234 réponses à ce sujet

[Char]

I think Origins gave a very heroic impression of the wardens, but when I take into account just how few we actually encountered, it's possible that many of the tales were exaggerated and that we were misled by the favourable impressions given by Alistair etc. about the wardens, and the efficacy of our own Warden. It's a bit like the Qunari or the Dalish- first impressions have given a narrow perspective which has then been expanded upon.

The Wardens may well have once been an incredible and fearsome force, but t doesn't follow that they still are with so few Darkspawn around to fight, and such a negative image among many nations that they are reduced to conscripting criminals and the sick in some instances.

[TheKomandorShepard]

To be honest as far 95 % of wardens badassery comes from nothing more than legends and reputation (same for crows) outside soldier's peak there is nothing impresive about wardens most of time they are red shirts that die when they face enemy like in dao and daa when they are killed by darkspawn that the warden destroys himself/herself.

[Han Shot First]

The protagonist in any game is always going to steamroll enemy mooks, no matter how powerful they are in the lore, because the A.I. in video games never comes close to ever matching a player. Also other than bosses they are usually designed to be much weaker than your character even when at a similar level. If the protagonist was a Warden at Adamant instead, he or she would be steamrolling Inquisition soldiers.

 

As for the siege itself...the Inquisition winning doesn't necessarily diminish the Wardens. Adamant was said to be old and in bad shape, and presumably the Inquisition came with lot more men and firepower than the Wardens had defending it. Traditionally a unit on the defense is considered to have a 3 to 1 advantage over an attacker of similar strength. An attacking force then should either have a 3 to 1 advantage in numbers over the defender or have in their pocket some other factor that serves as a force multiplier. And that's without even taken into account that the Wardens were behind fortifications, even if a bit crumbling.

 

In the vast majority of sieges throughout history, the attacker usually outnumbered the defenders and usually by a significant margain. The Inquisition then likely brought more troops than the Wardens had behind Adamant's walls. My sovereigns are on the Wardens being heavily outnumbered, not unlike Soldier's Peak.

[Mr.House]

The protagonist in any game is always going to steamroll enemy mooks, no matter how powerful they are in the lore, because the A.I. in video games never comes close to ever matching a player. Also other than bosses they are usually designed to be much weaker than your character even when at a similar level. If the protagonist was a Warden at Adamant instead, he or she would be steamrolling Inquisition soldiers.

 

As for the siege itself...the Inquisition winning doesn't necessarily diminish the Wardens. Adamant was said to be old and in bad shape, and presumably the Inquisition came with lot more men and firepower than the Wardens had defending it. Traditionally a unit on the defense is considered to have a 3 to 1 advantage over an attacker of similar strength. An attacking force then should either have a 3 to 1 advantage in numbers over the defender or have in their pocket some other factor that serves as a force multiplier. And that's without even taken into account that the Wardens were behind fortifications, even if a bit crumbling.

 

In the vast majority of sieges throughout history, the attacker usually outnumbered the defenders and usually by a significant margain. The Inquisition then likely brought more troops than the Wardens had behind Adamant's walls. My sovereigns are on the Wardens being heavily outnumbered, not unlike Soldier's Peak.

There's also the faith aspect, the Inquisition army has massive faith in their leader and will fight right to the death for her, this will make them fight better then normal. The Warden moral was down the tube with the in-fighting and fear.

 

That and the massive numbers along with advanced siege equipment WILL make a massive change.

[CrazyRah]

There's also the faith aspect, the Inquisition army has massive faith in their leader and will fight right to the death for her, this will make them fight better then normal. The Warden moral was down the tube with the in-fighting and fear.

 

That and the massive numbers along with advanced siege equipment WILL make a massive change.

 

Zealots are seriously terrifying but amazing to have on your side. Makes sense that they'd be able to achieve remarkable feats from faith alone!

