115 réponses à ce sujet

[Lethys1]

Because rogues can evade and become invisible and instantly flank and put their attackers to sleep and make themselves the least noticed member in your party. They literally don't need a barrier.

 

That would all be true if invisibility always made enemies miss, which it doesn't.  In fact, I constantly get hit even a second or two after going invisible, which should instantly cause enemies to stop attacking.  Flanking angles are too difficult to achieve because the enemies move around too often.  The sleep skill is at best a way to make up for mistakes. And evade gets blocked by enemies due to collision detection.  So if you're around more than a few enemies, you actually cannot escape that way.  And the enemies get to hit you even with you moving away, but your own attacks whiff constantly.

 

So those ideas are just not really valid because they work in theory (which is why I chose the class) but not in practice.  And with so few potions, getting hit once and making one mistake causes you to use a potion, which wastes it (vs. actually mitigating damage with guard and barrier being a real possibility for the two other classes).

[Schmonozov]

Because rogues are glass cannons, cabable of the highest dps by far in the game. Giving them barrier would break class balance and there would be no reason to ever pick warrior or mage.

[Plouton]

Because rogues are glass cannons, cabable of the highest dps by far in the game. Giving them barrier would break class balance and there would be no reason to ever pick warrior or mage.

 

There is proverb from MMO games - "Dead character can't do DPS". Sadly, it's completely true for melee rogue in DAI (ranged are more or less fine). Lack of autoattack in PC version, inability to consistently avoid AOE damage and inability to have decent view of battlefield to react on events like "one of newly arrived enemies targeted rogue" makes playing for melee rogue really painful on higher difficulties. Don't sure about barrier, but something definitely must be changed here.

[crusader_bin]

I suggest automatic invisibility on successfull stealth hit from behind? Or automatic backflip.

[Gel214th]

I suggest automatic invisibility on successfull stealth hit from behind? Or automatic backflip.

Oh you mean defense dependent on your characters attributes, and chosen passives and powers, rather than your own reaction time? 

Nope.

 

DA:I is an ACTION rpg. 

[Sartoz]

Apparently y ou can get Masterwork Dual Daggers and add an update to it which generates Guard on Hit. The daggers hit everything in an Arc infront the Dual Wield Rogue, therefore building guard consistently. 

 

No, I don't know where to get these things. 

Actually, I got them but sold them away. Sara is a Rogue Archer...Don't remember where I found them (either chest or loot) but I do lots and lots and lots of exploring...

[elfgirl]

There is proverb from MMO games - "Dead character can't do DPS". Sadly, it's completely true for melee rogue in DAI (ranged are more or less fine). Lack of autoattack in PC version, inability to consistently avoid AOE damage and inability to have decent view of battlefield to react on events like "one of newly arrived enemies targeted rogue" makes playing for melee rogue really painful on higher difficulties. Don't sure about barrier, but something definitely must be changed here.

 

Agreed, especially the bold. I ended up turning off friendly fire because, while I could wear a belt of [magic type] resistance and mostly escape unscathed from mage fire, there is no Belt of Iron Bull's Massive F@%#ing Ax Resistance. With the limited visibility during battle, I found it impossible to make sure I was attacking enemies away from where friendly AoE attacks were happening and I got tired of dying.

 

Flanking and attacking from behind does do massive damage when I can manage it. If the AI was a little more "I", I might be willing to run the tank during combat and let the AI run my character...but it's not, and that also kinda takes away the fun of playing my chosen class.

[Sevitan7]

I had a similar idea that Lethys1 had when I noticed the same problems. It might work, but I think we should look at the root of the problem.

 

The problem arises because the game is pretending to be an action-rpg without any real action-rpg mechanics that work. With no defense stat, that rogues usually had in good supply, getting hit means you are hit and take damage. That's pretty bad for a class that has no guard and no con bonuses. This game handles and feels less responsive than DA2, and that game wasn't even an action rpg (despite popular disinformation).

 

To avoid taking damage, you need to physical move out of the way. The game expects you to spend spend talents and a skill slot just to be able to do that. And even then, because of sluggish movement, being stuck in animations, collision detection, and no invincibility frames on evade, you most likely end up getting hit anyway. Can you imagine if Dark Souls expected you to spend 5 levels in dexterity before you can dodge? Or Skyrim asked you to spend 3 talents to be able to block?

