115 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexMBrennan]

And I mean BASIC attack. I can't count the number of times this happened to me as an assassin.

All attacks lock you in place, making positioning cumbersome (but I noticed that keeping W+LMB pressed tends to keep you in melee range)

 

 

 

As for the topic, no, rogues don't need a guard/barrier equivalent. Mobility is a part of their arsenal and people can't seem to get it into their heads that melee rogues are SUPPOSED to be more hands on. They aren't SUPPOSED to be a class you can give a command to and then leave them alone. When it comes to DAI, mage/shield warriors are the "beginner" classes while melee rogues are the "advanced" class.

You know that the game has enemy archers, right? Unless stealth allows you to evade all attacks from all enemies every time you're gonna lose health in every encounter, and need to waste one of your eight potions sooner or later.

[Frozenkex]

try giving rogue armor or a weapon with fade touched masterwork 3-5 guard on hit, thats enough.

[animedreamer]

give them an evasion mechanism

i think it's called evade, and stealth.

[Lethys1]

i think it's called evade, and stealth.

 

Evade gets blocked by enemies via collision detection, defeating the purpose entirely.  Stealth doesn't make enemies miss a hit if they were in the animation already, even if it requires them travelling many feet, again defeating the purpose.  Stealth needs to be made far too quickly in advance for a game with "twitch" skills like shield wall in mind.  

 

Additionally, evade doesn't cause you to avoid damage on the last hit as you use evade, again defeating the purpose and not performing as described by the skill in the tree.  Using weapons crafted with +guard is not an acceptable solution to a balance issue, it is just a workaround at best and yet another example of imbalance at worst.

[HozzMidnight]

Just because one class has something does not mean another should.  Where does that end?  Classes already seem watered down to me.

 

Rogues have Stealth and threat reduction abilities.  That is what they get instead of Guard.  And, FWIW, my Rogues die less than my DPS specced Iron Bull.

[Lethys1]

Just because one class has something does not mean another should.  Where does that end?  Classes already seem watered down to me.

 

Rogues have Stealth and threat reduction abilities.  That is what they get instead of Guard.  And, FWIW, my Rogues die less than my DPS specced Iron Bull.

 

I very clearly outline my reasons for the change.  I don't say they should have it just because the other classes have something similar.  The class is unplayable, and that DPS warrior is equally unplayable without immense micromanaging should not be an argument against fixing melee rogues.  Try playing the game at hard difficulty.  I've played with mage, archer, and dps warrior and all three do more damage and are easier to control in 3rd person.  No class works well with just Tac Cam.

[animedreamer]

you're talking about your rogue already being detected and being swarmed by enough enemies so that he can't use evade or stealth to get out of the way, that sounds like a fault on your own tactics. Why are you standing toe to toe with enemies in the first place? You are a rogue and what do rogues do? They do it from behind, where the sun don't shine. If you're charging in before the warrior taunts or challenges a opponent and start trying to melee them you're doing it wrong. 

 

Does this mean no rogue can ever initiate combat? No that's not what im saying, but there is a time and place for everything, and if the enemy is one of those types that isn't going down in two hits or you don't have skills that can get you in and out of melee fast, then don't do melee until the Warrior has pulled aggro.

 

Flank attack is probably the go to attack if you aren't sure how to play the melee rogue in DA:I, if you evolved it it automatically stealths you after the two hit combo which allows you to get out of melee range most of the time, timing aside the enemy will usually have to turn to face you if it notices you at all. (There are passive stealth abilities that reduce threat for simply having them and this mean sometimes enemies will outright ignore you if they lose track of you, hence Flank attack's auto stealth)

 

Flank attack is also instantaneous teleportation behind or through a target, if you see a creaturing going to attack you and you have it ready or you don't think evade is a option, use flank attack. If you are really desperate, Flank Attack then follow up with Evade (assuming you evade through an opening) you should have no one on you at that point as flank attack stealthed you, evade left a decoy and reduced threat. 

