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Romance - what a let down...


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#251
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This sounds like an oversimplification of the issue at hand. No one is stopping you from voicing your opinion. Having said that, you can't stop others from responding with their opinions. It's a cyclical thing.

Beyond that, some opinions can be wrong. Not wrong as in factually, but wrong as in - for lack of a better word - morally.

And each story has its own unique morals.

The moral of this particular story, the story in which we have female characters who do not meet the status quo (female characters that female players can better identify with and more readily idolize/respect) is that said fabricated characters hold as much value, if not more than, idealized beauties. Friendship value. Romance value. Plot value. They are intended to be valuable people, just as women in the real world wish to be valued as equals. But that equality just isn't there yet, and it persists in ways that cut deep. It hurts our friends, our sisters, our mothers, our daughters. We've all known at least one woman who has been hurt in this way.

The characters are fabricated people, yes. They're just pixels and lines of dialogue, yes. But if they were, on the whole, considered *that* insignificant, then perhaps these threads would not exist.

I feel bad for people who are unable to see the problem - people who equate "ugly" with things like wrinkles, short hair, a lack of makeup, or the wrong body type. The people who are hooked on the idealism are the victims. They are victims of a social conditioning that taught each of us to devalue human beings (either gender) and treat them like things.

Once people are able to deprogram this kind of brainwashing, all the force fed plastic imagery and tropes that have plagued our eyes since the first time we gawked at a TV, then people will be more empowered. They'll no longer be the frustrated victims of a broken machine.

 

I have no problems with unconventional female love characters.

 

The problem I have with this is the fact that only straight males are getting this unconventional-ness. Not the straight female. Cassandra is a warrior and as such has scars to prove it. Yet Cullen who has been a Templar that has seen through plenty of shite looks like a male model with a 5'o clock shadow. Even Blackwall, who is a veteran lone wolf warrior has a well trimmed beard and a smooth face. Both of them are not realistic at all.  

 

I want equality across the board. If straight males are getting "realism" then so should the female romance options as well. I am questioning the hypocritical double standards at work. I am questioning the double standard that straight females can have their fantasy but straight males are somehow flawed and they have to be "fixed" and "deprogrammed" of their fantasies. 

 

This notion of wanting to control the fantasies of people on the basis of their gender is a form of thought control. People like you are essentially okay with women being able to fantasize however they like but want to impose restriction and "educate" them to fantasize in a certain way. Your way. This is dangerous, it leads down a a path where things never end well. 

 

However, I have not yet seen anyone here who is willing to address this. All they say or rather spew is some privilege nonsense, deprogramming crap, taking one for the team.

 

Has anyone actually bothered to address the elephant in the room which is:- "Why after all these years of making equal romance content and appeal for both sexes, have Bioware decided to practice double standard ? Why after all these years of equality, they decided to pander in the name of some nonsensical justice and guilt ?"


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#252
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I for one can't imagine how high one's standards must be in order to look at Cassandra and not see an incredibly gorgeous woman. Every time she comes on screen I just stare in awe.

Sorry you don't like any of the romances for straight men OP, but that sounds like entirely your problem. Better luck next time.

 

I would like to see the next Dragon Age game feature a male warrior that looks like Emile De Launcet that is over-the-top when it comes to matters of faith for the female character's love interest. 

 

Then when there is are complaints, I will just say what you have said here :- "I for one can't imagine how high women's standards must be in order to look at the warrior Emile and not see an incredibly gorgeous man. Every time he comes on screen I just stare in awe.

Sorry you don't like any of the romances for straight women, but that sounds like entirely your problem. Better luck next time."


