100 réponses à ce sujet

[Zu Long]

Went with the mages just because there's no way in hell I'm leaving Cory in possession of a minion who CAN ALTER TIME. That's a formula for losing if I've ever heard one.

[RVallant]

It's quite simple really;

 

The Mages retreated to Redcliffe, the chantry goes boom, the mages (or Fiona) reckons that's it, all of Thedas is now going to open a can of whoop ass on them because, magic! So they're an easy target. She awaits the Inquisitor, but Alexius time-warps there and is their 'salvation' and she basically submits to them.

 

(Correct me if I'm wrong haven't done the Mages in full)

 

But basically there's a hint of mind-warping/time travelling related to Fiona, her appearance at Val Royeaux for example. But also, Vivienne hints that she's not really mentally clued up (if you bring her she accuses Fiona of having dementia).

 

So why conscript over allying with them? The Circle Freedom vote was a split decision, a minority win in favour of freedom, Viv actually explains it quite well. A mage in Redcliffe says Fiona was going to accept the result of the vote, but for whatever reason she let the emotions overrun the logic of a minority vote and the consequences were as Viv says, not just the 'war' but basically outcasting every single mage who didn't support it. Also, their treatment of the Tranquil was particularly harsh (Mineave explains), at some point it became less about freedom and 'oppression' and more about power and you see that in the rogue elements, but, there's also some codex entries that don't exactly put them in good light and some of the rebels don't exactly seem keen to seek a consensus on anything in Redcliffe.

 

Given the haphazard management and the fact that the 'loyalists circle' mages are officially Allied with you, this choice boils down to "Do we ally with rebels who incited a war with a minority vote and have caused plentiful of atrocities" - I saw 'conscripting' as basically returning them to the temporary fold of the circle but within the Inquisistion until you can reform them later, especially since the game pretty much tells you that you're going to be shaking up the Chantry and whatnot at some point. Allying with them basically vindicates and supports their actions. Politically the common sense choice is conscription, you can advocate that mages rule themselves under supervision via other means, this choice isn't strictly a choice of freedom v oppression it's a reflection of their leadership and actions as a group.

 

The Templars on the other hand, similar issue but a lot more clear cut, they still have their 'use', they are still an order, one based on protecting the people that has simply manage to get lost from their mandate. They also have had their higher ups infiltrated, their lyrium corrupted and by the time you get to them aren't really an organisation that can survive on its own. The choice is 'disband them as soldiers' or 'ally with them to rebuild the order', and is more clear cut, because once you eliminate the higher order and wipe out the corruption the Templars are keen to return to their normal duties - albeit some of them still wish to pursue the mages for their crimes (Cassandra's confrontation), The Templars issue is seen as one of mismanagement by the leaders who have been politicking their way through things, corruption and infiltration, but the core of the knights-templars remain a tool with historical and religious significance, that requires better direction.

 

Thus allying with them, allowing them to rebuild and basically putting Ser Barris on the path to becoming their leader effectively bolsters the forces, maintains the anti-magic soldiers and more importantly the military arm of the potentially reformed Chantry, as opposed to making them impotent, though there is an argument that the Inquisition could become that military arm, it does seem to me that the Inquisition is meant to operated completely independently of the Chantry (for now anyway). Conscripting them wastes a valuable ally, the 'best soldiers' in all of Thedas and one of the main and probably only methods of dealing with abominations and maleficars safely. Send them to Tevinter for the resistance movement for example and they are specifically said to have demolished the venatorri due to their lyrium-powers (Tevinter Templars don't have that power), so it seems much more prudent to preserve them, an order, an idea, an establishment. The mages aren't an order, an establishment or an idea, not least when you consider that the Circle is already allied to you, they're an offshoot, a split and a dangerously incompetent one that needs folding back into the fold at least until you can put events in motion to reform the Chantry and its traditions and laws. Allying with them simply flies in the face of not just the Circle but all the mages so far who lost out because of the minority vote win decided on the whim of an idiot.

