234 réponses à ce sujet

[Korhiann]

Is it just me or did the Grey Wardens come off as not being nearly as impressive as we've (Or at least me) been lead to believe. 

Obviously not all of the recruits would have come from a martial, or otherwise powerful, background, but still I would think that their training, equipment and experience against the darkspawn would at the very least make them equal to the Inquisitions' troops. 

The scene I'm referring to is the siege of Adamant where the wardens are shown as, quite frankly, getting their behinds handed to them. I would have thought that the legendary killers of darkspawn would be able to match run-of-the-mill infantry. 

Kinda seems like Bioware has taken a disliking to the Grey Wardens since Origins. Almost as if they've gone all HBO on us, I mean can we please not have them be complete pansies?

[Nyaore]

You also have to consider the following:

 

1. Those wardens are divided and driven by fear. A good portion don't want anything to do with what's going on, and the rest are demon possessed or far too afraid of the world being overtaken by the blight. Fear clouds judgement, and if exploited can either make you a dangerous foe or simply dangerous to your own self. 

2. Adamant is old, as Cullen mentions before you head in. Remember all that siege equipment in the cutscene? The fortress isn't reinforced to withstand it - or any invasion by a thinking army. It's made to deal with darkspawn, who don't have siege tech on their hands. I can bet a good number of wardens were killed outright by the thrown stones or the collapsing buildings.

3. Did you see the head warden face off with the false archdemon after being it's chew toy. That wasn't weak at all. 

4. I honestly think, and this is just speculation, but most of the wardens who are worth anything saw the writing on the wall and aren't there. Loghain, the Warden, Stroud, etc. I think we're mostly facing the ones who are weak enough to give in to fear.

[Korhiann]

1. The warriors weren't possessed and I don't see their fear of the calling as having any negative effect on their fighting abilities, if anything it should have strengthened their resolve to defend the ritual, especially since they all thought their days were numbered anyway. Granted not all of them feel right about what was going on and choose to surrender instead. 

2. I'm not referring to the fortress itself, but the fighthing between Inquisition troops and Grey Wardens. I would have fallen sooner or later, just expected the troops to put up more of a fight, since the Helm's Deep'ish cinematic shows the Grey Wardens as being complete pushovers once you get into melee. 

3. She was the commander, so you would expect that. And yes she certainly lived up to their reputation of being badasses. The rest... Not so much, not counting our two friendly wardens of course. 

4. Sorry, can't really buy that one. If you're supposed to be guarding against a Blight that could happen at any given time and you're constantly fighting against darkspawn then you do NOT want to have a bunch of pansies running around whom don't know how to fight, or whom are easily frightened. They fight darkspawn for a living, you would think that would toughen them up. 

As to why the named Wardens wereb't anywhere to be seen I don't know, hadn't thought about that to be honest (I guess it comes down to them not nessecarily being in the game depending on ones Keep choices?). I also haven't found out why Blackwell didn't get the false calling. So while I don't agree with it, I have to admit that it is entirely possible that the stronger Wardens were able to resist it. We know that Alistair and Fiona also haven't shown the affects of the calling.

[blahblah]

Run of the mill infantry? The Inquisitions army is said to be able to rival the most powerful force in the game which is Orlais.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

The Inquisition's troops are likely the most motivated army in Thedas, rivaled only by the Qunari in their fervor. After all, they believe they are fighting for a living saint and if they die then they will have died carrying out the maker's will. Compared to the disorganized Wardens, is it any question what the outcome of a siege would be?

 

If your read the Last Flight you'd know that that wardens aren't actually a particularly disciplined or organized army outside of a blight. Its a miracle in its own right that the wardens have been able to pull themselves together to fight each blight. And the last one was a complete fluke, so many crazy absurd events came together to allow your warden to win in origins.

[Korhiann]

Run of the mill infantry? The Inquisitions army is said to be able to rival the most powerful force in the game which is Orlais.

 

As opposed to darkspawn, yes. However good the Inquisition recruits are, or have been trained to be, they are still "human" so to speak. It is certainly hinted heavily that the Inquisition has attracted very skilled soldiers throughout, then again I thought the same was supposed to be true about the Grey Wardens. 