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#253
Vylix

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I'm not quite sure how Josephine doesn't fit in as a more conventional option for males, She's smart, diplomatic and attractive. That said, I can agree with the male characters being too pretty, particularly Cullen and Blackwall. I think Solas is fine, he's bald, got a few scars but overall attractive. It suits him, as he's a scholar and not a close range fighter as well as elven. Iron bull looks his part, scars everywhere, one eye but generally badass. Cullen however has skin that is too.. perfect. Yes, he has a scar but the smoothness of his skin irked me and took me half the game to adjust to, especially due to his character's age. I don't know. it feels like they tried to make Cullen into Alistair 3.0 (2.0 being Anders in awakening.) in some senses, especially with initial awkward reaction to being flirted with. As for Blackwall, I find his beard ridiculous. I do not know anyone with a beard that straight and perfect. My dad's beards were always kind of shaggy and rugged even when he kept them trimmed nicely. My fiance's beard is short, but its curly as hell. Seriously. Does Blackwall have a hair straightener for his beard? Maybe some sort of potion or stray spell caused it?

 

That said, Im not certain its completely fair to complain about the NUMBER of romances in particular due to two of them being race locked (elf for solas and elf or human for cullen). Straight females wanting to play a dwarf or Qunari are stuck with two options. It would have been nice if there was a race locked option or two for males to keep the balance, but overall I want to chock this entire issue up to romance in general for Inquisition being less... Polished/in depth as previous games.



#254
Icegodleo

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Personally I have always liked either the dark and mysterious or the bubbly naive types. There are no characters at all who match my tastes in this game. While these characters are awesome for story, (Very battle prepared/serious/determined) as the game kind of pushes, this really is no time for romance or love. My elf mage will most likely court josephine simply to see what it is like and my qunari warrior will have to remain content with JILL.



#255
Guest_Master Lavellan_*

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I have no problems with unconventional female love characters.

The problem I have with this is the fact that only straight males are getting this unconventional-ness. Not the straight female. ?"


I'm a hetero woman and I opted to play as a man and explore all the options given to a male inquisitor. I am more intrigued by the options given to a male protagonist.

And a female inquisitor is capable of romancing Josephine, thus the "straight man" shares his options with gay women.

And for the record, my girlfriend is a lesbian and she's pretty sad that Cassandra isn't available as a lesbian option. The grass is always greener.

#256
Battlebloodmage

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I'm a hetero woman and I opted to play as a man and explore all the options given to a male inquisitor. I am more intrigued by the options given to a male protagonist.

And a female inquisitor is capable of romancing Josephine, thus the "straight man" shares his options with gay women.

And for the record, my girlfriend is a lesbian and she's pretty sad that Cassandra isn't available as a lesbian option. The grass is always greener.

Tell me about it, really sad I can't romance Cullen. 



#257
TheJediSaint

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The grass is always greener.


As a straight dude who romanced Cass, I can tell you that the grass is pretty green over here.

#258
Katari

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I know I would have liked at least one more Hetero love interest for males.  I mean Females get 6 LIs in total while Males only get 4.  Also the fact that females get a character (Cullen) that is classically good looking while males get Cassandra and Josephine who are clear examples of Bioware purposely giving characters more "character" in their faces makes things kind of uneven.  I mean, I'll end up romancing both of them.  They've both grown on me in terms of their personalities and look better than they did in stills.  However, I would have preferred a love interest like Scout Harding.  I'm actually confused as to why it seems like they built up a romance with Harding and then dropped it right after you have a conversation with her about it.  I'd like some resolution to it eventually in the form of a DLC or patch.  It just seems unfinished.



#259
Uccio

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here we go again
some people just can't move on Morrigan and Leliana were great sure but get over your obsession and then you will see that Cassandra and
Josephine are very good romance options (can't choose between them)


As far as I understood Josephine is not a romance. You only get to stay in friend zone with her, no candy for you. This was said by one of the devs. So only one romance for straight male gamers.
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#260
Corto81

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I'm a hetero guy.

 

I'm thinking of romancing Dorian. Like, seriously, he's interesting and much better developed than Cass or Josie.

 

The moment I think Cass might be interesting, I get to hear some more religious zealotry and get bored and lose interest.


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#261
Vylix

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As far as I understood Josephine is not a romance. You only get to stay in friend zone with her, no candy for you. This was said by one of the devs. So only one romance for straight male gamers.

 


Lesbian gamers only have one romance option then, and that's Sera.

Sera.

I'd take Cassandra over Sera any day.