[gothicshark]

Is it just me or did the Grey Wardens come off as not being nearly as impressive as we've (Or at least me) been lead to believe. 
Obviously not all of the recruits would have come from a martial, or otherwise powerful, background, but still I would think that their training, equipment and experience against the darkspawn would at the very least make them equal to the Inquisitions' troops. 
The scene I'm referring to is the siege of Adamant where the wardens are shown as, quite frankly, getting their behinds handed to them. I would have thought that the legendary killers of darkspawn would be able to match run-of-the-mill infantry. 
Kinda seems like Bioware has taken a disliking to the Grey Wardens since Origins. Almost as if they've gone all HBO on us, I mean can we please not have them be complete pansies?

few things, I'm sure others have mentioned this.

1. The Grey Warden Home base is in the Anderfels, what we faced was the Regional HQ for Orlias

2. The Inquisition Forces are made up of an assortment of seasoned veterans from:
- preselected troops for the Inquisition by the Previous Divine
- the Templars (under certain choices)
- Mage Circles (under certain choices)
- Veterans of the Orlesian Civil War (under certain choices)
- Mercenary Bands (under certain choices)
- assorment of special troops, spys and others (under certain choices)
- True Believers (No matter what you do)

3. You are catching the Orlesian Grey Wardens at their weakest moment,
- they have sacrificed most of their non-mage forces
- they are all under a spell of fear, and are not thinking clearly
- The Orlesian Garrison is no longer as strong as it was during the past glory days, even more so since it missed the 5th blight

[gothicshark]

It isn't even in the same ballpark as Orlais in terms of martial strength.

Depends on your choices, at weakest by the end of the game the Inquisition is as strong as any small nation in the game, at most powerful you can rival Tevinter (I would say Orlias but for that option you basically rule Orlias as such their military might is yours)

[Sifr]

So 100 Wardens held off a nation's army only because a fortification.  Nevermind any personal strength they might have or any need they would have to personally hold choke points no matter the fortification.  And it's only darkspawn, right?  Nevermind they are vicious creatures which destroyed one kingdom and brought the world to its knees multiple times and are supposed to be some of the most frightening things anyone anywhere has seen, they're not too tough, right?  And yeah, we're going to bring companions into this, because they are the examples we have.  This is the first time we've seen Wardens who are not extremely strong.  Someone brought up Alistair, Davos and Jory as well.  Alistair wasn't the strongest templar, but he did very well in the tournament they held prior to his recruitment and was one of the greenest recruits present.  Jory won his tournament in Highever, one of the largest cities in Ferelden.  Davos was quick enough to pickpocket Duncan, himself a former pickpocket.  Wardens are selected from among the best, must survive trial by combat against the single most aggressive thing in the lore, and do nothing but fight from then on.  So yeah, there is some inconsistency when you've got Grey Wardens falling one-on-one to some nameless mooks you send over a ladder.

 

To be fair, it wasn't as if the Grey Wardens were bravely fighting an entire army to a standstill or preventing them from scrambling the walls, Soldier's Peak was a classic siege, where Arland's forces had the place surrounded and knew that the Grey Wardens weren't going anywhere fast. As such, Arland's men didn't have to bother engaging the Wardens at all, they just had to sit and wait until they starved to death, which was how the Wardens got to the point of being so desperate that summoning demons seemed like a good idea.

 

And as for Darkspawn, it's less to do with the darkspawn being tough as sin and more to do with the fact that they operate as a horde and can zerg-rush their opponents and win through sheer numbers. Look at Ostagar for instance, how many darkspawn do we see get cut down in the opening volley of arrows and after they release the hounds? But it doesn't slow them down at all, because they have so many troops at their disposal, that they can afford to throw them away.

[b09boy]

To be fair, it wasn't as if the Grey Wardens were bravely fighting an entire army to a standstill or preventing them from scrambling the walls, Soldier's Peak was a classic siege, where Arland's forces had the place surrounded and knew that the Grey Wardens weren't going anywhere fast. As such, Arland's men didn't have to bother engaging the Wardens at all, they just had to sit and wait until they starved to death, which was how the Wardens got to the point of being so desperate that summoning demons seemed like a good idea.