 

Here's a turn by turn for most of my adventures as a Melee Rogue.

 

1.) Stealth when approaching unaware enemies.

2.) Use Spinning Blades on unsuspecting enemy. 

3.) Use Evade to get back out of range OR use Flank Attack if enough stamina is available to gain stealth again and walk away if target hasn't been challenged or taunted.

 

Wash and Repeat as necessary. I thought i had a video of one of my game plays as my melee rogue on my PC i was going to upload it, but apparently i didn't record it. However I'm willing to do this if it's necessary.

[Nightdragon8]

you're talking about your rogue already being detected and being swarmed by enough enemies so that he can't use evade or stealth to get out of the way, that sounds like a fault on your own tactics. Why are you standing toe to toe with enemies in the first place? You are a rogue and what do rogues do? They do it from behind, where the sun don't shine. If you're charging in before the warrior war shouts or challenges a opponent and start trying to melee them.. you're doing it wrong. 

 

Does this mean no rogue can ever initiate combat... no that's not what im saying, but there is a time a place for everything, and if the enemy is one of those types that isn't going to do down in two hits or you don't have skills that can get you in and out of melee fast, then don't do melee until the Warrior has pulled aggro.

 

Flank attack is probably the go to attack if you aren't sure how to play the melee rogue in DA:I, if you evolved it it automatically stealths you after the two hit combo which allows you to get out of melee range most of the time, timing aside the enemy will usually have to turn to face you if it notices you at all. (There are passive stealth abilities that reduce threat for simply having them and this mean sometimes enemies will out right ignore you if they lose track of you, hence Flank attack's auto stealth)

 

Flank attack is also instantaneous teleportation behind or through a target, if you see a creaturing going to attack you and you have it ready or you don't think evade is a option, use flank attack. If you are really desperate, Flank Attack then follow up with Evade (assuming you evade through an opening) you should have no one on you at that point as flank attack stealthed you, evade left a decoy and reduced threat. 

 

Here's a turn by turn for most of my adventures as a Melee Rogue.

 

1.) Stealth when approaching unaware enemies.

2.) Use Spinning Blades on unsuspecting enemy. 

3.) Use Evade to get back out of range OR use Flank Attack if enough stamina is available to gain stealth again and walk away if target hasn't been challenged or taunted.

 

Wash and Repeat as necessary. I thought i had a video of one of my game plays as my melee rogue on my PC i was going to upload it, but apparently i didn't record it. However I'm willing to do this if it's necessary.

please do and also have int he video how you deal with large guys with 360 attacks as well

[Zhen Dil Oloth]

please do and also have int he video how you deal with large guys with 360 attacks as well

???

 

Most brutish opponents will have a "tell" letting you know when they will swing their weapon. Essentially you will see them start to swing back their weapon letting you know that they are about to do their big attack.

 

When you see the Big Guy about to do his 360 attack..... use evade to get out of the way. 

 

Or if you are blocked by ennemies and cannot use evade for some reason.... use Flank Attack instead.

 

Flank Attack is good to attack an opponent.... but it is also good to evade an opponent's attack.

It is a GREAT multipurpose ability. 

[GipsyDangeresque]

I didn't read much of this thread yet, but this has conundrum has been something that I've thought about before and I did want to contribute an idea. I don't know if it's been brought up yet:

 

Ninjas in the Final Fantasy series have built up "utsusemi" in the past. This rendered the next instance of damage they would have taken to 0, as their enemy struck an illusion/after-image instead of their true body. They could bulid up a stack of utusemi in Final Fantasy XI, up to 5 in fact (meaning they are immune to the next 5 instances of damage taken.)

 

 

So, why don't we take the "evade" ability that rogues have had in the past Dragon Age games and make it a survivability resource to them? Have some attacks build up "dodge" marks on their health bars that are depleted to depict the rogue evading and predicting attacks that might be aimed at them.