#262
Katari

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As far as I understood Josephine is not a romance. You only get to stay in friend zone with her, no candy for you. This was said by one of the devs. So only one romance for straight male gamers.

That's not true though.  I mean, I don't know myself however the DA wiki definitely lists her as a bi romanceable.

 

http://dragonage.wik...phine_Montilyet

http://dragonage.wik...e_(Inquisition)



#263
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Tell me about it, really sad I can't romance Cullen. 

 

I pine for Dorian.

 

Lets all just have a swap meet.


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#264
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As far as I understood Josephine is not a romance. You only get to stay in friend zone with her, no candy for you. This was said by one of the devs. So only one romance for straight male gamers.

 

This is true. The developers made her romance into a Disney princess romance. In every meaning of the word.

 

Her romance has you trying to flirt with a woman who cannot get your drift throughout almost 80% of the game (even though she is a diplomat and I have known enough diplomats for them to know that they understand when someone is flirting with them) which is then followed with you duelling (sort of) her suitor in the streets of Val Royeaux before she comes and breaks it up. The romance then culminates in Josephine and the Inquisitor sitting in front of a fireplace and they just kiss and do nothing else. 

 

So yeah, it is a friendzone of sorts with no candy for the Inquisitor. Bioware seemed to have forgotten that they are making a mature game and Disney princess are kids stuff. 

 

Which does mean that the male Inquisitor is left with one other romance, Cassandra. A romance that involves the Inquisitor chasing her like a blind puppy dog, having to agree with everything from her delirious adherence to faith, her lack of sense (she likes to just charge in without thinking) and her poor taste in literature (the books she likes are the 50 Shades of Grey equivalent) and then, finally, maybe, she lets down her walls and accepts the male Inquisitor as a lover...

 

Both the romances are frankly disgusting for the simple reason both do not culminate in an equal relationship. Both are in fact, very terribly one sided. In both cases, the Inquisitor has to be the one to take the plunge by flirting, often receiving rejection or just being ignored. The Inquisitor then have to concur with pretty much everything one of them does. The Inquisitor once again has to give gifts and hope he gets accepted, thanks to the lack of a relationship meter. 

 

In both cases, the love interest are like some metaphorical goddess receiving their male worshipers. Its pathetic. Neither Cassandra nor Josephine try to even initiate something or change their tone to the male Inquisitor should their approval of him increase. Neither Cassandra nor Josephine give the Inquisitor any gifts of any form. It was pretty much a one way street.

 

Contrast this with DAO where there was some form of two way relationship dynamic going on. Morrigan tries to initiate something with the Warden, she gives him a ring later, she even becomes very girlish. Leliana will become very sweet talking, starts fumbling for words and will actually be the first one to confess her feelings for you if you let it be so. She does not give you a ring but she will have more stories to tell and if hardened, you and her can get into threesomes or foursomes. 

 

In fact, I would go as far as to say that the romance for the male Inquisitor in DAI is very much like the romances in many TV and movies these days, where the guy is the bumbling fool who has to do all the hard work and the woman is like some goddess who then accepts or rejects his love which at this point nothing but blind worship.

 

The straight male romances in this game appeal to white knights and traditional conservative chivalrous men who are happy to be blind worshipers. For a man with self respect and wants an equal relationship with a woman, they will find this disgusting. 


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#265
Hanako Ikezawa

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As far as I understood Josephine is not a romance. You only get to stay in friend zone with her, no candy for you. This was said by one of the devs. So only one romance for straight male gamers.

Didn't realizing having sex was a requirement for one to be in a romantic relationship.  


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#266
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Didn't realizing having sex was a requirement for one to be in a romantic relationship.  

 

Uh...

 

Wow? I uh....wow.

 

Holy crap I can't even formulate a response to this.....do I need therapy or something? Is there something wrong with me cause I like it if my toes curl when I'm with someone special?



#267
Hanako Ikezawa

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This is true. The developers made her romance into a Disney princess romance. In every meaning of the word.

