Counterpoint:
We've also seen the Wardens get wiped out twice.
1. Vigil's Keep had a bunch of Wardens we never meet because they all get massacred before we arrive.
2. The Battle of Ostagar supposedly had a bunch of other Wardens than Duncan too.
Which we never see because they're dead.
if you use the dwarf noble origin you can see the other wardens alongside with Duncan.
Is it just me or did the Grey Wardens come off as not being nearly as impressive as we've (Or at least me) been lead to believe.
Obviously not all of the recruits would have come from a martial, or otherwise powerful, background, but still I would think that their training, equipment and experience against the darkspawn would at the very least make them equal to the Inquisitions' troops.
The scene I'm referring to is the siege of Adamant where the wardens are shown as, quite frankly, getting their behinds handed to them. I would have thought that the legendary killers of darkspawn would be able to match run-of-the-mill infantry.
Kinda seems like Bioware has taken a disliking to the Grey Wardens since Origins. Almost as if they've gone all HBO on us, I mean can we please not have them be complete pansies?
This has been addressed by several posts, but there is something I think is being overlooked slightly.
The Inquisition is training night and day, has the backing of some of the most powerful noble houses and the equipment. They also have the numbers as more join up all the time as the Inquisitor's fame grows. The Wardens are killing its own members in attempts to bind some demons, and their numbers are small to begin with.
From what I remember in a bit of dialogue, I think one of the nobles in Skyhold's hall said that my soldiers were equal to the Chevalier's, Orlais's elite knights, in terms of skill and quality equipment. And with numbers on my side, I can see the Wardens getting overwhelmed.
The Inquisition's soldiers are not just "run of the mill infantry"
Dragon Age 2 was kind of a "fix fic" because people had gotten the idea the Wardens were heroic do-gooders and lovable goofballs due to the Grey Warden being potentially played as a heroic hero who heroes with his quirky band of weirdos.
When, in fact, they are a bunch of somber, serious, antiheroes who do horrible things for the greater good.
Bethany was kind of necessary to remind gamers of this.
One thing which is also necessary is the reminder the Wardens aren't supersoldiers either. They're kind of supersoldiers but they're like the Jedi in the Prequels versus the Jedi in the OT.
Counterpoint:
We've also seen the Wardens get wiped out twice.
1. Vigil's Keep had a bunch of Wardens we never meet because they all get massacred before we arrive.
2. The Battle of Ostagar supposedly had a bunch of other Wardens than Duncan too.
Which we never see because they're dead.
You mean that we've seen the Wardens get completely overwhelmed by massive enemy numbers in completely unfavorable battle in which we did not see the action they were a part of when they number around about a handful and the enemy numbered in the hundreds or thousands. I can't say I take that as much of a counterpoint. Especially when, at Ostagar, the Wardens were supposed to number so few and yet they, with the king's camp, managed to hold an overwhelming horde for at least an hour (the beacon was an hour late).
Eh, that's really unnecessary. Helpful and desired, but unnecessary. A Warden needs to benefit the cause, in whichever way. That way could be more from political benefits of making someone a Warden rather than their skill, or that could be from having recruits you must train up rather than already elite warriors (because recruiting elite warriors is costly, and the Wardens fortunes are always in decline after a Blight).
So you're telling me that Wardens DON'T undergo this most basic test that we've seen every Warden go through. Oh. Ok. Well, sorry I brought up a point which largely renders yours moot.
Religious fervor.
I'll remember to ask some of my SEAL buddies how that works out with ISIS.
This has been addressed by several posts, but there is something I think is being overlooked slightly.
The Inquisition is training night and day, has the backing of some of the most powerful noble houses and the equipment. They also have the numbers as more join up all the time as the Inquisitor's fame grows. The Wardens are killing its own members in attempts to bind some demons, and their numbers are small to begin with.
From what I remember in a bit of dialogue, I think one of the nobles in Skyhold's hall said that my soldiers were equal to the Chevalier's, Orlais's elite knights, in terms of skill and quality equipment. And with numbers on my side, I can see the Wardens getting overwhelmed.
The Inquisition's soldiers are not just "run of the mill infantry"
So how long, do you think, does it take to train up soldiers to an elite level, and how long do you think Inquisition lasts?
You mean that we've seen the Wardens get completely overwhelmed by massive enemy numbers in completely unfavorable battle in which we did not see the action they were a part of when they number around about a handful and the enemy numbered in the hundreds or thousands. I can't say I take that as much of a counterpoint. Especially when, at Ostagar, the Wardens were supposed to number so few and yet they, with the king's camp, managed to hold an overwhelming horde for at least an hour (the beacon was an hour late).
So you're telling me that Wardens DON'T undergo this most basic test that we've seen every Warden go through. Oh. Ok. Well, sorry I brought up a point which largely renders yours moot.
I'll remember to ask some of my SEAL buddies how that works out with ISIS.
Counterpoint:
We've also seen the Wardens get wiped out twice.