 

Imagine if Twin Fangs had an upgrade that said "if you strike the enemy from flanking, then you gain 2 dodges."

 

Perhaps the Duelist specialization could focus on additional ways to generate these dodges while their enemy is facing them head-on, whilst rogues generally must enter stealth or attack from behind to gain that protection.

 

 

The class would still be very vulnerable to damage-over-time, though. I think that kind of damage would ignore the dodging stacks altogether, not depleting them but also not being reduced by them.

[Zhen Dil Oloth]

Reading this thread.... I am reminded of one thing....

 

People need to learn to play a Rogue. 

 

Sadly it is nothing new. 

 

Wayyyy back when..... when playing D&D.... most players had a tough time grasping how to play a Rogue (known as a Thief all wayyy back then). 

 

Usually they would end up playing it as a Fighter class.... and would complain that their Rogue was "useless".

 

And trying to explain to them that the problem was NOT the Rogue..... it was the player. 

 

Funny how many decades later.... we see history repeat itself. 

[animedreamer]

please do and also have int he video how you deal with large guys with 360 attacks as well

Well im uploading the first video demonstration right now. This video I have to admit is in fallow mire which i have skipped for whatever reason but im using it to demonstrate the tactics. I am fairly high to mid level i guess (lv 14) with similar gear, so the fight is going to be quick but i employ all the tactics i mentioned above in some form or another, and it's long enough for you to see what im talking about. Take it for what it's worth and build and improve on it.

 

One thing I didn't do is use evade to avoid an attack and i will explain why, i sometimes use evade just to 1.) Get away and reassess the situation to the point it's become kind of reflex sometimes, I do this even if im not in trouble, also i have the passive upgrade which increases your weapon damage when you've used evade recently. Still you'll notice outside of accidently standing on one of those rift eruptions i took no damage from the mobs.

[Commander Michael]

Playing on Nightmare + FF.

 

After hearing a lot of complaints about melee rogues, I decided to bring Cole with me on a mission (speced in only dual wield and stealth, no assassin).

 

To be honest, if your tank is doing her job there shouldn't be much problem. Cole wasn't taking any damage (because stealth + evade really make him inconspicious in combat) + he was also having barrier alot as he was close to Cassandra. I think the problem people are having is that they need WAY more micromanaging than any other class. If I WASN'T manually controlling Cole, I think he would've gotten into trouble a lot more. Still, his DPS was really nice, and I mostly used him to hunt the ranged enemies (after they have been taunted of course).

 

You can always craft 2 daggers with "on hit gain guard" to get something; but as I said, it's not even necessary.

 

Overall, they do well without another health bar. Stealth is basically immunity to damage for 30 seconds. If you control them yourself, they'll be your best asset. If you want another AI controlled party member, bring an archer.

[BroBear Berbil]

 If I WASN'T manually controlling Cole, I think he would've gotten into trouble a lot more.

 

Overall, they do well without another health bar. Stealth is basically immunity to damage for 30 seconds. If you control them yourself, they'll be your best asset. If you want another AI controlled party member, bring an archer.

 

That seems to be the consensus. The thing is, I'm not sure melee rogue is really worth the effort over just being an archer. Archers have very little to worry about, do high damage, and have 100% dps uptime. Normally I'd scoff at going ranged because it's easier and safer; I tend to play melee characters in action MMOs and the like but there they always felt like they were worth the extra risk and that I could move around easily enough that it felt fair.

 

Melee rogue seems to be about unloading burst and backing off. When I try to do basic attacks, that's when things go bad. Tanks just move around way too much, and movement isn't fluid when you can't strafe and attack.

[animedreamer]

 

how i play my rogue.

