138 réponses à ce sujet

[Valmar]

And you can't shoot the pipe if you don't trust the catalyst. Well, you can actually but that's very illogical; you don't trust him but you're still doing what he's told.

 

 

It's a paradox isn't it? I see it brought up a lot, this argument where someone states they don't trust the starbrat and then proceed to destroy them. By choosing destroy you're putting your faith in the starbrat that destroying this seemingly important tube will somehow result in destroying the reapers rather than you just sabotaging key components with the crucible. If you REALLY don't trust the kid and base the decision squarely on the fact that you think he is lying to you then Refuse is the only option available to you.

 

Ironically though I'm guilty of this paradox aswell. My Shepard doesn't trust starbrat so doesn't believe in control or synthesis being possible yet still goes with destroy, apparently believing it enough to think it was telling the truth that for some reason destroying this tube will be a good thing. Or you know, I can just play with the ME Happy Ending Mod that removes the starbrat from the picture and just triggers the destroy ending after Anderson croaks.

 

There is so much cognitive dissonance with the ending its pitiful. Lol.

 

 

The reapers throughout the game state they have no beginning have no end. Lie. They can't be destroyed. Lie. There purpose is far to complex for organics to understand. The catalyst explained it ok.

 

The first two could be pointed at being more exaggeration than lie. Granted, they clearly DO have a beginning... but who really believed that literally in the first place? They'd have to be God to actually have no beginning or end, they'd have to exist outside the realm of space and time. Doctor Who **** going on there. I don't think we were meant to take it so literally. Same as saying they can't be destroyed. I don't think anyone really felt that was literally true, as it would tie in with them having  to be Gods, again. As for saying the purpose was too complex for organics to understand... I'd say it was speaking the truth on this one.

 

Seriously, most of the complaints and memes (you kill us to save us from being killed) that came from the ending clearly indicate that the majority of fans DIDN'T understand. Few people are able to understand the perspective and motives of the reapers. If more people actually understood it I doubt there would be so much hate in the first place. So when they say "it is not a thing you can comprehend" I don't think its too far off. Hell, not even Shepard seems capable of understanding that the reapers are more than just machines out to destroy us despite having it hammered to us throughout the game that its a harvest and that the reapers aren't just machines.

 

EDI actually goes out of her way to correct Shepard on this misconception during the suicide mission in the second game yet it doesn't seem to have actually clicked anything with him. Seriously sometimes I feel like smacking Shepard over the back of the head and yelling "pay attention!"

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Destroy all the way.

 

Put yourself in Shepard's boots for a moment, rather than thinking it about like the a player who knows that a sequel will never have any of the three ending choices result in mass extinction. Would you trust the megalomaniacal A.I. and his fleet of thousands of mass-murdering machines, responsible for the mass extinctions of perhaps thousands of sapients species, to embrace peace and protect galactic civilization rather than destroy it? 

 

I don't know about you, but in Shepard's boots I'd shoot the f-king tube before Glow Boy finished a single sentence.

 

Shepard's predefined character is largely that of a dim bulb who might very well think along such flawed lines of reasoning. Is that supposed to be compelling reason to choose Destroy? You could similarly find other unappealing traits of Shepard's predefined character that would fit Control or Sync, like the inexplicable death-wish he/she will voice from time to time, but it is not very convincing argument.

 

Honestly though, I actually did choose Red the first time, and again the second time. It never felt right. I do have some Shepards for whom that choice is the only one in-character for them, but for my main Shepard, the image of him scowling and rabidly shooting at some device just flew in the face of how he was portrayed up to that point (to me, this "portrayal" is a collaborative process, where both predefined traits and player input contribute the whole, the result of which can and will vary from player to player). When I finally switched to Green I... still hated the ending (pre-EC), but it was fitting and the feeling of Shepard acting OOC was finally gone.

[Revan Reborn]

High EMS Destroy. It's the only definitive ending with the issues of the Reapers resolved. Control is the de facto "evil" choice by becoming the new god, instead of the Catalyst. Synthesis is just dumb. Period. Not to mention creating a new type of reaper might not actually work and the implications of what would happen after that are unknown. Refuse is more practical than Synthesis.