 

That's my view anyway. 

[rigron]

So why conscript over allying with them? The Circle Freedom vote was a split decision, a minority win in favour of freedom, Viv actually explains it quite well. A mage in Redcliffe says Fiona was going to accept the result of the vote, but for whatever reason she let the emotions overrun the logic of a minority vote and the consequences were as Viv says, not just the 'war' but basically outcasting every single mage who didn't support it. Also, their treatment of the Tranquil was particularly harsh (Mineave explains), at some point it became less about freedom and 'oppression' and more about power and you see that in the rogue elements, but, there's also some codex entries that don't exactly put them in good light and some of the rebels don't exactly seem keen to seek a consensus on anything in Redcliffe.

 

I am not sure if I have understood you well (english is not my native idiom) but you seem to say that the vote in favor of freedom of the mages was a minority. It was not: the result of the vote was that the majority of the Mages wanted freedom, the freedom option won over the slave to the chantry option and it is told in the novel Dragon Age Asunder.

 

Vivienne, being pro-chantry and anti-freedom of mages (basically because she is a controlling ****** who only seeks personal benefict and political power over mages in this case, which is impossible without the Chantry in charge of the Circle of Mages) gives her "particular" view on the matter, but the truth and the outcome of the vote is that there are more mages wanting freedom than mages wanting to follow with the chantry´s opression. As large or small that a majority is, it is still a majority wanting freedom over a minority wanting opression so Vivienne is wrong and it is simply voicing what she would like to be the truth, not the actual truth.

 

Again, sorry if I have missunderstood you, I only want to let that point clear.

 

 

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About why the mages allying with Alexius, Shahadem is completely wrong when he said that Bioware doesn´t explain why. The game clearly explains why (you even have the option to directly ask Fiona why and she clearly explains it) so I don´t understand the rant. I suppose he either has gone with Templars so he hasn´t played the mage mission and hence he won´t get an explanation on the alliance until he plays that part, or he simply has skipped a lot of content and conversations without reading of the game because otherwise he would know how and why did Alexius and the Venatori got the mages to ally with them.

[Rogerpenna]

I'm usually kind of neutral about the whole Mage/Templar conflict as both sides are equally right and wrong, but only a colossal fool and/or idealist would be willing to completely trust the Mages after all their f*ckups.

Trust is earned, so even a Mage Inquisitor can't just magically hand it over. It's as Bull said - a leader needs to be able to make a tough call and live with its consequences - arresting them and forcing their cooperation is more than justified and in this case the more reasonable choice. They've brought in on themselves.

 

And of course, the Templars didnt f*ckup either??

 

It were the Templars who started the war on DA2, where the Templars were already oppressing the mages and then it got even worse when the Templar General gets corrupted by Red Lyrium and decides to do an ethnic cleansing of mages. "Oh, but that was Red Lyrium's fault". Yes, but the templars below her all applauded the decision. Was ONLY HITLER blamed for everything bad that happened in WW2? What about his generals, ministers, etc?

 

So, what the templars did to gain trust? They rebelled against the Chantry, caused as much destruction as the mages, abandoned Orlais to it´s own and the Templar High Seeker even brutishly punches a nun in the chin when she is speaking and not even looking at him.

 

Btw, it´s easy to see the Tevinter guy as an obvious villain AFTER you meet him. Because he already accomplished his objective of getting the Herald there. Maybe when he offered the mages a treaty he wasn´t that villainous at all.

 

Also, the mages did not have the chance to beg for the chantry. You forget the Templars BROKE with the chantry. The Templars wanted to kill ALL MAGES. Simple as that. Either the mages made a pact with Tevinter or they would be all killed by the Templars.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 Is there a way to do this quest and/or anything in Redcliffe without recruiting the mages, and then going to the Templars? I am just trying to figure out a path for maximum XP here.

[Giantdeathrobot]

 Is there a way to do this quest and/or anything in Redcliffe without recruiting the mages, and then going to the Templars? I am just trying to figure out a path for maximum XP here.

