
Saving the Rachni clone had more impact than Rana, imo.
The fact that Kelham was a criminal doesn't excuse torture. Sure he hired Kolyat to do a hit on Talid, but torture doesn't work. He could have given Shepard the wrong information to make it stop, but because this is a video game he didn't. Shepard also has the option of killing Talid to end the stand off with no consequence.
Shepard's attitude does matter. That was some pretty good slight of hand by Elnora to get that weapon off the floor and holster it on her back while Shepard was in the room without making a sound. LOL. And drawing the weapon like that was pretty stupid when it appeared that Shepard might let her go. 3:1 odds and someone like Zaeed in the party? Hardly good odds of survival. Then this was a video game and ME2. Stupidity reigns. I'll give you this one.
But Aresh? You know it's okay to admit that you're wrong about this. It is a pretty clear cut case to me. Let him go or take him to a facility where he can get help.
Niket wasn't innocent, but does he deserve death? All you have to go on is Miranda's word about things. You know nothing about Henry Lawson. Miranda took Oriana from her father. The mission should have been called "Daddy Issues."
The Base. You didn't give the base to the Alliance, though. You gave it to Cerberus. You told The Illusive Man to use it to stop the reapers. Cerberus is a known terrorist organization that has a history of giving us tomorrow's problems today. You can't whitewash this.
I know the significance of the Alpha Relay. What I was saying is that the only reason you knew for a fact that the reapers were indeed doing that end run to that relay was that ME3 was coming out, and that the tweets had said that "the reapers started moving there after the battle of the citadel." It was metagaming. Shepard had only visions and rantings of an insane scientist. There was no concrete proof. It was an act of faith. Blow up the relay and stop the invasion. So 300,000 die.
But the Alliance was going to blow it up anyway. Hackett sent in the marines to do it if Shepard didn't do it. Did it really have to do with the reapers? Or was it just a test to see what happened if a relay blew up, and Shepard working for Cerberus, was a perfect patsy for the job? The reaper business being secondary and all that.
My point is that both Vasir and Shepard did bad things. Bioware had to use the general Cerberus judgement because not everyone's Shepard did all the bad things. Otherwise, she could easily point fingers if she had access to the same information. They're really not much different.
Shep is not above sacrificing civilians. Look at Zaeed's loyalty mission for example.
No loss of ems when Rana kills a bunch of individuals
He needs to work on his timing, though. He tells you that when you can't do anything about it.
The scene could play the same as Elnora when recruiting Samara except Rana doesn't draw a weapon on Shepard
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