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Why do Melee Rogues lack a Guard/Barrier Equivalent? Make one.


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#1
Lethys1

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The TL;DR is in bold and in the middle of the post.  It is one of three changes I suggest, the other 2 are giving melee rogues a lot more threat reduction, or giving them a lot more damage to make up for the problems inherent in the class.

 

The list of melee rogue problems is too dense and specific to be hashed out in its entirety, so I'll just mention the basics.  Rogues need to flank to do real damage in melee, but the problem is that there's no indication of the angles you can flank from except directly behind; otherwise, you're literally taking stabs in the dark and hoping you're doing the extra damage.  In DA:O, the attack animation changed.  In this game there's, as far as I can tell, nothing.

 

It's too hard to get into flanking position, and 4x as hard in the tactical camera (which is insane and ridiculous).  Skills miss in tac cam if you queue them up and don't then take control directly.  You get hit and die in very few hits.  The skill to jump out of danger can be blocked because of collision detection with enemies, which defeats the purpose of it existing at all.  You still get hit even a second or two after entering stealth, even with it upgraded, for God know's what reason.  Threat reduction passive doesn't do enough at all.  It should be 75% reduced for melee rogues, all things considered.  I think that's a bad solution, but that would be one to help alleviate the inherent bias towards ranged dps.  I have an idea for a solution below.

 

When flanking, a larger enemy which does AoE damage on every hit will kill rogues almost instantly.  Bears and those larger guys that swing their hammers do this, making them ineffective in those fights entirely.  How this was not recognized very early in development, I don't know.

 

Most enemies have a way of moving around the battlefield very rapidly, or transporting, and rogues do not.  WHAT????  Isn't that the entire theme of the class?  Entering and exiting swiftly from combat?  Oh, the jump skill is supposed to do that?  Please.  How can a warrior go from one side of the battle to another faster with his bull skill than with any skill the rogue has?????????  This makes them constantly chase around enemies futilely, as ranged simply move where they're aiming and are uninterrupted.  

 

Ranged rogues can stand away from damage, can still enter stealth, can still get the same threat reduction passive, can move around as they fire, and have some insanely overpowered skills.  That's all fine.  Nothing is overpowered in a single player game as far as I'm concerned, only underpowered.  Which brings me to my next point: mages and warriors have barrier/guard respectively, but rogues get nothing.  Archers don't need much (mage barrier is enough for them), but melee gets crushed.  Even warriors without guard get crushed, so obviously rogues who can't get behind enemies that are always moving will get crushed 10x harder.  

 

One way to cure the many, many balance issues with melee rogues would be to give them something called "EVADE."  It would generate constantly and be diminished the longer you are attacked directly.  You would avoid all damage, but it would eat up your "EVADE" to do so.  The longer you go without being hit for, the more EVADE you build back up.  Passives could be unlocked to increase the total amount you can have at once or how quickly it regenerates, and Barrier would take precedence by eating damage before EVADE was lowered (like for guard now).  Evade should only mean avoiding damage, not stuns from those large AoE guys.

 

Why the game was shipped out with these balancing issues is something I've been spending the past couple hours wondering about.  Melee rogues are unplayable without some kind of massive overhaul because they die constantly and don't do enough damage to make up for it, and they spend half the battle running around hitting nothing.  If they attack bosses from behind (flank position) they still die from the AoE hits.  Tac cam attack queuing is broken for rogue skills and it makes them miss way more than not.  Either up all the damage of our skills by a ton, give us a ton more threat reduction, or give us Evade so that we don't get this ridiculous scenario where it seems that damage is unavoidable for such an easily damaged class.

 

How was this not noticed in QA testing?  It just bothers me because I've spent so many hours and the game has so much potential to be one of the best in a long time, were it not for some strange issues.  2h warriors and the AI also have massive issues, as does the tac cam, but those can be saved for other posts.  The combat is really weird in the game and the decision to leave out healing has left the entire rogue class in the dust.