 

Yes, going to Redcliffe Village and meeting Alexius, Dorian and Fiona doesn't lock you into the Mage path, taking the subsequent mission from the War Table does. Albeit RP wise, justifying to let the mages in the grasp with a Tevinter Magister with time magic may be hard.

 

Myself, I conscripted the Mages because, honestly, their leaderhip looked horribly untrustworthy at this point. They triggered a war they ultimately couldn't win, and when they (oh surprise!) started losing, they ran into the loving arms of a friggin Tevinter mage. I'm sorry, but when the sky is spewing out demons like it was Fade Christmas, I am not trusting these jokers any farther than I can throw them. Besides, the conscription is temporary until a new Divine is chosen and she decides what to do with the Circle, and even if the most conservative Divine is chosen she still makes the Circles more lenient so it's not like we're putting them back in a gulag.

[Frostmourne86]

And of course, the Templars didnt f*ckup either??

 

It were the Templars who started the war on DA2, where the Templars were already oppressing the mages and then it got even worse when the Templar General gets corrupted by Red Lyrium and decides to do an ethnic cleansing of mages. "Oh, but that was Red Lyrium's fault". Yes, but the templars below her all applauded the decision. Was ONLY HITLER blamed for everything bad that happened in WW2? What about his generals, ministers, etc?

 

So, what the templars did to gain trust? They rebelled against the Chantry, caused as much destruction as the mages, abandoned Orlais to it´s own and the Templar High Seeker even brutishly punches a nun in the chin when she is speaking and not even looking at him.

 

Btw, it´s easy to see the Tevinter guy as an obvious villain AFTER you meet him. Because he already accomplished his objective of getting the Herald there. Maybe when he offered the mages a treaty he wasn´t that villainous at all.

 

Also, the mages did not have the chance to beg for the chantry. You forget the Templars BROKE with the chantry. The Templars wanted to kill ALL MAGES. Simple as that. Either the mages made a pact with Tevinter or they would be all killed by the Templars.

 

 

The Templars didn't start it, an abomination apostate did....by blowing up an entire building because "there can be no compromise".

[SandiKay0]

Just a thought...Didn't the chantry demonize mages to their congrigations while they turned a blind eye to the abuses the templars perpetuated in their name?

[Ashagar]

It would be more correct to say some in the chantry did so and that some of the Templars abused their power over the mages not that all did so. We have plenty of good and bad examples of people in both the chantry and Templars both high and low ranking.

[FiveThreeTen]

I was under the impression conscripting or allying with either faction didn't seem to have much impact beyond companions approvals.

[jamesw849]

I am a elf mage I freed them

[Ashagar]

Its biggest impact is the results that happen after your victory, to use the examples of the Templars, if you conscript the Templars most of them stay in the Inquisition instead of joining the reformed new Templar order and if Cullen goes off the Lyrium the Templars who joined the Inquisition follow suit breaking their addiction to it.

[SandiKay0]

But did the conscripted mages renew the war afterwards?

[snackrat]

I really wish there was a medium point. I don't want to ally and support their douchebaggery, but ACTUALLY IMPRISONING them seems a tall order. I'd rather do what the templar option is and just 'absorb' them into the hierarchy. (Especially since I feel silly starting the templar one with all the nobles bumming about.)

 

It does seem later, by talking to Cass, that their 'cells' are actually just the same barracks all the other soldiers have. Which they complain about being cramped, obviously, despite the fact that's normal soldier fare. You can't use this to point out how privileged their living conditions must have been if they think they're being harshly mistreated just by getting the same conditions as everyone else.

 

I suppose that is part of their efforts to make templars seem more sympathetic and bring balance to the two sides - not possible for every individual obviously, but at least to the quest metrics.