 

With regular enemies, this isn't much of an issue, because with good enough gear a party of 4 can kill them pretty quickly even on Nightmare and between stun/knockdown on so many abilities, regular enemies spend a great deal time CC'd.

 

On bosses and CC immune large enemies this doesn't work. Worse, even correct positioning doesn't work, whether to design or bugs I don't know, because of 360 melee aoes (which also punishes with playing more than 1 melee in general). The only fesabile way to deal with them is war of potion attrition, 1 shield tank + 3 ranged, or proper management of multiple barriers.

 

The funny part is designers were at least partially aware of these inherent imbalances in the system. Someone during the development realized that these action mechanics barely work and melee just ends up relaying on health potions to stay in the fight. Damage is essentially unavoidable. So aside from giving so many abilities cc properties to stop regular enemies from doing too much damage, I suspect they added Guard and Barrier, 2 passive numerical defenses in an game trying to be an action rpg, to offset this. Rather than having workable action mechanics, or passive defenses stats that opposes attack values like in the past two games, we have abilities that exist solely to take unavoidable hits. I'm not an expert, but that sounds like a pretty bad recipe for an "action" rpg. I mean, that is a system or resource management and not an action rpg. Like the last two games actually, except with less tactics and choices and even more imbalances.

 

On a side note, on higher difficulties, guard is borderline worthless. It seems to roughly scale as 25% of your max health, and the 25% extra guard passive does not work. On Nightmare, 200 extra hit points usually won't last longer than 1 or 2 hits. And that's with a full guard bar, which isn't always easy to get. For Guard to be useful, you need armor that mitigates so much damage that Guard becomes a moot point. Guard needs to provide significantly more hp to be worthwhile in its current form. Like Barrier, which provides so much extra hp that it's pretty much invulnerability. Ironically enough, most powerful attacks are best dealt with a properly timed Barriers in order to mitigate the damage and not Guard or dodging. Shield Wall works too, which is why best partly comp for bosses/cc immune enemies is simply a shield warrior + 3 ranged.

[Gel214th]

The problem arises because the game is pretending to be an action-rpg without any real action-rpg mechanics that work. With no defense stat, that rogues usually had in good supply, getting hit means you are hit and take damage. That's pretty bad for a class that has no guard and no con bonuses. This game handles and feels less responsive than DA2, and that game wasn't even an action rpg (despite popular disinformation).

 

To avoid taking damage, you need to physical move out of the way. The game expects you to spend spend talents and a skill slot just to be able to do that. And even then, because of sluggish movement, being stuck in animations, collision detection, and no invincibility frames on evade, you most likely end up getting hit anyway. Can you imagine if Dark Souls expected you to spend 5 levels in dexterity before you can dodge? Or Skyrim asked you to spend 3 talents to be able to block?

 

On bosses and CC immune large enemies this doesn't work. Worse, even correct positioning doesn't work, whether to design or bugs I don't know, because of 360 melee aoes (which also punishes with playing more than 1 melee in general). The only fesabile way to deal with them is war of potion attrition, 1 shield tank + 3 ranged, or proper management of multiple barriers.

 

The funny part is designers were at least partially aware of these inherent imbalances in the system. Someone during the development realized that these action mechanics barely work and melee just ends up relaying on health potions to stay in the fight. Damage is essentially unavoidable. So aside from giving so many abilities cc properties to stop regular enemies from doing too much damage, I suspect they added Guard and Barrier, 2 passive numerical defenses in an game trying to be an action rpg, to offset this. Rather than having workable action mechanics, or passive defenses stats that opposes attack values like in the past two games, we have abilities that exist solely to take unavoidable hits. I'm not an expert, but that sounds like a pretty bad recipe for an "action" rpg. I mean, that is a system or resource management and not an action rpg. Like the last two games actually, except with less tactics and choices and even more imbalances.

 

This is so true!

 

http://forum.bioware...agon-age-roots/

 

Said something similar in that thread, but when you lay it out in relation to the Rogue it makes so much sense! 

[Sevitan7]

This is so true!

 

http://forum.bioware...agon-age-roots/

 

Said something similar in that thread, but when you lay it out in relation to the Rogue it makes so much sense! 

 

Yep, I agree completely with your observations, and it makes me sad to see how the game play of this game turned out.