 

And as for Darkspawn, it's less to do with the darkspawn being tough as sin and more to do with the fact that they operate as a horde and can zerg-rush their opponents and win through sheer numbers. Look at Ostagar for instance, how many darkspawn do we see get cut down in the opening volley of arrows and after they release the hounds? But it doesn't slow them down at all, because they have so many troops at their disposal, that they can afford to throw them away.

Arland's men might not have had to bother engaging the Wardens...but they did.

 

As to darkspawn, yeah, the whole zerg concept is much of what makes them so dangerous.  But it's not like they are weak. "A single berserking hurlock can often be a match for numerous opponents at once."  "Not known for tactical prowess, hurlocks have to be told where to go. But once they're there, there's no need for instruction. These darkspawn are masters of the blade; crippling, shattering, battering, bruising, slashing, hacking, tearing, ripping, biting, stabbing, strangling are all easy feats for these monstrosities."  Wardens have to take this description on one-on-one just to be eligible for Joining, and you don't often hear of them travelling alone.

[myahele]

The grey wardens seem portrayed just about right. 10yrs ago there weren't that many southern wardens. Since the blight I'm sure there were many eager recruits, but I doubt there'll be that many by the time they fight the inquisition.

Also keep in mind that many non mage warden were sacrificed for the demon binding.

[MisterJB]

Weak? Didn't you see what Clarel did?

First she was deemed worthy of binding Nightmare, then she manhandled a Magíster, and; after being munched on by a dragon,  still manages to cast a spell powerful enough to make it lose its footing and even bleed.

Woman was crazy powerful. 

[Master Warder Z_]

She magically punched a hole through it's stomach x.x

[raging_monkey]

She magically punched a hole through it's stomach x.x

hadokken! Is what went through my head lol

[Red of Rivia]

Wardens are finished as the Night Watch, there is a quote in the Inquisition in the loading screen that says Wardens kill the Archdemon and disappear without glory or anything else , they need not be a military force as an army , because not everyone survives the ritual, kill Darkspawn and therefore only the Inquisition broke into ( outside the military power of the Inquisition that was larger )

[gothicshark]

Wardens are finished as the Night Watch, there is a quote in the Inquisition in the loading screen that says Wardens kill the Archdemon and disappear without glory or anything else , they need not be a military force as an army , because not everyone survives the ritual, kill Darkspawn and therefore only the Inquisition broke into ( outside the military power of the Inquisition that was larger )

Umm I feel the need to point out a few things. When there is no Blight the Grey Wardens have a duty to keep the Darkspawn from reaching the Surface. They seek and hunt all access from the Deep to the Surface, the assault these points regularly, and almost always encounter Darkspawn.

As an independent military force they have always had large numbers, until very recently. Also the Grey Wardens have a Sizable Kingdom that is dedicated to them and their purpose. Anderfels. This is where the First Blight erupted, and it is where the first blight was stopped. As a kingdom they fight the Darkspawn as much if not more so than the Dwarven kingdom of Orzammar.

[Palidane]

I would like to point out that the Orlais only ever had 300 Wardens there. Every one of them was a stone-cold killer, and they did have demons to assist, but there's still only so much you can do with 300 guys. Coupled with the losses they took due to desertion, disagreement, and sacrifice, the crumbling fortress they were defending, and the Calling driving them all mad, I think their performance seems pretty reasonable.

[Red of Rivia]

Umm I feel the need to point out a few things. When there is no Blight the Grey Wardens have a duty to keep the Darkspawn from reaching the Surface. They seek and hunt all access from the Deep to the Surface, the assault these points regularly, and almost always encounter Darkspawn.

As an independent military force they have always had large numbers, until very recently. Also the Grey Wardens have a Sizable Kingdom that is dedicated to them and their purpose. Anderfels. This is where the First Blight erupted, and it is where the first blight was stopped. As a kingdom they fight the Darkspawn as much if not more so than the Dwarven kingdom of Orzammar.

If we take it that way , the Wardens are really weak, if they need an army to go deep routes and to end the Darkspawn yes, but just in case they get in surveillance do not think so in this case : Finally from time to archdemon in the deep routes more follow the side ' ' Night Watc''h thing and stay in surveillance and getting rid of darkspawn on the surface '' the Witcher ''

[Siegdarth]

Well, let's say that even if the wardens are that powerful some problems always rises. 