[Maiden Ty One]

 

Bioware doesn't bother explaining what lead the mages to pledging themselves into servitude, probably because they couldn't think of any real reason that wasn't utterly ridiculous. I think that was a really huge plot hole. I mean if we assume that the mages were reasonably intelligent, then it should have been obvious that the Tevinter mages were scumbags who couldn't be trusted. That guy was the most obvious villain since Seymour summoned Dagon from the Underworld in Final Fantasy 10. And there is no real doubt that the Tevinter empire is completely evil and corrupt.

 

 

Check out how many young, educated people from western countries are going off to join ISIS in the Middle East right now.

 

ISIS release videos of themselves beheading people, yet thousands of non-evil people still consider them the 'good guys.'

 

The reason for this is that they think all the 'nasty stuff' we hear on the news about ISIS is just 'western propaganda', and that really ISIS are just 'freedom fighters' standing up against the evil American war machine.....so they fly over their to join up to these 'good guys', and the first thing they're taught is how to cut through someone's spinal cord. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Seriously, there are people who say they went over to join up because they honestly believed everything they'd heard about ISIS was just 'propaganda', then immediately came back once they saw that it was actually horrifically accurate.

 

 

 

People in Thedas don't even have the benefit of live 'news' and the internet. For Fereldan and Orlesian mages, all they know about Tevinter is what their jailers the Circle and Templars have told them over the years.....now they've suddenly broke free, it's actually incredibly logical for the mages to flock to the Tevinter Imperium. "The enemy of my enemy...." and all that. They're going to assume that all the nasty stuff they've heard about Tevinter from the Templars/Circle is just 'Chantry propaganda'. The mages despise the Templars and Circle, the Templars and Circle despise Tevinter. Tevinter is the 'land of mages' where mages rule...

 

OF COURSE the Fereldan/Orlesian Mages are going to want to join up with Tevinter! Tevinter would seem like Candyland to southern mages - who've never been there - at that point.

 

And you say that Alexius was the most 'obviously evil' character ever - did it occur to you that 99% of the Fereldan/Orlesian mages wouldn't have met the guy, and only the handful of 'lead mages' like Fiona would even know what the guy looks like? No TV in Thedas, remember?

The vast majority of southern mages will have this romanticised image of the Tevinter Imperium - just as many 'progressive, moderate Muslims' in the west have a romanticised view of ISIS. The mages don't realise that half of what they've heard about Tevinter is actually true, and they won't be welcomed as 'brothers and sisters', but as slaves - which is the exact kind of thing that happens in the real world all the time.

 

 

 

You know, one of my pet hates is people who cry "Plot hole!" and declare something bad storytelling - when there's actually a perfectly logical, rational reason behind it, which makes it not a 'hole' at all - they simply lack the imagination (or dare I say, the intelligence) to think of it themselves.

 

The whole thing of the Fereldan/Orlesian mages wanting to join up with Tevinter as a response to the mage/templar war, is actually a pretty damn good bit of storytelling and actually makes perfect sense. Your lack of imagination does not = 'plot hole' in the story. :/

[Maiden Ty One]

As the effects of the time dilation effects? As per all time travels events the standard "timey-wimey" trope comes into play, thus allowing the party writing to play it anyway they wish without having to justify it.

Anyway,

 

In fairness,'magic' exists in the Dragon Age universe, and this was 'magic time travel'. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

If it was some kind of science-based time travel in a sci fi universe (like Mass Effect), I would agree with you, and would hold them to the same standards of something like Twelve Monkeys.

 

But in a universe with fire breathing dragons and where one third of the human and elf population are 'mages', I'm willing to consider time travel 'paradoxes' as something that can easily be rectified through magic.

[Maiden Ty One]

 

And what were they even gaining? Maybe the help of 2 extra mages? 1 of whom was suffering from cancer or corruption and so wouldn't have been of much help anyways...