[Valmar]

 

I think that was just Sovereign being arrogant and such. Least how I took it.

 

 

Exactly. Was it a lie? Yeah but... I mean really I don't think the writers really intended us to take him so literally on these statements. It was just arrogance and prideful boasting. So to see someone say the reapers have a history of lying to us and use THIS as an example... eh. Technically its a lie, sure, but we were not meant to take it so literally. If you don't take it so literally it isn't really much of a lie.

 

 

Correct. The Reapers are here to harvest us. They are not here to save us, kill us, or anything like that. There's actually a codex entry describing in detail what exactly Reaper harvesting is and how it works. Not sure if anyone read it though before doing the ending. I certainly did read it.

 

The whole merging organics with Reapers (synthesis, as EDI mentioned in ME2 Reapers are both organic and synthetic ) is something that I pretty much expected to happen ever since Harbinger uttered the words "we will bring your species into harmony with our own". This is essentially how the Reapers end the conflict with organics. Merge with them, everyone becomes Reapers, and the Reapers win.

 

Exactly... again. Personally I didn't read the codex the first time through so the ending was confusing to me. It was my failure to adequately view it in context to everything else. I had departmentalized the ending from the rest of the story. I viewed the last 15 minutes alone as the ending instead of bringing together all the pieces to the puzzle that have been set in place leading up to it. When viewed without the context of the rest of the trilogy, it makes no sense. It was only after I sat down and read through the wiki pages on reapers and the harvest did it all start to come together for me and gave me a new appreciation for the unique nature of the the enemy, the reapers; they're quite interesting and unique, imo. There are still things about the ending that I feel make no sense and am unsatisfied with... I just don't see the reaper's motivations as being one of those things.

[Valmar]

A lot of the confusing stuff can be explained by playing the previous games. Seems not all the answers are given in ME3. Like, the Reapers being a hybrid race of organic and synthetic. One would need to play ME2 to find this out. If they just played ME3 they wouldn't know this.

 

While I have to agree that this was greatly brought to light in the second game it is also mentioned or in the very least hinted at in the third game with the codex entries about the reapers and the harvest. Even the story brings it up a few times. The leviathan DLC seems to have been made for the sole purpose of adding context to the reapers, the starbrat and the harvest for example. Plus Legion flat out tells you that a reaper mind is like billions or organic minds all linked together. The difference is that a fairly significant part of the plot in ME2 revolved around these revelations so it was more noticeable while as in ME3 you had to sort of look for this information in some cases.

 

I don't necessarily think one would have to play ME2 to make this connection. Though given how many people HAVE played the trilogy and yet still don't understand these details should be pretty telling. 

 

 

Or other things like, some didn't like the route the Illusive Man took in the third game (indoctrinated Reaper puppet), but the whole husk conversion process was hinted at in the second game and brought to light in the third game. It was said way back in 2011 that TIM was going to be indoctrinated by the Reapers and that's why Cerberus played such a big role in the third game, because it's not only the Reapers who want Shepard's head.

 

 

Lets not forget the novels and comics that were telling us about this stuff before ME3 was even out.

 

 

 

So to me, all the pieces fit, and nothing really about the ending felt out of place.

 

On that we disagree. I don't think I'm ever going to be satisfied with the starbrat - even in light of the Leviathan dlc that tries so hard to make it fit. Though this more of a emotional response than anything else. Its my biggest gripe with the ending.

[ImaginaryMatter]

My main thing with TIM was that he was in ME3 at all; especially in such an overbearing roll.

 

I think they should have limited him and Cerberus to one or, maybe, two missions to wrap up that ME2 arc.

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

Leviathan tells you that the Intelligence is Harbinger. He makes no mention of the Catalyst.

 

Catalyst: ...an intelligence created eons ago to solve a problem.

Leviathan: From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it...Harbinger.

Shepard (select "Intelligence" dialogue): You built that machine....