Wardens have 10 to 30 years lifespan after the joining, depending how much time they spent close to the darkspawn, means that every Veteran and experienced   Warden before the 5th blight has gone to the deep roads. the Warden Commander was searching for a cure to the calling, meaning he was starting to showing their the symptoms. 

 

Wardens conscripts are not always the most powerful and talented warriors, the only requisition is surviving the joining, proof of that is how 2 really weak npcs survives the joining, while in awakening some of the kinda strong characters dies in the process. Even some of them are just common criminals. 

The first ones that are sacrificed to the ritual are probably the older members of the order, and by it means they are lacking veterans.

Darkspawn do use siege weapons/magic at the bridge on the way to the tower of ishal. They also can use tactics during a blight due the Archdemons commands. 

The only function of the joining is  to grant the person "immunity" to the taint and the ability to sense the darkspawn movements. Not any kind of  power.
But during a blight is more common that powerful warriors/mages/rogues joins the Wardens due the risks, if the 5th blight had gone longer probably the PC and even Hawke would fought the darkspawn.  
  
The wardens of Orlais are just a few hundred while the inquisition forces are at least 10 to 30 times that size (if you had help of Orlais army) If you put that in numbers probably the Warden armies had yet to build something as big as a Demon army. Probably the wardens demons are just the beginning of the future demon army. 
 

Well the fight and everything else could have been more awesome, but it was ok by my standards. Only thing that was kinda meh, was the huge spider thingy.

[gothicshark]

If we take it that way

Umm. Going to make assumptions based on your sentence structure. (I Have dyslexia; I spend a great deal of energy to make sure my thoughts are legible, and that I make full and complete thoughts.)

I think you are saying, that the wardens are weak if they use Armies to assault the Deep Roads, to destroy the Darkspawn, however they are not weak if they are going to spy on the Dawkspawn.

your last bit is untranslatable for me.

The Wardens Do not send Armies to destroy the Darkspawn, they have in the ancient past and it has failed to make a dent in them. Sending an Army against the Darkspawn doesn't make someone weak. Just like it doesn't make them strong to send one guy to spy. Individual Grey Wardens are mostly just normal humans that survived the Joining. They are then trained to fight like any other army.

Their only special power is they can hear the song of the corruption, so they have a spidey sense with darkspawn, and they can kill an archdemon by becoming an unwilling host.

As an military force they have a responsibility to protect the world from dawkspawn, even when there is no blight. Which means clearing out surface tunnels to the Deep Roads. Since Dark Spawn have been known to wander up from time to time, the grey keep them under control.

It's not about them being strong or weak, they have a job no one else can do.

[Red of Rivia]

Umm. Going to make assumptions based on your sentence structure. (I Have dyslexia; I spend a great deal of energy to make sure my thoughts are legible, and that I make full and complete thoughts.)

I think you are saying, that the wardens are weak if they use Armies to assault the Deep Roads, to destroy the Darkspawn, however they are not weak if they are going to spy on the Dawkspawn.

your last bit is untranslatable for me.

The Wardens Do not send Armies to destroy the Darkspawn, they have in the ancient past and it has failed to make a dent in them. Sending an Army against the Darkspawn doesn't make someone weak. Just like it doesn't make them strong to send one guy to spy. Individual Grey Wardens are mostly just normal humans that survived the Joining. They are then trained to fight like any other army.

Their only special power is they can hear the song of the corruption, so they have a spidey sense with darkspawn, and they can kill an archdemon by becoming an unwilling host.

As an military force they have a responsibility to protect the world from dawkspawn, even when there is no blight. Which means clearing out surface tunnels to the Deep Roads. Since Dark Spawn have been known to wander up from time to time, the grey keep them under control.

It's not about them being strong or weak, they have a job no one else can do.