 

Oh, and to the inevitable "JUST RE-ROLL ARCHER" people: no.  That's not an answer.  I don't want to be an archer, I already have 2 archers that are just fine.  I don't want to bring 2 archers to every mission if I happen to want Varric or Sera there.  I also didn't want to play as one to begin with, or else I would've chosen it.  I chose melee rogue because I like it in theory.  I kept with it long, thinking that of course it would get better later on because the game would never be this imbalanced.  I've spent too many hours to want to go through the game again at this point.  I'm at the midway stage roughly.  I would be a mage if I got the chance to actually re-roll, but that's clearly not an option, so this is something that is on my mind.


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#2
TacoKush

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seriously!, rogues lack actually hitting the frikkin enemy!!! its easy to dodge with cloack but fu***, all i be hitting is air inches away from the enemys back cause their mindlessly running away...\no love for the rogues :bandit:


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#3
lastpawn

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I too would like to see something done to make melee rogues more viable on harder difficulties.

 

Stealth is nice, but stealth doesn't stop 360 degree attacks. What's the point of being "behind" if you're going to get hit anyway?

 

Compare to archers who can do as much or almost as much damage while rarely worrying about survivability.


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#4
TheJiveDJ

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yeah they really fudged rogue this time around. its almost totally useless on anything higher than normal. even on normal and easy, you get destoyed by aoe attacks while flanking. i can barely participate in the battle any battles that have aoe attackers.
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#5
Terodil

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Very good post, Lethys -- it's what's been bothering me a lot too.

 

I suppose you're meant to pick your fights, i.e. your tank and ranged go after the big aoe slam-type dudes, and your rogue goes after the squishies, but as you said, rogues simply lack the mobility skills to do so. For me that became blatantly obvious (trying to keep spoilers to a minimum) in the battle where you meet the baddie in person for the first time. I'm fine with sticking my rogue on the casters, but considering how they just zip across the battlefield at 10% hp left and keep you running for half an eternity I could just as well let my rogue pick flowers instead.

 

And there are quite a few battles where AoE damage is so vicious that playing a non-tank in melee is just suicide. Back to picking flowers.

 

I really wish I hadn't picked my favourite class at the start of the game. Maybe I'll start again as my OTHER favourite class, a healer.

 

Oh wait...



#6
Gel214th

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Apparently y ou can get Masterwork Dual Daggers and add an update to it which generates Guard on Hit. The daggers hit everything in an Arc infront the Dual Wield Rogue, therefore building guard consistently. 

 

No, I don't know where to get these things. 



#7
Krogort

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How do Parry works ?



#8
Semipro

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Its kind of unfortunate if this is the case cause the game is dropping rogue knives all over the place in my game as if its saying "man your two handed warrior sure is boring, you'd be having a lot more fun with this awesome loot if you just played rogue".

 

I'm pretty sure my next Inquisitor is going to be my mage world state though, mages just seem beastly in DA:I.


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#9
Sartoz

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 Big Snip
..............
  I've spent too many hours to want to go through the game again at this point.  I'm at the midway stage roughly.  I would be a mage if I got the chance to actually re-roll, but that's clearly not an option, so this is something that is on my mind.

Yeah.. I know what you mean about combat inbalances. Have you looked at Laidlaw's Twitter page?

 Mike Laidlaw (@Mike_Laidlaw) | Twitter



#10
Galvine

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I'm not having any issues with my melee rogue on normal mode..I just destroy as assassin. If I happen to get in front of an enemy, or before an aoe swing from them I use upgraded flank attack to avoid damage and go back into stealth. I build guard with one dagger and have 10% chance to proc hidden blades on other and also on my chest atm. Lvl 18 right now.

 

I do like your Idea on evade OP...or maybe boost our damage the higher the difficulty we go.



