115 réponses à ce sujet

[crusader_bin]

I thought we are talking more about multiplayer. Single player is hilariously easy on all modes. Not to mention ranged attacks are broken, can kill most the mobs before they come close or even without aggro.

I find assassins to be quite good for clearing archers quickly in mp. And generally speed up the process of clearing rooms if the tank gets the aggro or keepers throw barriers.

The biggest threat on highest difficulty imo. 4 or more archers hidden in some bushes un-noticed, can kill whole party and make me do a face palm Short work for rogue though.

[Plouton]

The issue with people hating rogues seems to be human error. Rogues are literally a mobility class. Always being moving is meant to be their defense if they are melee.

 

I don't know how it meant to work, but I know what really happens when I'm trying to move AND do some decent damage in same time as melee rogue. Movement with pressed "attack" button is severely hindered. And even when button is released there is about 1-2 seconds timeframe when attack animation continues, and character can't move properly in this time. So this "always being moving" thing just don't work if you want to consistently do damage and avoid dangers. It also often don't work if you just trying to do damage, but opponent is moving - you lose flanking, hit empty space, etc., and can't move back into position quickly. Yes, you can run around, survive and hit target by some attacks and combos, even on Nightmare - but switching on ranged rogue shows what DPS REALLY means.

 

P.S. I'm talking about PC version.

[animedreamer]

my melee rogue seems to excel when the fighters are doing their job of drawing aggro, in which case they become a terror. between Stealth, Flank Attack or Stealth Spinning Blade followed by a autoattack chain my dual dagger rogue does pretty well if not great, i use stealth and evade more for the combat bonuses than the actual need to escape, cause again my rogue has reduced threat and those skills nearly drop threat down again even more so, finally can't stress enough how important it is that the Warriors are doing their job by challenging everyone or using that AOE version of challenge which name i forget on my current iron bull build, I have both of those abilities leveled up, gave bull the chain grab and boot ability and to be honest i love it, of course im not playing a Melee rogue on that one but Sera is and she does alright even though its the AI controlling her actions and choosing her methods.

 

i should upload some gameplay video of how i control my melee rogue. It started out rough, don't get me wrong, and against equal strong opponents i might take some licks but for the most part unless the enemy is higher level than us and we aren't prepared for a long drawn out fight, most encounters are easy.

[Aethena]

The problem with Rogue.. Is a few things.

 

1) They were made as Rogues should be made. Which is.. If you want to avoid damage.. move.. The Bosses AOE melee strikes are easy to see coming. They are a slow "wind up" move. Generally they'll make a slow hit on your tank, then hit behind him, then swing around. In that first obvious hit, move back. simple.

 

2) The main problem is people expecting to be able to just stand there and have multiple abilities/passives to make them go trololol you tried to hit me, like most other games that give you wins on a silver platter. This is why Rogues, etc. were/are OP in most games.. They are given stupid high DPS, then every way imaginable to avoid damage ontop of that with absolutely no need to think past "oh hit x and I avoid everything"

 

3) The -MAIN- problem is the game mechanics itself however, and the AI.

 

- The AI will not move to avoid damage. Making melee AI rogues... potion sinks and ultimately helpless when it comes down too surviving in modes past Normal.

 

- The limited Camera, etc. makes it hard even in the birds eye view to really see what's going on sometimes. (Especially for me and my screen, non HD t.v. with black bars above and below the screen, can't even read most text in the game). Resulting in your Rogue getting roflstomped by new AI that come in during the heat of the battle. While I like this, and don't want it removed, at the same time. The above problem results in melee Rogues again getting roflstomped.

 

- With that being said, even with it being an "action" RPG. It doesn't mean passives can't still be available. I do think Rogues should still at least have some form of passive dodging. nothing OP like 25%, but somewhere around 10-15%, 15% being tops, would help them somewhat, as well as a tweak to the AI's logic when confronting bosses, etc so they at least attempt to move out of the way..

 

- OH yea... and stopping the AI rogue from constantly wanting to ass rape your tank constantly cuz apparently he thinks standing next to the tank 24/7 is the best place to be...

[BroBear Berbil]

There seems to be a lot of focus on manually controlling the rogue from the "it's fine" crowd. That would make sense to me if this was, say, Guild Wars 2 but this is a game where you have to control a party so there has to be a passive way to avoid damage. It's not all about the PC, don't forget Cole (heh). I found Cole to be pretty much useless on Nightmare specced with subterfuge and assassin skills. He was just chugging potions like mad.

 

Even manually controlling a rogue, it doesn't have the same kind of mobility, tools, or passives as a Thief in GW2. Hell, you get locked in animations a good bit of the time and you have to stop attacking just to move. You can't even strafe around a target while attacking to flank it - for some reason archers got that ability.