Sorry , I'm not one of a country that speaks English natively , so sometimes what I write is complicated to understand , sorry ;_;

It was not quite what I meant, let me put it this way : The Grey Wardens are an Order which in my opinion should not be associated with an army or something , I believe that as an order they should remain concerned about the Darkspawn , so their inefficiency against a real army can be ... as I can tell, acceptable ( in my opinion ) then given this explanation I believe the Guardians longer part of a kind of hunters and not a army. They really need an army ? maybe, after all the Darkspawn horde as the name suggests is a horde , but I think as guardians they should be treated as something special and not purely soldiers , you know? I do not know how to explain it right.

[gothicshark]

Sorry , I'm not one of a country that speaks English natively , so sometimes what I write is complicated to understand , sorry ;_;

It was not quite what I meant, let me put it this way : The Grey Wardens are an Order which in my opinion should not be associated with an army or something , I believe that as an order they should remain concerned about the Darkspawn , so their inefficiency against a real army can be ... as I can tell, acceptable ( in my opinion ) then given this explanation I believe the Guardians longer part of a kind of hunters and not a army. They really need an army ? maybe, after all the Darkspawn horde as the name suggests is a horde , but I think as guardians they should be treated as something special and not purely soldiers , you know? I do not know how to explain it right.

 

 

Much better, and yes I understand that. The problem being, Grey Wardens can't all be superheroes, and sometimes the lands they have treaties with don't have Armies. So the Grey have to have a fighting force, because the Darkspawn are a Horde, and the Darkspawn use 'Zerg' or swarming tactics. Which makes things really hard, since the Darkspawn individuals are almost as good at fighting as any 3-5 men, and there are more darkspawn than men on the surface. Which is why the Grey Wardens do their best to keep a large enough force to handle the Darkspawn when ever they surface during a blight, or when they come near the surface in their normal wanderings. As I mentioned, there is a kingdom right on top of the largest concentration of Darkspawn, and that kingdom is the Home of the Grey Wardens.  

[Red of Rivia]

Much better, and yes I understand that. The problem being, Grey Wardens can't all be superheroes, and sometimes the lands they have treaties with don't have Armies. So the Grey have to have a fighting force, because the Darkspawn are a Horde, and the Darkspawn use 'Zerg' or swarming tactics. Which makes things really hard, since the Darkspawn individuals are almost as good at fighting as any 3-5 men, and there are more darkspawn than men on the surface. Which is why the Grey Wardens do their best to keep a large enough force to handle the Darkspawn when ever they surface during a blight, or when they come near the surface in their normal wanderings. As I mentioned, there is a kingdom right on top of the largest concentration of Darkspawn, and that kingdom is the Home of the Grey Wardens.  

It's a good argument, but as I said before , I just think need an army to the grey wardens if they are for an end to the Darkspawn in the deep routes , whether it would be easier to train just create wardens and transform them in a soldier well trained that will kill the archdemon and end the blight , not an army to stop the horde, the countries and kingdoms to do so, while the gray guardians are more ... archdemon a killer when the blight happen.It's a good discussion.

[gothicshark]

It's a good argument, but as I said before , I just think need an army to the grey wardens if they are for an end to the Darkspawn in the deep routes , whether it would be easier to train just create wardens and transform them in a soldier well trained that will kill the archdemon and end the blight , not an army to stop the horde, the countries and kingdoms to do so, while the gray guardians are more ... archdemon a killer when the blight happen.It's a good discussion.

 
 
Blights only happen when Darkspawn encounter a sleeping Old god, and turn them into an Archdemon. There were only 7 Old Gods, and we have had 5 blights in 2000 years. By your idea you would only need 1 or two grey wardens at a time, and only when a blight happens. 
 
The problem is Darkspawn breed like cockroaches. If someone isn't sending a regular stream of soldiers to contain them they will out populate the Deep Roads, and reach the surface even without a blight. Only two forces face the Darkspawn, in the south Orzammar, and everywhere else the Grey Wardens. 

[Chronoreaper]

Gray Wardens personally should be becoming more martial since the fifth blight as only two more exist and then what will happen with the darkspawn? they aren't just gonna retreat due to the calling