 

You were talking to Harbinger the entire time. Enemies taking different forms is nothing new to sci-fi. Hell, the real Leviathan looks like an organic Reaper from the outside, but when talking to you in person, it takes the form of Ann Bryson, Hadley (who should be in jail), and the patient who posed as Garneau. Same deal with the Starbrat.

 

When talking about the Collectors from ME2, Harbinger was the one who created an army of pawns to search the galaxy for this data taken from organic life. The little kid wasn't the one responsible. Like I said, Harbinger is the Intelligence, not the 8 year old boy.

 

I don't think you paid close enough attention to that Leviathan dialogue. The Intelligence existed and was doing stuff before it betrayed the Leviathans and then made Harbinger from them...

 

The name Catalyst comes from the people working on the Crucible so it makes sense that the Leviathans wouldn't refer to GlowKid as such.

[Valmar]

 

Leviathan tells you that the Intelligence is Harbinger. He makes no mention of the Catalyst.

 

Catalyst: ...an intelligence created eons ago to solve a problem.

Leviathan: From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it...Harbinger.

Shepard (select "Intelligence" dialogue): You built that machine....

 

You were talking to Harbinger the entire time. Enemies taking different forms is nothing new to sci-fi. Hell, the real Leviathan looks like an organic Reaper from the outside, but when talking to you in person, it takes the form of Ann Bryson, Hadley (who should be in jail), and the patient who posed as Garneau. Same deal with the Starbrat.

 

When talking about the Collectors from ME2, Harbinger was the one who created an army of pawns to search the galaxy for this data taken from organic life. The little kid wasn't the one responsible. Like I said, Harbinger is the Intelligence, not the 8 year old boy.

 

The cataylst claims it is the collective consciousness of all the reapers. The leviathan's say the intelligence used their species to build the first reaper, that doesn't mean the starbrat is Harbinger. The intelligence was already the intelligence before the invention of the reapers, afterall.

 

Incase I gave the wrong impression, I don't believe the starbrat is LITERALLY the little boy from earth. I know its 'just an image'. We're just never given an explanation for why its the kid from Shepard's dreams. I know it isn't LITERALLY the kid but it takes the form of the kid. How, why? No explanation is given. Though my issues with the starbrat go deeper than that. I don't like its mere existence. The collective intelligence was onboard the citadel the whole time - what point was the plot of the first game then?

 

The reapers are turned into tools that serve the intelligence, to give it purpose. Gone are the illusions of the reapers being "each a nation, free, independent". I find the starbrat's existence to be contradictory to a lot of the statements the reaper's have made in the past along with being full of plotholes. It's logic was never an issue for me, though, this I admit. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

 

When in doubt, ask the writers. Seems like they're saying the little boy is Harbinger.

 

No one is in doubt though, you're just wrong. The Leviathan makes it clear that the Intelligence and Harbinger are two separate entities. I'll take the writers word when there's confusions over what's actually in the game. That's not the case here though.

[Alamar2078]

The best ending for the Galaxy is difficult to speculate on given that we don't know [for sure] how the Galaxy evolves over the next few million years.

 

Given the above I would be suspicious about Synthesis [called Green Space Magic afterwards or GSM].  Beings that tend to believe that they are at the pinnacle of evolution [or anything else] tend to be the worst possible people to deal with when they are proven wrong, they need to allow for divergent points of view, tolerance, etc.

 

Control leaves the galaxy at the mercy of the AI that has Shep's memory.  While things may start off peachy there's no real guarantee that the galaxy as a whole will stay in good hands.  An AI that can be rewritten once [by Shep] can be rewritten again.  In addition what happens if a "human supremacist" Shep was in control of the Reapers.  Probably not such a good thing for the non-humans out there.

 

In the end Destroy gives you the highest degree of freedom for the peoples of the galaxy to make their own way.  They may stumble, they may fall but they have the freedom to choose without as steep a price as forced GSM or the dangers of control imply.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 

No one is in doubt though, you're just wrong. The Leviathan makes it clear that the Intelligence and Harbinger are two separate entities. I'll take the writers word when there's confusions over what's actually in the game. That's not the case here though.