 

I like the resource idea in the OP or maybe an attack on a medium cd that could give you an evade buff, which ideally would eat a 360 attack from rage demons, brutes, bears, etc. if your tank is keeping everything else busy.

 

Unfortunately, while DA:I resembles an action MMO, it isn't, so I'm not sure anything would ever be added to the class, but now I have the sudden urge to install GW2 and play my thief again.

[Darkfyre]

supposedly, they make up for the lack of a guard barrier with abilities that let them avoid detection, avoid attracting attention to themselves in combat and evade damage in combat, BUT - in practice, these abilities don't seem to work very well or the AI just isn't using them, because my rogue is CONSTANTLY dying in combat when they shouldn't even be getting hit.

[Hellnhavoc]

I personally love the idea of an evasion meter.  It decreases as dodges occur and builds up real slow, possibly speeding up as time spent not getting hit grows.  This would let you avoid lets say up to 3 attacks but not be anything close to a tank.

[Terodil]

Well, stealth does not protect you from attacks... you'll also have to move. You can make use of that with enemy rogues, too -- if you attack the spot where they stealthed quickly enough, you're probably going to hit them.

 

Yet, somehow this reminds me of the now mythical 'vanish bug' discussion

[Aethena]

There seems to be a lot of focus on manually controlling the rogue from the "it's fine" crowd. That would make sense to me if this was, say, Guild Wars 2 but this is a game where you have to control a party so there has to be a passive way to avoid damage. It's not all about the PC, don't forget Cole (heh). I found Cole to be pretty much useless on Nightmare specced with subterfuge and assassin skills. He was just chugging potions like mad.

 

Even manually controlling a rogue, it doesn't have the same kind of mobility, tools, or passives as a Thief in GW2. Hell, you get locked in animations a good bit of the time and you have to stop attacking just to move. You can't even strafe around a target while attacking to flank it - for some reason archers got that ability.

 

I like the resource idea in the OP or maybe an attack on a medium cd that could give you an evade buff, which ideally would eat a 360 attack from rage demons, brutes, bears, etc. if your tank is keeping everything else busy.

 

Unfortunately, while DA:I resembles an action MMO, it isn't, so I'm not sure anything would ever be added to the class, but now I have the sudden urge to install GW2 and play my thief again.

 

I really hate this whole mentality behind removing "animation lock"... It makes sense.. If you're slashing with a knife, sword, axe, any weapon.. if you want to do REAL damage, if you want to make sure that blade sinks in hard, and deep you're going to put all your weight/momentum into each swing. You're not just going to easily be able to alter your weight, and or move mid swing. I don't get why people hate on animation lock so much. Not only does it make sense, it forces you to consider each swing, just like you would irl.

 

Now I know what people say "oh but but but this isn't RL, I shouldn't have to do anything or think!" Yea well.. get over it. Thinking isn't such a terrible thing. If you don't want to get hit as a Rogue, THINK. Consider your options, and whats at your disposal, go in when its safe, back out when its not.

 

That being said.. the AI is utterly retarded when it comes to Rogue and will not actively move/dodge attacks. That is the problem.. Along with other people not being able to herpa derp through with Rogue and think its broken because they have to think while using it.

[Terodil]

That being said.. the AI is utterly retarded when it comes to Rogue and will not actively move/dodge attacks. That is the problem.. Along with other people not being able to herpa derp through with Rogue and think its broken because they have to think while using it.

If only that were true. I find I'm battling the (PC:KB+M) game controls far more than the game content, and unfortunately, 'thinking' does not help counter 'messed up controls'.

[animedreamer]

for the people who say AI controlled rogues are potion sinks, can I ask if you guys set the melee rogue to emphasize Evade and Stealth, maybe the better word is prioritize. Now im not sure 100% certain that helps as i haven't bothered with the tactics that much outside of making the AI npcs use all their mana and stamina but it would stand to reason it will make them use those skills more often.

[BroBear Berbil]

I really hate this whole mentality behind removing "animation lock"... It makes sense.. If you're slashing with a knife, sword, axe, any weapon.. if you want to do REAL damage, if you want to make sure that blade sinks in hard, and deep you're going to put all your weight/momentum into each swing. You're not just going to easily be able to alter your weight, and or move mid swing. I don't get why people hate on animation lock so much. Not only does it make sense, it forces you to consider each swing, just like you would irl.

 

Now I know what people say "oh but but but this isn't RL, I shouldn't have to do anything or think!" Yea well.. get over it. Thinking isn't such a terrible thing. If you don't want to get hit as a Rogue, THINK. Consider your options, and whats at your disposal, go in when its safe, back out when its not.