[Sunlight Heart]

Rogue has at least 2 dodge abilities, parry, 2 invisibility abilities, 2 sleep abilities, etc. Rogues in human control don't die because they don't get hit. The only thing remotely dangerous to a rouge is magic and sustained abilities.

[draken-heart]

The issue with people hating rogues seems to be human error. Rogues are literally a mobility class. Always being moving is meant to be their defense if they are melee. Archers and mages Have defense. Barrier is great for warriors. Warriors themselves have guard, but Melee rogues are meant to be the class that gets in, pops a few abilities and gets out for a bit.

[keesio74]

rogues are supposed to be squishy. They are supposed to be very vulerable when in the think of the frey. They are suppsoed to hide, hit and run. The DW Rogue in Origins was overpowered. My only issue is that the tactics view is limited. A DW rogue needs lots of micromanagement to be effective and to do that without losing your mind, we need a better tactic view where you can zoom out to DA:O levels. If I had that, then I could live with my DW rogue. But right not I am frustrated trying to micro and may scrap the DW rogue for something else.

[helpthisguyplease]

You can just have a tank in your party and you backstab everybody with your rogue. The rogue is just the best dps dealer and nothing more.

[LoudAngryJerk]

they dont because they have a high chance to dodge damage wholesale

[Gel214th]

they dont because they have a high chance to dodge damage wholesale

No no, The CLASS does not have a high chance to dodge damage.

 

The PLAYER is responsible for dodging damage, and if you don't use those abilities quickly then you get hit. 

In other games you would be correct, the class would have inherent dodge % and parry % that would mitigate this damage depending on how you gear and level up your character.

 

In DA:I it is all up to you the player to control your Rogue in real time to use Evade, etc. at the right time based on the animations of your opponents. 

That's something that a lot of people are having trouble with. Timed, reflex gaming is not really common for an RPG series with its roots in dungeons and dragons Pen and Paper games. 

 

What we have is closer to a third person action game, or a purely Action RPG. DA:O didn't work that way, DA2 didn't work that way....and people can be excused for not expecting DA:I to have worked that way either. 

[TheFamilyDog]

Kinda surprised there is so much complaining about Rogue. I think it's the most fun character, great for Hard difficulty. Pretty shocked by many of the comments! I think it's great as-is.

[animedreamer]

If you find a fade touch obsidian or onyx i don't remember which or even if either are the right stone, you can generate guard on successful attacks. Add that to a armor or weapon and you're good.

[Terodil]

I don't know if this pertains only to the PC version, but I have noticed that even IF you are on the ball trying to evade, say, AoE damage, oftentimes you simply can't because you're still stuck in a power-up or power-down animation, which prevents you from moving. How often have I frantically hit buttons, only to watch my pretty rogue get her face bashed in by a huge 360° hammer. -- If you can't soak the damage / kill fast enough while a barrier is still up, it oftentimes ends with you either sitting an enemy out entirely or with holding back on attacks / skills, which invalidates your position as a high-dps dealer.

 

Besides, most of the enemies that you can handle with your tools (dashing, stealth, stun) can just as, if not more, easily be handled without a DW rogue. Which leaves the rogue in a precarious position with a low damage-to-risk ratio.

 

To me it just seems as if the DW rogue requires a HUGE amount of micromanagement as opposed to ranged builds. Too huge IMO to be fun... I get headaches playing her. When I rerolled to mage, it seemed as if I was playing a different game.

 

Again though, the PC controls may skew the picture far too much; perhaps the DW rogue would not feel as bad to me if the controls were fixed. But atm, with both wonky controls and questionable utility, I'm staying away from my favourite playstyle =(

[Sevitan7]

If you find a fade touch obsidian or onyx i don't remember which or even if either are the right stone, you can generate guard on successful attacks. Add that to a armor or weapon and you're good.

 

Guard is bored-line worthless as a tool for damage mitigation unless your have ridiculous armor already. It's just a tiny amount extra hitpoints that do almost nothing for your survivability.

 

 

I don't know if this pertains only to the PC version, but I have noticed that even IF you are on the ball trying to evade, say, AoE damage, oftentimes you simply can't because you're still stuck in a power-up or power-down animation, which prevents you from moving. How often have I frantically hit buttons, only to watch my pretty rogue get her face bashed in by a huge 360° hammer. -- If you can't soak the damage / kill fast enough while a barrier is still up, it oftentimes ends with you either sitting an enemy out entirely or with holding back on attacks / skills, which invalidates your position as a high-dps dealer.