 

Er, no, there were WAY more than '2 mages' - it wasn't just Alexius and his son, there was a whole horde of Tevinter soldiers with them. That was the whole point - the Tevinter army had pretty much taken over Redcliffe. King Alistair (or whoever you had) allowed the mages to stay in Redcliffe, the mages then tried to ally with Tevinter, so Tevinter came and occupied Redcliffe, which is why the King/Queen/whoever was so p****d at the end of the mission.

 

 

And once he had the mages, why did he continue to stick around in Redcliffe for no reason at all? Why didn't they all high tail it back to Tevinter then and there? Instead they hang around Redcliffe for weeks on end with no real purpose while their enemies gather together to overthrow them.

 

Were you looking out the window while playing this game or something? Because he was working for Corypheus and planning to take over the whole world! Why would they "high tail it' back to Tevinter"? They've got a pretty awesome strategic stronghold garrison right on their enemy's doorstep! 0.o

 

And they weren't "waiting around while their enemies gathered" - they invited the Inquisitor to Redcliffe as part of their trap. They wanted the Inquisitor to show up. Seriously, how could you have missed this? 0.o

 

 

If we want to dig even further, why are the only people who are even aware of the altered timeline those in Redcliffe? Shouldn't everyone's memory of events have been changed the moment that the Tevinter mages go back in time?

 

Erm.....I don't even know what you're talking about here. The only altered timeline is the one the Inquisitor goes to with Dorian, and once they return, they are the only two who have memories of that timeline.

This is confirmed in later scenes where the Inquisitor is telling other characters about what will happen if Corypheous wins. So not sure what you're even on about here.

 

 

Also we need to consider how the mages were all but coerced to pledge themselves to Tevinter, who procured an agreement through a mixture of fraud and force.

 

Er....How about because the mages are currently at WAR with the Templars, after being their prisoners for years, they are now finally free but don't have the forces to fight them, so they turn to the Templars' other enemies, the Tevinter Imperium - a country where mages rule - for sanctuary. From the mages' point of view, this is seemingly a no brainer - these powerful mages who have their own empire will come in, bail them out, and they'll all be welcomed into the Tevinter Imperium as long lost brother/sister mages......or so they think; what will actually happen is they'll be sent to Tevinter as slaves, as the Tevinter Imperium has no love or care for them just because they're mages, and as far as Tevinter is concerned this is all just strategic power gain.

 

The vast majority of the southern mages have no idea what's going on in these meetings between Alexius and the mage leaders like Fiona, all they're thinking is "Templars = bad, Tevinter = good!". Fiona likely thought this as well at first, but by the time the Inquisitor shows up, even she is starting to see through Tevinter's BS.

 

If you walk around Redclife listening/talking to random mages, you get wildly varying opinions and outlooks from them - some think the sun shines out of Tevinter's a**, whereas others don't trust them any more than the Chantry, but are powerless to do anything about it.

 

 

We also don't know how the mages came to occupy Redcliffe or if the mages had been welcomed into Redcliffe where they remained peacefully until the timeline was altered at which point the narrative got lost anyways.

 

Er, no, it says pretty clearly that the mages where allowed to take refuge in Redcliffe on orders from the King/Queen of Fereldan. But then the mages put in a call to Tevinter, Tevinter came and took over Redcliffe which angered the King/Queen and all the Redcliffe locals.

 

It says this clearly in the story. I don't know how or why all of this went over your head, and you feel the narrative 'got lost'. 0.o

 

 

 

Ultimately the mages seem to be innocent of any actual crime, the only crime that was committed in Redcliffe was poor storytelling.

 

You are clearly one of these people who just does not pay attention, and then you blame your own short attention span on the writers of the game/movie/book you're experiencing, and declare it 'bad storytelling'. You probably flatter yourself, too, that you are somehow 'more observant' than the average audience member for spotting these 'plot holes', when in reality they're not plot holes at all - you just weren't paying attention and overlooked all the logic behind them.

 

I suggest next time you play a Bioware game, you don't just hit 'Skip' through all the dialogue cutscenes and actually listen to what is going on. You might enjoy it a whole lot more....¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[In Exile]

I think the real issue is not allowing us to judge Fionna alongside Alexius. I mean, given her fate in the templar branch, its not as if she's irreplaceable.