 

You... are my new favorite person.

 

This never lasts very long, though.

[Gambit458]

Destroy really sounds like the best option. Reaper tech is something that should've been kept out of anyone's hands as it could be misused, Cerberus I'm looking at you, and with it gone..you know it won't fall into the wrong hands again. The only sad part about Destroy is that it undoes your work you did if you made peace between the Geth and Quarians and you kill EDI But if the synthetics are to return someday as the Catalyst said, then I don't see why EDI and such couldn't return as well. The catalyst was full of crap about the whole synthetics will turn on organics because the synthetics never really turned on the organics in this cycle. The Quarians attacked the Geth first which is why they retaliated. Any other time the Geth attacked was because they were being manipulated by the Reapers or by Saren. Destroy makes the most sense story-wise

[dorktainian]

destroy for the win.  Refusal second.

 

Why would you not want to remove the intergalactic genocidal killing machines if offered the chance?

Also.. Why should we be guided by an AI with as much logic as a peanut?

 

Synthesis?  Yep i'm sure all the people the reapers killed would like to thank you and your new friends.

Control?  You cannot control the reapers.  Do you believe starjar when he tells you you will be able to?  Oooooops.

[Ithurael]

Putting the controller down & turning off the game after getting zapped by harbinger and then starting the maurader shields comic

[Gambit458]

 

Leviathan tells you that the Intelligence is Harbinger. He makes no mention of the Catalyst.

 

Catalyst: ...an intelligence created eons ago to solve a problem.

Leviathan: From our essence, the first Reaper was created. You call it...Harbinger.

Shepard (select "Intelligence" dialogue): You built that machine....

 

You were talking to Harbinger the entire time. Enemies taking different forms is nothing new to sci-fi. Hell, the real Leviathan looks like an organic Reaper from the outside, but when talking to you in person, it takes the form of Ann Bryson, Hadley (who should be in jail), and the patient who posed as Garneau. Same deal with the Starbrat.

 

When talking about the Collectors from ME2, Harbinger was the one who created an army of pawns to search the galaxy for this data taken from organic life. The little kid wasn't the one responsible. Like I said, Harbinger is the Intelligence, not the 8 year old boy.

Leviathan didn't say that the intelligence was Harbinger, it told you that Harbinger was simply the first Reaper. The intelligence can't be Harbinger if Harbinger is created from Leviathan's race. Besides, they aren't going to tell you that it's called the Catalyst because that'd spoil it before you reached the Citadel. The whole game they didn't know what the Catalyst was until those final moments with Shepard

[dorktainian]

Reapers?  Harbinger?  Starjar?

 

The best ending for the galaxy is for them to fly into a black hole.

 

how the heck is starjar the catalyst?  he effects absolutely nothing therefore cannot be a catalyst for anything bar smashing my head against my palm at great speed and with maximum repetitions.

 

Shepard is the Catalyst.  (listen for his & her voice).

 

Choose, but choose wisely.  Then you might wake up.

[God]

IMO, High EMS Destroy is the best ending for the galaxy.

[CaIIisto]

IMO, High EMS Destroy is the best ending for the galaxy.

Correct answer gets a 'like'

[GalacticWolf5]

For me, the best ending for the galaxy is High EMS Paragon Control.

[TMA LIVE]

destroy for the win.  Refusal second.

 

Why would you not want to remove the intergalactic genocidal killing machines if offered the chance?

 Because technically you can't remove them, even if you destroyed them. I mean, unless the entire galaxy decided to take every scrap of Reaper Tech that existed in the galaxy, and throw it at the sun, most likely the Reapers could or can be repaired, or rebuilt. It's all still around, scattered all over the galaxy. Once that tech is out there, there's nothing stopping an organization like Cerberus from getting their hands on it. Or a Council or non-council race taking whatever they could, and rebuilding for their own purpose. It's like the starchild says "But the peace won't last. Soon, your children will create synthetics, and then the chaos will come back". And that's assuming the dead reapers still can't indoct like that one in ME2.