 

Oh, so this is about realism is it? I thought realism in combat went out the window in Awakening.

 

We're talking about reacting to a situation (like an enemy cueing a 360 attack), and it's kind of hard to react when you can't move. In reality a bear can't simply stomp the ground and kill everyone around it.

[Eckister]

well .... AOEs often CAN be interrupted (Ive managed that with Flank Attack or Twin Fangs). but the timing has to be right and I agree that playing a melee rogue is VERY stressful. I play on Hard... 
however, getting back to the subject - rogues only have Parry, which is a rather weak thing, hardly comparable with a warriors Shield Wall (which has the ability to turn the warrior into something almost immortal, if used right...) so I TOTALLY agree with Lethys1. if parry offered a "shadow shield" for every blocked blow, I sure wouldnt mind! :-)

[Aethena]

Oh, so this is about realism is it? I thought realism in combat went out the window in Awakening.

 

We're talking about reacting to a situation (like an enemy cueing a 360 attack), and it's kind of hard to react when you can't move. In reality a bear can't simply stomp the ground and kill everyone around it.

It's not hard to react to an enemy winding up an AOE.. stop attacking, and move back. You have enough time if you're paying attention.

[darkmanifest]

1) They were made as Rogues should be made. Which is.. If you want to avoid damage.. move.. The Bosses AOE melee strikes are easy to see coming. They are a slow "wind up" move. Generally they'll make a slow hit on your tank, then hit behind him, then swing around. In that first obvious hit, move back. simple.

 

2) The main problem is people expecting to be able to just stand there and have multiple abilities/passives to make them go trololol you tried to hit me, like most other games that give you wins on a silver platter. This is why Rogues, etc. were/are OP in most games.. They are given stupid high DPS, then every way imaginable to avoid damage ontop of that with absolutely no need to think past "oh hit x and I avoid everything"

 

I play rogue-style characters on other action RPGs, and the dodge mechanic in DA:I is absurd in comparison.  Instead of a tight, rapid, immediately repeatable roll in any direction that can take me around my enemy to start attacking them again from the back, I get Evade, which is some kind of cumbersome slow-mo leap of faith animation that takes me yards away from the guy I'm trying to flank, and has a cooldown (even two seconds can get you killed) with no option to upgrade it away.  Same problem with Flank attack, I need to be in range to stay effective, don't send me fifty feet into the distance and then I have to scuttle back like a goober.  These are not problems that are fixed by better timing.

 

I play to avoid damage, I only attack enemies that are distracted, I focus on taking out weak ranged fighters first and spamming stealth when I pull aggro, I'm always moving, and it makes being melee rogue is fun in other games, including previous DA games.  But none of that works for me in DA:I because the movement is so awkward thanks to the overblown animations.  I feel like this is the first DA game where warriors beat out melee rogues as a class.  I'll roll sword-and-board soon and see how it feels.

[Sartoz]

Its kind of unfortunate if this is the case cause the game is dropping rogue knives all over the place in my game as if its saying "man your two handed warrior sure is boring, you'd be having a lot more fun with this awesome loot if you just played rogue".

 

I'm pretty sure my next Inquisitor is going to be my mage world state though, mages just seem beastly in DA:I.

LOL... happens to me too. Some very high DPS damage one too, like the Blade of Souls with 208 DPS.

[Sartoz]

That would all be true if invisibility always made enemies miss, which it doesn't.  In fact, I constantly get hit even a second or two after going invisible, which should instantly cause enemies to stop attacking.  Flanking angles are too difficult to achieve because the enemies move around too often.  The sleep skill is at best a way to make up for mistakes. And evade gets blocked by enemies due to collision detection.  So if you're around more than a few enemies, you actually cannot escape that way.  And the enemies get to hit you even with you moving away, but your own attacks whiff constantly.

 

So those ideas are just not really valid because they work in theory (which is why I chose the class) but not in practice.  And with so few potions, getting hit once and making one mistake causes you to use a potion, which wastes it (vs. actually mitigating damage with guard and barrier being a real possibility for the two other classes).

Hmm... the computer controlled rouges (ie: Varric and Sara) don't seem to have this problem.  Ah.. wait, they are archers.

My next playthrough I'll make Sara a dual weld dagger bad-ass rogue and see how that works out.

[crusader_bin]

Evasion is all fine, but on perilous multiplayer match, 2 arrows and roge is dead. Demon Commander 1-hit-kills with it's teleport, etc. You just either have a Keeper in the game. Or you don't play assassin. That's about it.

