450 réponses à ce sujet

[Tarvesh]

Not everyone enjoys roleplaying certain kinds of characters or genders though, so the idea that players should just play a gender they completely dislike for the sake of a romance is kind of unsympathetic. This is a game that takes quite a few hours to complete, so for me personally the idea of playing as a man and hating every second of dialogue doesn't sound like fun for me, and I wouldn't expect it to be fun for other people.

We like to see ourselves represented in our media in one way or another, that's why representation matters. It's just personally disappointing for me that Bioware has delivered 2 games in a row where I didn't like the romances. I don't expect Bioware to cater to me personally like I'm the only one that matters, I'm not that deluded, I just wish they would have done things different and hope they will do things differently in the future.

It is indeed an unsympathetic point. But it's also a true point. Your likes and dislikes are self imposed limitations on character interactions.

Bioware can't cater to everyone's preferences. That's impossible. So instead they offered us a gamut of choices.

Don't mistake my unsympathetic point for me being unsympathetic. I would have liked more straight male options as I typically play characters that look like me etc etc.

Vivienne would have made a fantastic LI. But she's not one. We just have to acknowledge that the only people who are limiting our choices are us.

I'm a straight male. But I play all sorts of genders with differing sexualizations because I like the different stories and options.

You may not. But that's you limiting you. Not Bioware limiting you.

[Ailith Tycane]

Your comment and several others like it support my contention that all the romanceables should be bi. 

 

I have mixed feelings about this. By this point Bioware knows they can't please everyone no matter what they do; make everyone bi, people complain it's not realistic, give everyone defined sexualitites and people are inevitably not going to get the romance they truly wanted. 

 

I'm not sure what is best.

[Uccio]

Hey, everyone remember the romance alloted for female in that Baldur's gate game?

 

 

Remember that one option?

 

I don't even think it was in the first game...

 

I remember, my female elf mage wanted to slap that templar across the face but then realized he was the only LI option.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

It is indeed an unsympathetic point. But it's also a true point. Your likes and dislikes are self imposed limitations on character interactions.

Bioware can't cater to everyone's preferences. That's impossible. So instead they offered us a gamut of choices.

Don't mistake my unsympathetic point for me being unsympathetic. I would have liked more straight male options as I typically play characters that look like me etc etc.

Vivienne would have made a fantastic LI. But she's not one. We just have to acknowledge that the only people who are limiting our choices are us.

I'm a straight male. But I play all sorts of genders with differing sexualizations because I like the different stories and options.

You may not. But that's you limiting you. Not Bioware limiting you.

Considering she

Spoiler

poisons her lover who she apparently had genuine feelings for in order to gain a bit more power and influence, I'm not so sure how fantastic she'd be.

 

I have mixed feelings about this. By this point Bioware knows they can't please everyone no matter what they do; make everyone bi, people complain it's not realistic, give everyone defined sexualitites and people are inevitably not going to get the romance they truly wanted. 

 

I'm not sure what is best.

It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of thing. I didn't mind having all bisexual LIs, but I also don't mind the way they did it this time, even though I wish Bull had been straight and either Cullen or Blackwall has been bisexual. Ultimately, they're better of just doing what they think is best and ignoring undue complaints.

[Ailith Tycane]

It is indeed an unsympathetic point. But it's also a true point. Your likes and dislikes are self imposed limitations on character interactions.

Bioware can't cater to everyone's preferences. That's impossible. So instead they offered us a gamut of choices.

Don't mistake my unsympathetic point for me being unsympathetic. I would have liked more straight male options as I typically play characters that look like me etc etc.

Vivienne would have made a fantastic LI. But she's not one. We just have to acknowledge that the only people who are limiting our choices are us.

I'm a straight male. But I play all sorts of genders with differing sexualizations because I like the different stories and options.

You may not. But that's you limiting you. Not Bioware limiting you.

 

Well I'm not sure what to say to that, other than okay? I've been playing video games since I was 2 and all I ever saw for most of that time was straight white males in straight white relationships. I am only one of those things, so the lack of representation was frustrating, and today is still frustrating. I don't tolerate people telling me to just play as a man for the sake of X just as I don't tolerate people telling men to just play as women for the sake of X. If they are given the choice then they should play whatever they want to without this idea that they're a bad person or a bad roleplayer because they can't tolerate over 100 hours of gameplay as a gender they dislike playing as. 

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Well I'm not sure what to say to that, other than okay? I've been playing video games since I was 2 and all I ever saw for most of that time was straight white males in straight white relationships. I am only one of those things, so the lack of representation was frustrating, and today is still frustrating. I don't tolerate people telling me to just play as a man just as I don't tolerate people telling men to just play as women. If they are given the choice then they should play whatever they want to without this idea that they're a bad person or a bad roleplayer because they can't tolerate over 100 hours of gameplay as a gender they dislike playing as. 