 

I haven't read Last Flight. It would explain why they were shown as mounting a poor defense, then again I was never under the impression that they were anything more than elite warriors, as opposed to soldiers. And it's still not about the fortress falling, but about their martial skill. 

Still, doesn't explain why they were so clearly outmatched in the cutscene when engaged in melee. I suppose it's just the Bioware writers/animators wanting to show how skilled the Inquisition troops are. Might just come down to factions being downplayed in games in which they are not the main focus, or overplayed in games where they are. 

[Chronoreaper]

I think the wardens were weakened by the calling sorta how the darkspawn are nothing till they find a old god to corrupt that being said only those unable to hear it aren't there which would mean the stronger willed or battle hardened ones such as the warden commander/orlesian commander, shroud and the rest are not present though I would like to know more on how they managed to not even hear a whisper of it.

[Gamyu]

I think the problems lies between the facts the the Grey Wardens are no longer the legendary warriors they once were and that the Calling is effecting them. While some Wardens are indeed very skilled, in time of non-Blight, they tend not to recruit strong warriors, or even anyone into the rank. And can you imagine fighting the Inquisitions/demons when there is a voice singing in your head to go die in the Deep Roads.

[ThePhoenixKing]

Well, they had to shill the Inquisition somehow, didn't they? Even given the fact that the Wardens are divided, and their numbers limited thanks to the sacrifices, one would think that a group of monster-slaying badasses, backed with an army of demons, would put up a way tougher fight. Then again, considering how even Pride Demons have been nerfed...

 

Also don't really get where people are coming from saying that the Wardens don't recruit strong warriors anymore. First of all, given how numerous and vicious the darkspawn are, any Wardens would need to be tough if they were to survive for any length of time. Secondly, they'd undoubtedly receive additional training once they'd actually gone through the Joining. Also, as for the Wardens no longer being legendary warriors? The Hero of Ferelden and the Awakening Wardens would doubtless disagree with you. As well, the Fifth Blight was only a decade ago; doubtless plenty have joined the Wardens in the wake of that, when Thedas got a reminder of just how bad the darkspawn could be. And then you've got the defecting mages and Templars joining the Wardens as the Mage-Templar War begins, as discussed in Last Flight. So this notion that the Wardens are born pushovers is ludicrous, especially since they've been saving the world for centuries.

[X Equestris]

The Wardens are only worth a lot against darkspawn. Against a thinking, human opponent they die as easily as the next person.

[raging_monkey]

Well, they had to shill the Inquisition somehow, didn't they? Even given the fact that the Wardens are divided, and their numbers limited thanks to the sacrifices, one would think that a group of monster-slaying badasses, backed with an army of demons, would put up a way tougher fight. Then again, considering how even Pride Demons have been nerfed...
 
Also don't really get where people are coming from saying that the Wardens don't recruit strong warriors anymore. First of all, given how numerous and vicious the darkspawn are, any Wardens would need to be tough if they were to survive for any length of time. Secondly, they'd undoubtedly receive additional training once they'd actually gone through the Joining. Also, as for the Wardens no longer being legendary warriors? The Hero of Ferelden and the Awakening Wardens would doubtless disagree with you. As well, the Fifth Blight was only a decade ago; doubtless plenty have joined the Wardens in the wake of that, when Thedas got a reminder of just how bad the darkspawn could be. And then you've got the defecting mages and Templars joining the Wardens as the Mage-Templar War begins, as discussed in Last Flight. So this notion that the Wardens are born pushovers is ludicrous, especially since they've been saving the world for centuries.

thedosians are just ungrateful

[b09boy]

Yeah, this is definitely an inconsistency.  The Wardens are not just run-of-the-mill troops.  A few Wardens in Soldier's Peak managed to fend off the entire Ferelden army for a time.  A handful managed to cut through the deep roads in The Calling like a knife through butter.  Every recruit who goes through The Joining in Awakening is a certified badass.  Up to this point in the series we've never met a Warden who wouldn't look at any other ten soldiers and laugh.

[Hellion Rex]

I didn't think our attack on Adamant was as much a reason to defeat the Wardens as to go smack some sense into Clarel.