 

Besides, most of the enemies that you can handle with your tools (dashing, stealth, stun) can just as, if not more, easily be handled without a DW rogue. Which leaves the rogue in a precarious position with a low damage-to-risk ratio.

 

To me it just seems as if the DW rogue requires a HUGE amount of micromanagement as opposed to ranged builds. Too huge IMO to be fun... I get headaches playing her. When I rerolled to mage, it seemed as if I was playing a different game.

 

Yep, that's exactly my experience, especially on nightmare as I mentioned above. I really wish there was an official clarification if the hitboxes are messed up/bugged or actually incredibly wide and over-compensating for some reason.

[Lethys1]

Because rogues are glass cannons, cabable of the highest dps by far in the game. Giving them barrier would break class balance and there would be no reason to ever pick warrior or mage.

 

honestly, I cannot agree with you.  Archer does more damage based on my own anecdotal experience, even if not from a theoretical standpoint.  Perhaps a non-moving target will be more impacted by dw rogue if flanking, but an archer will always out-dps dw rogues in real gameplay scenarios by a ludicrous amount.  it's to the point that I never have to enter tactical camera on hard difficulty anymore now that I've spec'd archer, vs. nearly every fight with trash mobs even being micromanaged to death literally.
 

archer is also very tac cam friendly, if you need to use it, and dw rogue is not at all.  it doesn't flank for you and it misses abilities constantly if you queue it up and then don't take direct control.  that this happens is yet another failing of the tac cam, but it impacts rogue viability in a huge way.

[sandalisthemaker]

Rogues are amazing.

 

They don't need guard. It's a balancing thing, and they would be insanely powerful if they had it.  You just need to make the most of your mages' barriers.  That said, I sometimes go mage-less and I still manage. You just need to make sure that your threat generation is low. The only issue I've had so far was with the Hand of Korth guy. And only because he was immune to my dirty tricks (poison, fear, taunt).  

 

The 360 degree attacks from 2 handed warriors are an issue, but you just have to time your strikes appropriately. Have your warriors deal with them while you jump in with twin fangs and back off. 

 

You can't play a rogue like a warrior. You need to be mindful and always be aware of what is going on around you. 

[Suhiira]

No no, The CLASS does not have a high chance to dodge damage.

 

The PLAYER is responsible for dodging damage, and if you don't use those abilities quickly then you get hit. 

In other games you would be correct, the class would have inherent dodge % and parry % that would mitigate this damage depending on how you gear and level up your character.

 

In DA:I it is all up to you the player to control your Rogue in real time to use Evade, etc. at the right time based on the animations of your opponents. 

That's something that a lot of people are having trouble with. Timed, reflex gaming is not really common for an RPG series with its roots in dungeons and dragons Pen and Paper games. 

 

What we have is closer to a third person action game, or a purely Action RPG. DA:O didn't work that way, DA2 didn't work that way....and people can be excused for not expecting DA:I to have worked that way either. 

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head.

Someone (probably at EA rather then Bioware) decided the game needed to be an Action RPG.

The problem is "pure" PRGs rely on character skills whereas Action RPGs rely on player ones.  There's no way a game can do both.

[TacoKush]

Rogues are amazing.

 

They don't need guard. It's a balancing thing, and they would be insanely powerful if they had it.  You just need to make the most of your mages' barriers.  That said, I sometimes go mage-less and I still manage. You just need to make sure that your threat generation is low. The only issue I've had so far was with the Hand of Korth guy. And only because he was immune to my dirty tricks (poison, fear, taunt).  

 

The 360 degree attacks from 2 handed warriors are an issue, but you just have to time your strikes appropriately. Have your warriors deal with them while you jump in with twin fangs and back off. 

 

You can't play a rogue like a warrior. You need to be mindful and always be aware of what is going on around you. 

 

found the guy who plays on easy

[Shadow Quickpaw]

My problem: When an enemy (say, a dragon) is building up a move that can easily be avoided (like clawing backwards with a foot) but you are stuck in an attack animation and the can't dodge. And I mean BASIC attack. I can't count the number of times this happened to me as an assassin.