#11
FumikoM

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Well it is easier being a long range rogue, I think anyway. I have more fun though, as a dual wielding rogue. I can't facetank everything (obviously, one might say), something that is easy as a two-handed warrior. Also the lack of abilities that knock enemies down is the biggest problem for me. I had to avoid a certain rift in Hinterlands because being a bit too hard, but as a warrior on the same level, no problem. I just knock down everything and then kill them. So for me so far, warrior is easy mode, rogue is normal or hard mode.



#12
Sartoz

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Apparently y ou can get Masterwork Dual Daggers and add an update to it which generates Guard on Hit. The daggers hit everything in an Arc infront the Dual Wield Rogue, therefore building guard consistently. 

 

No, I don't know where to get these things. 

got them exploring the Hinterlands.



#13
Nerevar-as

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OP felt a lot like my experience in NM in DA2. Damage output doesn't compensate being made of wet paper.

#14
Hexoduen

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Healing spells! ... Oh yeah, wishful thinking...



#15
mav805

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Well as a 2-handed Warrior using Block and Slash you can basically tank a single enemy indefinitely, including being able to parry from behind a 2-handed enemy. Is the parry ability by dual wield rogues not basically identical?



#16
Lethys1

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Well as a 2-handed Warrior using Block and Slash you can basically tank a single enemy indefinitely, including being able to parry from behind a 2-handed enemy. Is the parry ability by dual wield rogues not basically identical?

 

You do so little damage if you were to try that, and the stakes are higher on each parry because of the relative lack of guard and armor.  The whole class is based on hitting from behind, it's the only way to do even remotely similar damage to the damage by archers. 


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#17
TacoKush

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i agree with op 100% , went through half the game thinking is gonna get better but its only getting 1000x harder..

 

rogue needs damage/guard buff big time, i also agree that rogues are basically useless anything higher than normal...rogues have been reduced to revive medics... against normal enemies ehhh, against bosses .. forget it.. So mad cause my mains r always Rogue

 

whats the point having classes when all they focus on is mages... I made a knight-enchanter, my character dont even need a party.. so much for warriors as tanks ...



#18
Shahadem

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The most obvious solution is just remove the concept of a melee rogue, which is really pretty ridiculous anyways. If you are going to be in melee range then you are going to want armor, and as much of it as you can get. That's really what the wwarriors guard is, taking into account the fact that they have lots of metal plates all over their body. Then roll what was the old melee rogue into the warrior class and then flesh out the new dedicated ranged physical class. I have no doubt that the next DA is going to feature a gun toting class, so the new ranged class will be specializing between bows, crossbows, and muskets.


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#19
Realyn

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The most obvious solution is just remove the concept of a melee rogue, which is really pretty ridiculous anyways. If you are going to be in melee range then you are going to want armor, and as much of it as you can get. That's really what the wwarriors guard is, taking into account the fact that they have lots of metal plates all over their body. Then roll what was the old melee rogue into the warrior class and then flesh out the new dedicated ranged physical class. I have no doubt that the next DA is going to feature a gun toting class, so the new ranged class will be specializing between bows, crossbows, and muskets.

 

I disagree with this. You don't need armor as such, but you do need a way to avoid the rampant damage that occurs in melee range. One way of addressing this issue, would be to allow for more passive or active avoidance based skills. And no, I'm not talking about that extremely shitty and waste of a talent point that is 5% chance to dodge an attack. I mean, really? 5%?  :mellow:

 

What I would like to have seen are 'iframes'. As in 'invincibility frames', where a rogue is unhittable while executing their acrobatic skills. This would only last a very, very short moment while you execute the skill, but would allow you to actively stay in melee range without being murderized by activating skills with proper timing. Is your timing off? You get mangled and have nobody to blame but yourself. Is your timing spot on? You are doing what you do best as a rogue; being a badass, nimble fighter.

 

Before you start saying 'this would make dw rogues OP!', that would be false. Not all skills would have such iframes and those that do, would have a cooldown. You might still have to move out of melee range at times, which is fine and even more believable. You wouldn't be able to dodge everything, but you would be able to react to incoming heavy attacks.