1. Vigil's Keep had a bunch of Wardens we never meet because they all get massacred before we arrive.
2. The Battle of Ostagar supposedly had a bunch of other Wardens than Duncan too.
Which we never see because they're dead.
The Roman Army, pound-for-pound the best Army of that era, was completely annihilated at that battle by a force that was both qualitatively and quantitatively inferior. And that disastrous defeat had followed on he heels of other disastrous defeats to Hannibal at the Battle of the Trebia and at Lake Trasimene.
No military force, no matter how fearsome or well-trained, is invincible.
The Wardens suffering a couple defeats shouldn't necessarily mean they should be written off as being poor quality. That is particularly the case considering Vigil's Keep and Ostagar really only included a handful of Wardens, and Ostagar was lost through no fault of the Wardens. And we really know nothing regarding the Order of Battle at Adamant. Its possible (and probably likely) that the attacking force greatly outnumbered the defenders, as that is almost always the case with sieges.
Yeah, the idea the Beacon was an hour late is flat out wrong.
Also, they didn't "hold" the position very long at all.
They were overwhelmed and killed quickly.
You were delayed probably fifteen minutes by the attack on the tower but that was fifteen minutes too long (and probably wouldn't have worked anyway).
My general point, though, is the Wardens are really-really good soldiers.
However, let's put it in Dragon Age rules terms.
The average soldier is 1st level.
The Average templar or mage should be 3rd to 5th.
The average Warden should be 7th.
The Hero of Fereldan/Inquisitor and Company eventually get to 20th. As powerful as the Grand Enchanter or Lord Seeker or First Warden.
Kind of a difference, there.
The nameless Wardens you fight are Elite Mooks but very much mooks.
So how long, do you think, does it take to train up soldiers to an elite level, and how long do you think Inquisition lasts?
Well, the big issue is the Inquisition is made of, before they recruit the Mages or Chantry, veteran Templars and Mages (Vivienne's plus the Conclave survivors) who have been fighting a war this entire time.
It starts with a seasoned core.
Also add in the fact Cullen is an extremely capable commander. He's not Grand Admiral Thrawn but he has Leliana for the sneakiness.
I don't know where you got that "beacon was an hour late" thing. I have never heard or read that anywhere.
On point two, not all Wardens take the Joining right away. We see this in Last Flight. It doesn't mean they won't ever take the Joining, just that it may be delayed when it isn't absolutely necessary to have as many full-fledged Wardens as possible.
Your last point is poor, as you those forces aren't equal. Think about Islam's rapid expansion in its early days, or the Crusaders. That is what religious fervor can do for a military campaign.
One of the writers clarified on the hour late bit awhile ago. Can go look it up yourself or ask one of them about it. But yes, it was very much late.
On the point of Last Flight, the Wardens who didn't take the joining did so because they were experts within a field needed for research and they didn't want to risk killing them. They were an exception to the rule for a very specific purpose.
As to my last point, it rather stands. You seem to be under the impression that the forces are equal. Religious fervor can make people do things they wouldn't otherwise do, or can got large flocks to join a cause, but it doesn't make them particularly better at what they're doing. Religion didn't create the phenomenal supply lines in the crusades. It doesn't stop swords or bullets. It can make you blow yourself up, though.
Well, the big issue is the Inquisition is made of, before they recruit the Mages or Chantry, veteran Templars and Mages (Vivienne's plus the Conclave survivors) who have been fighting a war this entire time.
It starts with a seasoned core.
Also add in the fact Cullen is an extremely capable commander. He's not Grand Admiral Thrawn but he has Leliana for the sneakiness.
They're veteran, you say? Isn't their lead scout someone they JUST picked up a bit before you got there? Yeeeeaaaaah...
Grey Wardens work better in small groups anyway. Didn't strike me as an organization who'd actually get anything done as a large army against smart and organized enemies.
They might be the best of the best, but only in their own darkspanw turf, with others they'd run like headless chicken figuring out things.
Grey Wardens work better in small groups anyway. Didn't strike me as an organization who'd actually get anything done as a large army against smart and organized enemies.
They might be the best of the best, but only in their own darkspanw turf, with others they'd run like headless chicken figuring out things.
They are not. Even in Blights where they could be said fighting a conventional army, their purpose is to be an elite kamikaze force. Outside a Blight they don't have a foe that fights as a conventional army, and since time between Blights are vast (and Fifth Blight was very short) they would have very little experience fighting an actual army or being one.
Actually the devs said the beacon was an hour late.
Actually the devs said the beacon was an hour late.
I haven't seen that, sorry.
They're veteran, you say? Isn't their lead scout someone they JUST picked up a bit before you got there? Yeeeeaaaaah...
Yes, they're veterans.
What you said doesn't indicate otherwise.
I sort of agree OP, it was indeed very weird seeing the Wardens lose every 1 v 1 in the cinematic, one might argue that Inquisition soldiers are indeed very skilled....SPOILER Incoming ....... then again 5 of them got killed in under 5 sec by the duchess alone at the winter palace, that makes the wardens look really bad.