I don't really feel like that's congruent. There's a difference between not having any options to be yourself and having options to be yourself that you don't like.

[Ailith Tycane]

I don't really feel like that's congruent. There's a difference between not having any options to be yourself and having options to be yourself that you don't like.

 

I am aware, and again I don't expect Bioware to cater to just me personally, I just think Cassandra was a gigantic missed opportunity and I am not at all shy about letting Bioware know it. 

 

Also, speaking of representation, just food for thought, I would like to point out that Sera being a lesbian has absolutely no impact on her storyline at all. It almost has no impact on her romance either with the exception that she can't be romanced by men, she never even verbally brings it up. Meanwhile Dorian has an entire story line dedicated to the fact that he is gay and how it is a big part of who he is. I was not happy with that one sided-ness. 

[Steelcan]

the last thing DA needs is every gay LI having a side story about their sexuality

[Ailith Tycane]

the last thing DA needs is every gay LI having a side story about their sexuality

 

The point I was making is that even within the realm of gay representation in gaming, women are still taking a back seat, not that every gay character needs a side story about their sexuality. 

[ManleySteele]

If you are bending over backwards to romance a LI in any DA game, why? I never do anything out of character and I'm not going to start. If that means no romance, oh well. I guess this game is more realistic than I thought.

[Ailith Tycane]

If you are bending over backwards to romance a LI in any DA game, why? I never do anything out of character and I'm not going to start. If that means no romance, oh well. I guess this game is more realistic than I thought.

 

People will always argue it's not realistic in some way, ignoring the fact that people shoot fireballs from their hands, lol.

[Steelcan]

The point I was making is that even within the realm of gay representation in gaming, women are still taking a back seat, not that every gay character needs a side story about their sexuality. 

its not taking a backseat, it fits the lore

 

Sera is a nobody, no one cares who she loves while being a nobody, she will inherit no lands, nor is she heiress to a fortune.  Dorian is on the exact opposite spectrum.  There is much expected of him as the son of a magister, and heir to his position

[Steelcan]

People will always argue it's not realistic in some way, ignoring the fact that people shoot fireballs from their hands, lol.

this is always the worst argument to bring up

 

Just because the lore has dragons and magic it doesn't mean all of a sudden every semblance of realism can be thrown out

[Ailith Tycane]

its not taking a backseat, it fits the lore

 

Sera is a nobody, no one cares who she loves while being a nobody, she will inherit no lands, nor is she heiress to a fortune.  Dorian is on the exact opposite spectrum.  There is much expected of him as the son of a magister, and heir to his position

 

With the exception of some changed pronouns, I don't see how Sera's romance would have been especially different if she were available to male characters as a romance, and I can't say the same about Dorian's romance. The fact that he is gay was obviously thought out, where as Sera doesn't even have a dialogue asserting "Yeah I like women only." 

 

Trust me, that matters. It matters a lot. 

[Ailith Tycane]

this is always the worst argument to bring up

 

Just because the lore has dragons and magic it doesn't mean all of a sudden every semblance of realism can be thrown out

 

"Realism" is not what's important, what's important is that they make the rules of their universe and stick to them, as with any kind of fiction or fantasy. 

 

so arguing "realism" using OUR world as a basis is flawed. The point about the fireballs is to being awareness to the fact that we're talking about rules within a world that is imaginary and not our own. 

[Steelcan]

With the exception of some changed pronouns, I don't see how Sera's romance would have been especially different if she were available to male characters as a romance, and I can't say the same about Dorian's romance. The fact that he is gay was obviously thought out, where as Sera doesn't even have a dialogue asserting "Yeah I like women only." 

 

Trust me, that matters. It matters a lot. 

because they are different characters?  Dorian is fairly flamboyant in a lot of aspects of his life and his sexuality is relevant to his life because of his position and status, whereas for Sera it is not.  If she came out and said "Hey I like women not men" the collective reaction of Thedas would be "who gives a crap?"

[luism]

They did that in Dragon Age 2. People bitched about who it was unbelievable that so many characters were Bi and a lot of my fellow Straight Male Gamers whined alot about Anders attempting to flirt with them. 

It wasn't Anders in my case it was Fenris and the problem i had was him getting all butt hurt for me not giving him the butt hurt. I liked Fenris but I didn't like him that way.

[JohnstonMR]

Know what's even easier than cutting romances entirely? Ignoring the fanbase's demands and doing whatever you want to do. Hoping to see more of that. 

 

Agreed--even if that means *I* get short shrift sometimes.  Which I do.