[Plouton]

I really hate this whole mentality behind removing "animation lock"... It makes sense.. If you're slashing with a knife, sword, axe, any weapon.. if you want to do REAL damage, if you want to make sure that blade sinks in hard, and deep you're going to put all your weight/momentum into each swing. You're not just going to easily be able to alter your weight, and or move mid swing.

 

Please, find some videos of actual knife combat and watch, I think it should end this path of discussion. Basically, if you "going to pull all your weight into every swing", you are dead, unless your opponent is completely untrained civilian. Dagger combat in DAI not only not realistic... it's even not cinemaitc.

[Aethena]

Please, find some videos of actual knife combat and watch, I think it should end this path of discussion. Basically, if you "going to pull all your weight into every swing", you are dead, unless your opponent is completely untrained civilian. Dagger combat in DAI not only not realistic... it's even not cinemaitc.

 

Daggers you will be able to react quickly, but that doesn't mean animation lock should be nulled for every class, even Rogue. Whether your a nimble fighter or not, it's stupid to think you can ignore Inertia and common realistic physics such as momentum, and force.

 

Then again, people didn't realistically go into a fight with daggers in a sword fight.... Daggers were used realistically by assassins, against unarmed, un armored targets who didn't know they were coming...

 

So lets switch that fact.. You got a brute in heavy armor, who knows you're there, and though he may lose track of you, he's got ALOT of armor... you're gonna need more than a pissy little swipe or stab to get through his leather/chain mail my friend.

[Aethena]

Daggers you will be able to react quickly, but that doesn't mean animation lock should be nulled for every class, even Rogue. Whether your a nimble fighter or not, it's stupid to think you can ignore Inertia and common realistic physics such as momentum, and force.

 

Then again, people didn't realistically go into a fight with daggers in a sword fight.... Daggers were used realistically by assassins, against unarmed, un armored targets who didn't know they were coming...

 

So lets switch that fact.. You got a brute in heavy armor, who knows you're there, and though he may lose track of you, he's got ALOT of armor... you're gonna need more than a pissy little swipe or stab to get through his leather/chain mail my friend.

 

Sorry felt like I needed to brush up on this quick.

 

If I got into a knife fight with someone, and I was wearing heavy chain mail and heavy leather, and they were in cloth, and I was just as good of a fighter as you, it wouldn't take much for me to make you bleed profusely, however, if you wanted to really cut me to the point of it being fatal, you better be ready to put some real momentum and weight behind your stabs and slashes if you want to get through my Leather/chain.

 

That's the point I was making.

[Gel214th]

Sorry felt like I needed to brush up on this quick.

 

If I got into a knife fight with someone, and I was wearing heavy chain mail and heavy leather, and they were in cloth, and I was just as good of a fighter as you, it wouldn't take much for me to make you bleed profusely, however, if you wanted to really cut me to the point of it being fatal, you better be ready to put some real momentum and weight behind your stabs and slashes if you want to get through my Leather/chain.

 

That's the point I was making.

*chuckle*

 

What if I had imbued my armor with Silverite, and had a +20% armor penetration on my daggers??   

Reality in fantasy magic games to explain game mechanics...cute.  

[MuhSHEEN]

Sorry felt like I needed to brush up on this quick.

 

If I got into a knife fight with someone, and I was wearing heavy chain mail and heavy leather, and they were in cloth, and I was just as good of a fighter as you, it wouldn't take much for me to make you bleed profusely, however, if you wanted to really cut me to the point of it being fatal, you better be ready to put some real momentum and weight behind your stabs and slashes if you want to get through my Leather/chain.

 

That's the point I was making.

...? If your were in a knife fight against someone wearing chain mail you wouldn't aim for the torso. The guy wearing cloth is going to be faster and I assume he would at least be smart enough to go for the areas where your armor isn't protecting you. 

 

As for the topic, no, rogues don't need a guard/barrier equivalent. Mobility is a part of their arsenal and people can't seem to get it into their heads that melee rogues are SUPPOSED to be more hands on. They aren't SUPPOSED to be a class you can give a command to and then leave them alone. When it comes to DAI, mage/shield warriors are the "beginner" classes while melee rogues are the "advanced" class. 

 

Yes I beat Nightmare with double dagger rogue as my character

Yes my rogue required more micromanaging then my shield and mage companions

No he wasn't drinking health pots every 5 mins

No, I am not very good at tactical RPGS. I just happen to like Dragon Age

 

The single target DPS of a Rogue with double dagger/subterfuge/assassin specialization is insane and more then makes up for the difficulty of using it. 

[TacoKush]

 Yes I beat Nightmare with double dagger rogue as my character

 

 

pics or it didn't happen

[Araedros]

give them an evasion mechanism