 

Hell, the whole description of the class is based on avoiding damage instead of tanking it. Yet, there are so very few skills that actually promote the advertised playstyle.

 

Also, AoE damage reduction talents. Seriously.  :angry:


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#20
Aethena

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I disagree with this. You don't need armor as such, but you do need a way to avoid the rampant damage that occurs in melee range. One way of addressing this issue, would be to allow for more passive or active avoidance based skills. And no, I'm not talking about that extremely shitty and waste of a talent point that is 5% chance to dodge an attack. I mean, really? 5%?  :mellow:

 

What I would like to have seen are 'iframes'. As in 'invincibility frames', where a rogue is unhittable while executing their acrobatic skills. This would only last a very, very short moment while you execute the skill, but would allow you to actively stay in melee range without being murderized by activating skills with proper timing. Is your timing off? You get mangled and have nobody to blame but yourself. Is your timing spot on? You are doing what you do best as a rogue; being a badass, nimble fighter.

 

Before you start saying 'this would make dw rogues OP!', that would be false. Not all skills would have such iframes and those that do, would have a cooldown. You might still have to move out of melee range at times, which is fine and even more believable. You wouldn't be able to dodge everything, but you would be able to react to incoming heavy attacks.

 

Hell, the whole description of the class is based on avoiding damage instead of tanking it. Yet, there are so very few skills that actually promote the advertised playstyle.

 

Also, AoE damage reduction talents. Seriously.  :angry:

 

These are a great idea with the iframes.

 

The classes in general, and not just the Rogues all seem to have issues. Mages atm in the game are blatantely completely OP. Go full party mages , trololol gg Bio..

 

Tanks are having issues holding hate at all, as War Cry keeps the bosses, etc. on you for all but maybe 2 seconds before they wander off to attempt to face rape your mages.

 

Rogues, well you know..

 

Ranged Rogue and Mages are lightyears better than anything else atm, as even 2H Warriors are having issues doing anything past scrapping the enemies armor.



#21
robmokron

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TL:DR

 

I think it has to with the fact that if they had it, all classes would be too similar. Rogue's alternative seems to be dodging



#22
Aethena

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TL:DR

 

I think it has to with the fact that if they had it, all classes would be too similar. Rogue's alternative seems to be dodging

 

I hate people who TL:DR. If you're gonna respond at least read what they say, instead of going in being ignorant and thinking you know whats going to be said, before you read it.

 

Point is, if you read, then read the first few responses, the Rogue is SUPPOSED to be dodging/avoiding attacks.. but they don't do that either.. nor do they have a guard, or anything worth anything to defend themeselves.

 

Making your response completely mute and worthless.. No offense.


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#23
Absolution81

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The problem seems to be that all classes were "balanced" for multi-player, at the expense of the single player experience.  I never had any intention of touching multiplayer for this game, so I'm stuck with: no auto attack, weak mages, rogues that are relegated to ranged attacks, and warriors who play more like Scorpion from Mortal Kombat ("Get over here!") than medieval foot soldiers.


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#24
Zhen Dil Oloth

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???

 

I play an Elf Rogue Dual Wielding Daggers.... and I do fine. 

 

I am currently level 16 with Dagger that I crafted 356 DPS/ 261 DPS. 

Am wearing a Scout armor I crafted 184 Armor.

 

As for needing to block..... maybe it is more needing to adjust one's play style instead??

 

Rogues play differently then Warriors. 

 

Instead of blocking... might be a good idea to dodge instead???

 

Either using Evade which is custom made just for that...... or using Flank Attack can help you get out of the way of an attack if you time it well??

 

Playing a Rogue requires finesse..... not just brute force. Too often people try to play Rogues like Warriors/Fighters. 


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#25
Ghost_of_Zap

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Because rogues can evade and become invisible and instantly flank and put their attackers to sleep and make themselves the least noticed member in your party. They literally don't need a barrier.


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