I sort of agree OP, it was indeed very weird seeing the Wardens lose every 1 v 1 in the cinematic, one might argue that Inquisition soldiers are indeed very skilled....SPOILER Incoming ....... then again 5 of them got killed in under 5 sec by the duchess alone at the winter palace, that makes the wardens look really bad.
Like I said, we need to remember the Companions are the best in their field.
Grand Duchess Fionne could slaughter a dozen Wardens.
Because she's THAT good.
I'm hearing a lot of possible explanations for why the Wardens fared so poorly and the Inquisition did so well, and while I can kinda understand the losses due to the sacrifices/infighting in the ranks, the notion that the Wardens are incapable of open warfare doesn't make any sense, given what we've seen previously in the franchise.
And that's the major problem right there. The Wardens have been established as wholly capable from day one. From the intro cinematic of Origins and beyond, the Wardens have always been portrayed as excellent fighters and a respected military order for a reason. That doesn't mean they were invincible, or that they couldn't have moral ambiguities, or even that they always won, but at the end of the day, we were given a clear picture as to what exactly they were capable of, and how they could stand against enemies as monstrous as the darkspawn.
Conversely, the Inquisition's military forces are never effectively established as a genuine powerhouse, let alone something that is superior to both the Grey Wardens and the militaries of both Ferelden and Orlais. We're shown that the Wardens are badasses. With the Inquisitorial troops, we're merely told.
(As an aside, I think that's the general problem with the Adamant arc as a whole, nothing is effectively established; not the superiority of the Inquisition troops over the Wardens, or the danger posed by Nightmare, or the need to sacrifice someone to delay it. Everything happens because the plot says so, not because it makes any real sense).
Willowhugger, I was looking up the dev comment and found a battlefield analysis that I think you may be interested in.
http://forum.bioware...t-debate/page-2
Go half-way down and there's a pretty good grid/battlemap and explanations.
Not what I was looking for, but I thought it may add some insight for those who haven't seen it yet.
Conversely, the Inquisition's military forces are never effectively established as a genuine powerhouse, let alone something that is superior to both the Grey Wardens and the militaries of both Ferelden and Orlais. We're shown that the Wardens are badasses. With the Inquisitorial troops, we're merely told.
Well, it is established when they kick the Grey Warden's ass.
I admit, however, I view Grey Wardens as not inherently superior to Mages and Templars so the fact the Inquisition has one or the other behind them means it should have been a curb stomp battle.
Because it's already one of the most feared powerhouses in Thedas vs. another PLUS the Inquisition's own raised military.
Well, it is established when they kick the Grey Warden's ass.
I admit, however, I view Grey Wardens as not inherently superior to Mages and Templars so the fact the Inquisition has one or the other behind them means it should have been a curb stomp battle.
Because it's already one of the most feared powerhouses in Thedas vs. a chapter of such PLUS the Inquisition's own raised military.
I hadn't thought of that. Fiona says she has several hundred mages, and I can only assume the same of Barriss and his Templars. You're right, they might have outnumbered the Grey Wardens alone. Really makes me wish we could have seen some of them in that big battle cinematic, would have made things a lot clearer.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
I'll remember to ask some of my SEAL buddies how that works out with ISIS.
Yeah, let's compare SEALs to warriors that drink dragon blood mixed with orc blood mixed with blue magic powder. Let's compare ISIS to warriors that drink water with blue magic powder mixed in and people that can shoot lightning out of their hands. Try again buddy.
Yeah, let's compare SEALs to warriors that drink dragon blood mixed with orc blood mixed with blue magic powder. Let's compare ISIS to warriors that drink water with blue magic powder mixed in and people that can shoot lightning out of their hands. Try again buddy.
Holy ****, we're fucked. I surrender. Allahu akbar.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
Holy ****, we're fucked. I surrender. Allahu akbar.
Hey man, plenty of good people that make salat that aren't associated with those crazies.
For what's worth, in the Adamant battle there's two things the Wardens can't stop -- huge siege machines which the fortress wasn't built to stand against (but supposedly it still takes large alliance of forces and long time to crack it, we are simply shown the final moments when it actually, eventually does crack) and the protagonist clad in their Plot Armour, which is self explanatory.Is it just me or did the Grey Wardens come off as not being nearly as impressive as we've (Or at least me) been lead to believe.
Obviously not all of the recruits would have come from a martial, or otherwise powerful, background, but still I would think that their training, equipment and experience against the darkspawn would at the very least make them equal to the Inquisitions' troops.
The scene I'm referring to is the siege of Adamant where the wardens are shown as, quite frankly, getting their behinds handed to them. I would have thought that the legendary killers of darkspawn would be able to match run-of-the-mill infantry.
Kinda seems like Bioware has taken a disliking to the Grey Wardens since Origins. Almost as if they've gone all HBO on us, I mean can we please not have them be complete pansies?
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