 

Her romance has you trying to flirt with a woman who cannot get your drift throughout almost 80% of the game (even though she is a diplomat and I have known enough diplomats for them to know that they understand when someone is flirting with them) which is then followed with you duelling (sort of) her suitor in the streets of Val Royeaux before she comes and breaks it up. The romance then culminates in Josephine and the Inquisitor sitting in front of a fireplace and they just kiss and do nothing else. 

 

So yeah, it is a friendzone of sorts with no candy for the Inquisitor. Bioware seemed to have forgotten that they are making a mature game and Disney princess are kids stuff. 

So just because the diplomats you know understand when they are being flirted towards means every single diplomat does?

 

Again, sex is not a pre-requisite for considering a relationship to be a romantic one. 

 

Also, I disagree at the notion that Disney Princess stories being just for kids. Some of those stories can be very mature and/or dark when you really look at them.

 

 

Uh...

 

Wow? I uh....wow.

 

Holy crap I can't even formulate a response to this.....do I need therapy or something? Is there something wrong with me cause I like it if my toes curl when I'm with someone special?

I am saying people can be in a romance with each other without sex being involved. I never said having sex in a relationship was wrong. 


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#268
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Uh...

 

Wow? I uh....wow.

 

Holy crap I can't even formulate a response to this.....do I need therapy or something? Is there something wrong with me cause I like it if my toes curl when I'm with someone special?

 

This is my response to Kallen as well. 

 

Male-female sexual relations are, at its core, a form of business transaction. It is a give and take process with reproduction and sexual intercourse as its end goal. 

 

Let's examine Josephine's romance arc shall we ?

 

Inquisitor

 

-Has to flirt at every turn with Josephine throughout the game.

-Has to get into a duel, a potentially life threatening scenario with another man to woo her.

-Has to openly announce his love for Josephine in public or risk being publicly humiliated by Josephine's rejection.

 

Josephine

 

-Gives the Inquisitor a few kisses.

 

You see the problem here ?

 

Josephine gives almost nothing to an Inquisitor who has to do all these things and take all the risks of relationship initiation and love proposal. That or Josephine's kisses are somehow equal in worth to what the Inquisitor has to do to obtain them. 

 

The least Josephine could have done as commensurate compensation is have sexual intercourse with the Inquisitor. 

 

You would have to be a massive blind tool to not see that Josephine's romance is extremely one sided, it borders along friendzone. 


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#269
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I think I'm just going to friend zone everyone cause it seems an acceptable course of action, I can still do their loyalty quests and make them really good friends after all.

 

Plus when I think about it, my female human mage world state is one that is definitely a case of preferring to be guarded and guided by a strong hand, based on her acceptance of her Circle upbringing. Since the only Templar in the group is Cullen...who is decidedly bashful about all matters relating to underclothes that leaves The Bull and The Bull, while dominant...forces a degradation of the character by turning her into a sloot in the process....whereas shes not a sloot, she just prefers to be controlled.

 

Its not rocket science I swear.



#270
Hanako Ikezawa

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This is my response to Kallen as well. 

 

Male-female sexual relations are, at its core, a form of business transaction. It is a give and take process with reproduction and sexual intercourse as its end goal. 

 

Let's examine Josephine's romance arc shall we ?

 

Inquisitor

 

-Has to flirt at every turn with Josephine throughout the game.

-Has to get into a duel, a potentially life threatening scenario with another man to woo her.

-Has to openly announce his love for Josephine in public or risk being publicly humiliated by Josephine's rejection.

 

Josephine

 

-Gives the Inquisitor a few kisses.

 

You see the problem here. Josephine gives almost nothing to an Inquisitor who has to do all these things and take all the risks of relationship initiation and love proposal.

 

You would have to be a massive blind tool to not see that Josephine's romance is extremely one sided, it borders along friendzone. 

That has absolutely nothing to do with my disagreeing with Ukki and you that sex has to be involved for it to be considered a romance rather than a friend-zoning as you call it. It isn't a sexual relationship, it is a romantic one. Those things can be mutually exclusive. People can have a sexual relationship with no romantic feelings involved. People can be in a romantic relationship without sex being involved.