[Master Warder Z_]

Run of the mill infantry? The Inquisitions army is said to be able to rival the most powerful force in the game which is Orlais.

It isn't even in the same ballpark as Orlais in terms of martial strength.

[SgtSteel91]

It isn't even in the same ballpark as Orlais in terms of martial strength.

 

Well you can get the backing of the Orlais military if you play your cards right...

[Former_Fiend]

Eh....

 

I think they did a good enough job in leveling the playing field by mentioning that the age of the fortress meant it wasn't built to withstand modern siege engines and that Leliana was able to get a hold of it's schematics so they were able to exploit choke points and the like. 

 

Between those two facts, the dissent and division among the Warden ranks, and the clear numerical superiority of the Inquisition, I wasn't too bothered by the result.S

 

Still, my own bias and favoritism towards the wardens in mind, had I been writing that scene, the Inquisition would essentially have been walking into a meat grinder. They'd still have won, but the cost would have been pretty terrible.

[Former_Fiend]

It isn't even in the same ballpark as Orlais in terms of martial strength.

 

True that. Orlais is playing grade school t-ball these days.

[SgtSteel91]

Well, they had to shill the Inquisition somehow, didn't they? Even given the fact that the Wardens are divided, and their numbers limited thanks to the sacrifices, one would think that a group of monster-slaying badasses, backed with an army of demons, would put up a way tougher fight. Then again, considering how even Pride Demons have been nerfed...

 

Also don't really get where people are coming from saying that the Wardens don't recruit strong warriors anymore. First of all, given how numerous and vicious the darkspawn are, any Wardens would need to be tough if they were to survive for any length of time. Secondly, they'd undoubtedly receive additional training once they'd actually gone through the Joining. Also, as for the Wardens no longer being legendary warriors? The Hero of Ferelden and the Awakening Wardens would doubtless disagree with you. As well, the Fifth Blight was only a decade ago; doubtless plenty have joined the Wardens in the wake of that, when Thedas got a reminder of just how bad the darkspawn could be. And then you've got the defecting mages and Templars joining the Wardens as the Mage-Templar War begins, as discussed in Last Flight. So this notion that the Wardens are born pushovers is ludicrous, especially since they've been saving the world for centuries.

 

1) It was the Northern Wardens getting all of the Mages and Templars. The Southern Mages and Templars made their own groups that are taken by the Inquisition and the Elder One

 

2) If Vivienne is anything to go by, people may have lost respect for the Wardens and see them as a bloated relic when two of them are all that is needed to stop a Blight.

[Master Warder Z_]

True that. Orlais is playing grade school t-ball these days.

Its population, wealth and martial tradition indicates otherwise.

Not to mention it holds the title of "superpower" of the south.

[Former_Fiend]

Its population, wealth and martial tradition indicates otherwise.

Not to mention it holds the title of "superpower" of the south.

 

I have the feeling they're going to be holding a different title soon enough.

 

I'm thinking "Paper Lion".

[Master Warder Z_]

I have the feeling they're going to be holding a different title soon enough.

I'm thinking "Paper Lion".

Under Gaspard?

I doubt it.

[SgtSteel91]

I think I'll do the Orlais main mission first before the Warden mission just so in can imagine that the combined strength of the Inquisition and the allied Orlais military steam-rolls the Wardens.

[Br3admax]

Even under Celene I doubt it,  given the Inquisition's presence within it's borders. I've seen literally nothing to support Orlais is losing it's status anytime soon. 

[Former_Fiend]

Under Gaspard?

I doubt it.

 

Maybe not. Under his successor, though? His successor's successor?

 

 

Even under Celene I doubt it,  given the Inquisition's presence within it's borders. I've seen literally nothing to support Orlais is losing it's status anytime soon. 

 

So long as Celene rules and Gaspard lives, Orlais has the equally flattering status of "puppet state", and I'm ok with that.

[Br3admax]

Maybe not. Under his successor, though? His successor's successor?

And what if the world blows up?! Most of us don't use whatifs for evidence. 

So long as Celene rules and Gaspard lives, Orlais has the equally flattering status of "puppet state", and I'm ok with that.

Except it isn't a puppet state of the Inquisition.