[JohnstonMR]

Well I'm not sure what to say to that, other than okay? I've been playing video games since I was 2 and all I ever saw for most of that time was straight white males in straight white relationships. I am only one of those things, so the lack of representation was frustrating, and today is still frustrating. I don't tolerate people telling me to just play as a man for the sake of X just as I don't tolerate people telling men to just play as women for the sake of X. If they are given the choice then they should play whatever they want to without this idea that they're a bad person or a bad roleplayer because they can't tolerate over 100 hours of gameplay as a gender they dislike playing as. 

 

He never said that not feeling you can play other things makes you a bad roleplayer.  He merely made the point that the limitation is yours, not Bioware's.  

[Lady Artifice]

Right, remember how that was published 16 years and prior to publishing it, they'd only ever done a mech simulation game? Remember how Superman originally had sandals and couldn't fly? Remember when Batman used guns and wore purple gloves? Remember the first season of Family Matters when Urkle was an occasional guest character? Remember when Nintendo dealt exclusively in playing cards?

Early Installment weirdness doesn't count. This was before Bioware became what it's now known for. The fact is those game made efficient use of limited resources, but this game artificially restricts things and publishes the first unmoddable fantasy game they've ever released.

So what was your point.

 

 

Well, it wasn't to antagonize anyone. 

 

I've already said that I don't blame people who want another female option available to males. I certainly don't blame people who want more options in general. 

 

Edit: However, since you mention it, I suppose my point was that a similar resources issue was at play here. Bioware didn't set out to give female players a advantage when it came to options. We started out with as many as straight males...but then the date was pushed back, and they added romances that they thought they could make time for in story. 

 

I think Harding would have been great, but it does seem that they're chances of working scenes of her in would have been more challenging than doing so with Cullen and Solas. 

 

So...my point was that they're weren't deliberately putting any group at a disadvantage. They just worked with their resources.

[elearon]

Eh, just wanted to note that my female Inquisitor and Sera get along great - as it turns out, they couldn't have made a more perfect match for my ne-er do well - sucked into this Inquisition business against her will - rogue character.

[SpiritMuse]

It wasn't Anders in my case it was Fenris and the problem i had was him getting all butt hurt for me not giving him the butt hurt. I liked Fenris but I didn't like him that way.

 

Wait, Fenris went after you? How did that happen? 

[Lady Artifice]

This whole "Fenris got pissy about not being romanced" thing isn't a thing. It doesn't happen. He has one very subtle and awkward "come on" early on in the relationship, and there are no rivalry points gained for turning him down. It's up to Hawke to do almost all of the pursuing there. 

 

Anders is the only companion who shows resentment about not being romanced.

[King Dragonlord]

Well, it wasn't to antagonize anyone. 

 

I've already said that I don't blame people who want another female option available to males.

 

Edit: However, since you mention it, I suppose my point was that a similar resources issue was at play here. Bioware didn't set out to give female players a advantage when it came to options. We started out with as many as straight males...but then the date was pushed back, and they added romances that they thought they could make time for in story. 

 

I think Harding would have been great, but it does seem that they're chances of working scenes of her in would have been more challenging than doing so with Cullen and Solas. 

 

So...my point was that they're weren't deliberately putting any group at a disadvantage. They just worked with their resources.

 

I would agree. No intent, just how it worked out and its fine. I've no real objection to that in the base game though I draw the line at people here shaming straight men because they're disappointed. The industry may be weighed in favor of straight men still but this game is what matters to these people, or they wouldn't be in this forum. They don't necessarily play the entire triple A line up. I know I've been taking their side a lot but its only because the types of arguments being used against the OP in a lot of cases bug me. Frankly though, as I stated somewhere earlier in this thread, I don't want feminists doing this to my games, so when a game seems to favor women in some way inadvertently, I don't want guys shaming that either. We get into this thing were developers are dragged through the mud anytime any group is offended. 

 

My version of equality when we finally reach it is not one where every game is specifically weighted to address all demographics. That would be a nightmare. My vision would have games that happen to be weighted variously towards different demographics as the game design/story/creative vision calls for and that the balance would come when these games are viewed in aggregate.

 

And sorry for the edge in my last response. I've been bouncing around forums and some people have been using stock arguments, snippy responses and so forth. I misread that into your post. 

 

Though unless you just really want to do something where sexuality is important I'd favor all games making all romances bi in the future. 

[Lady Artifice]

 

 

And sorry for the edge in my last response. I've been bouncing around forums and some people have been using stock arguments, snippy responses and so forth. I misread that into your post. 

 

 

 

 

No problem. These threads bring out the edge in most of us. It's 'cause we care.