 

And no, reproduction and sexual intercourse is not the only end goal to a relationship. That is quite frankly insulting to the millions of people like asexuals or those without sex drives who have romantic relationships without ever wanting sex, those who cannot have children for whatever reason, or those whom sex is not required for the end goal of their relationship, for example marriage. Are they just being friend-zoned or are friend-zoning their partner? The answer is no. 

 

Also, Josephine gives tons for you and your organization. Every waking moment she isn't with you she is making alliances, keeping your allies happy, keeping you fed and warm, paying your bills, etc for you. As for your specific points:

 

1) Not everyone gets flirting. I don't for example. Neither do tens to hundreds of millions of other people. 

2) She never asks you to do that. She wanted to go through other channels to annul the engagement so you two could be together without you risking to get hurt. That alone shows that she is doing things for the relationship since she was working on that up until the moment she hears that you are going to duel, in which she rushes to stop it from happening so you don't get hurt.

3) She announces it in public as well so I don't get how that is one-sided. 

 

So no, I don't see the problem with the romance. And insulting people by calling them a massive blind tool for disagreeing with your opinion is not a good way to support your side. 


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#271
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Because straight guys want more options threads are being made like twice a day, people are just getting sick of hearing about it so often. I think in a lot of the cases, the person who want options only want it to themselves, it's the I get what I want screwed everyone else's mentality. Straight guys got the same number as gays and lesbians while females have double, but why not wanting to give more options for other groups, too, instead of just their groups? 

Ah, well, brand new here so I missed the drama.

 

Dunno why theyd want less gays/bis or whatever. More options for all!

 

Or just give us a toolset, srsly anyone heard if thats on the way? 



#272
Hanako Ikezawa

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Ah, well, brand new here so I missed the drama.

 

Dunno why theyd want less gays/bis or whatever. More options for all!

 

Or just give us a toolset, srsly anyone heard if thats on the way? 

Welcome to the forums. ^_^

 

Don't get your hopes up about a released toolset. DAI is on the Frostbite engine, so is the property of EA, specifically DICE. And they have made it clear that they have no desire to provide a toolset for the engine. 



#273
Uccio

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That has absolutely nothing to do with my disagreeing with Ukki and you that sex has to be involved for it to be considered a romance rather than a friend-zoning as you call it. It isn't a sexual relationship, it is a romantic one. Those things can be mutually exclusive. People can have a sexual relationship with no romantic feelings involved. People can be in a romantic relationship without sex being involved.

 

You might call it a romance, I don´t. For me having sex is part of the romance. Along with cuddling, kisses, hugs, gifts, etc yes. But, it is definitely a core function in a romance. You might not think so but I do. I would not stay with a person who is not willing to sleep with me. Eventually. And it has nothing to do with reproduction.


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#274
Bayonet Hipshot

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You might call it a romance, I don´t. For me having sex is part of the romance. Along with cuddling, kisses, hugs, gifts, etc yes. But, it is definitely a core function in a romance. You might not think so but I do. I would not stay with a person who is not willing to sleep with me. Eventually. And it has nothing to do with reproduction.

 

This. I should have worded my reply this way. I also expect my romance to have sex,cuddling,kisses,hugs,gifts in a two-way street. Dragon Age Inquisition does not do this at all, especially the two-way street part. 


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#275
staindgrey

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Ishten, I wanted to reply to this specific part of your post, which I think is outright incorrect based on my initial playthrough of DA:I.

 

In DAO, followers who are interested in your Warden will change their dialogue, attempt to initiate a relationship and give you gifts. Morrigan becomes girlishly cute, Leliana fumbles with her words, Zevran becomes more committed and Alistair becomes a hopeless romantic. Morrigan gives you a ring, Alistair a rose and Zevran gives you earrings. 

 

In DAI you Inquisitor has to do everything from flirting to romance initiation to gift giving. The romances felt awfully one sided. I thought Bioware set out to make them more realistic but they are not, the romances in the game turn out to be your being a hopeless puppy dog trying to please and flirt with a particular love interest and like some metaphorical god receiving their subjects' adoration, at some point, they accept your romance advances.

For safety's sake, I'll explain in a spoiler tag:

 

Spoiler

 

There. Got it out of my system.


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