[Gervaise]

There is no right or wrong answer here.   However, just because you go with the using the Templars does not make you pro-Chantry or Templar, just seems like the best option at the time.    If you truly role play the decision there are good reasons for going with the Templars but I didn't keep them in tact but disbanded and conscripted  them into the Inquisition.    So they were still Templars but I was in control or rather Cullen was.    This seemed preferably to leaving them to manage themselves since their leadership was decimated and the others had little experience of leadership.   Everyone goes on how great Barris is but he did just stand by impotently while his senior officer punched a defenceless woman; that of itself should have caused him to question the man's actions.     

 

My first run I allied with the mages but was very dissatisfied with the result since unlike the Templar path, where I was allowed to judge the last surviving senior officer, I was not allowed to judge the person responsible for the whole mess, Fiona.   Depending on who you get as Divine, that can lead to big problems down the line since she seems to have learnt nothing from the experience, which is hardly surprising since you basically condoned her actions.     So I prefer conscripting the mages as well since they are then under my control and you get some interesting war table missions as a result as well, which depending on your choices can show you exactly how trustworthy some of the survivors are.     As I explain to companions who complain about my decision, they sided with the enemy and so are effectively prisoners of war until I am happy they can be trusted.   To be honest, giving them the run of Haven and then Skyhold I feel is very lenient and once the war was over I was only too happy for them to leave if they wished but most chose to stay so clearly working for the Inquisition isn't that bad.

 

The biggest difference in choosing one path over the other lies in how the plot develops from then on regarding the Elder One's chief lieutenant.    I much prefer the Templar path for this reason.     My ideal game would have been to be allowed to recruit the mages but have the Templar path from then on or better still not have to make a choice at all but combine all the plots together into one cohesive whole.    Sadly that was not to be.

[KaiserShep]

I think the real issue is not allowing us to judge Fionna alongside Alexius. I mean, given her fate in the templar branch, its not as if she's irreplaceable.

 

I think that this is the biggest problem. I prefer to ally with the mages, but I'd also prefer to remove Fiona from the position of their leader, or at least put her to work like Barris can be, rather than lingering around in the Skyhold library, which she does regardless of your decision at Redcliffe.

[Lumix19]

I think that this is the biggest problem. I prefer to ally with the mages, but I'd also prefer to remove Fiona from the position of their leader, or at least put her to work like Barris can be, rather than lingering around in the Skyhold library, which she does regardless of your decision at Redcliffe.

I think Allying goes against that. Asserting your authority like that's not exactly treating them as equal partners. I would like to put her to work though although I guess she's busy sorting out the mages, it's not like they were a military organization.

[Archdemon_Urthemiel]

Guess everyone wants to necro a thread that the OP likely already had an answer to months ago

[In Exile]

I think Allying goes against that. Asserting your authority like that's not exactly treating them as equal partners. I would like to put her to work though although I guess she's busy sorting out the mages, it's not like they were a military organization.

Allying with the mages doesn't somehow mean that you've allied with every individual Mage. Pore to the point you can't judge her even if you conscript them.

[KaiserShep]

I think Allying goes against that. Asserting your authority like that's not exactly treating them as equal partners. I would like to put her to work though although I guess she's busy sorting out the mages, it's not like they were a military organization.

 

I think the only thing that might prevent it from being workable is that Fiona might be the only one among the mages that would be largely considered to be the leader. Otherwise, an alliance does not preclude holding one of their own responsible. As for the alliance itself, I would say that the Inquisition is the vastly greater half of the arrangement, at least as long as there's still a mission to accomplish, in which they call all the shots, and the mages would have little say in the matter.

[sorentoft]

>There are people who didn't save the Templars

You monsters

Why? They didn't even want my help. At least the mages and Dorian did. Besides - stopping time magic or negotiating with some templars? Priorities.