[tomkaa988]

seriously!, rogues lack actually hitting the frikkin enemy!!! its easy to dodge with cloack but fu***, all i be hitting is air inches away from the enemys back cause their mindlessly running away...\no love for the rogues

i feel ya bro 

[Spenzor Again]

Agree with opening post, the melee rogue needs some love. Compaired to DA2 inquisition rogues are worthless. Please un-nerf them and rebuild so they have some ability to evade . . . Or working stealth, smoke bomb escape . . . But then again this stuff would be best with an action cue or customized AI via tactics. But its all so dumbed down. This is very Beta testy.

[Aurok]

Playing as a melee rogue on hard and just got to Skyhold. Unless it gets significantly harder going forward, this game would be a joke if rogue had a Guard equivalent as standard. With the auto crit, flank and stealth bonuses you can do an insane amount of damage with combos, and that's even before you get to the really powerful specialization stuff.

[animedreamer]

i think people are being to judgemental in favor autosave. The new combat system isn't suppose to hold your hand and make secret rolls behind the scene in order for you to survive, that was DA:O problem. In DA2 you didn't have full control over evade as it was just a backflip and possibly a decoy but didn't promise you true negation of threat and if surrounded pretty much didn't do anything for you. If anything this game is asking that you play a little more close to the core class idea. I haste to say the game is more challenging because that can vary from person to person, but the game works the way it does not because they didn't experiment and play it themselves but because it satisfied the different types of playstyles they wanted in the game. The Rogue is very much like the stealth game characters from any other action game, or action rpg game, all about knowing when and where to strike your opponents, and using trickery and shadow to do the most damage.

[Gel214th]

i think people are being to judgemental in favor autosave. The new combat system isn't suppose to hold your hand and make secret rolls behind the scene in order for you to survive, that was DA:O problem. In DA2 you didn't have full control over evade as it was just a backflip and possibly a decoy but didn't promise you true negation of threat and if surrounded pretty much didn't do anything for you. If anything this game is asking that you play a little more close to the core class idea. I haste to say the game is more challenging because that can vary from person to person, but the game works the way it does not because they didn't experiment and play it themselves but because it satisfied the different types of playstyles they wanted in the game. The Rogue is very much like the stealth game characters from any other action game, or action rpg game, all about knowing when and where to strike your opponents, and using trickery and shadow to do the most damage.

 

Do you understand what pen and paper roleplaying games mechanics are?

 

The "new" combat system has very little in common with any Roleplaying game system. 

 

It relies on reflex, and timed button presses by the player to be successful. 

 

That's not a tactical RPG system, that is an ACTION GAME system. 

 

And that is where we are having the divergence between players. Console players new to the series are embracing it as an action game, similar to call of duty, shadows of mordor, or Diablo III. 

 

Players who read that this game would return to the series' roots of DA:O were expecting something completely different. A tactical camera, and that twitch based gameplay will never work together, and is not comparable to what we had in either DA:O or DA2. 

 

For example, in Mass Effect 3 there are no "reflex" saves required by the AI, or the Player. The AI positions itself, sure, and tends to act fairly intelligently most of the time. And the player can concentrate on themselves, and make use of AI powers. That works, everything is built around the fact that it is essentially a real time pause, first person shooter. in DA:I where people are getting tripped up is that on the one hand they want a deep strategy experience, but on the other the game is really built to support controling one character with a gamepad and button mashing. 

[animedreamer]

even in action games there are tactics, knowing when to move in and out of combat is still a tactic, reflexive play style or not you need to figure out what works and what doesn't. The game didn't promise to be a Pen and Paper RPG where so some secret rolls are done for you in order for you to rest on your laurels and hope you survive, like i said that was DA:O. This isn;t DA:O, the game requires you to actually play it, and understand what's going on. This isn't a autobattle autosave game like previous DA games. 

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

fwiw, I crafted a pair of dual-blade daggers for Cole, one of which had Guard gain, and one of which had a chance to trigger Hidden Blades. He's usually the party member who takes the least damage now, and does the most. For tactics, I generally stealth him then send him after archers at first, then move on to others when all the outliers are dead. As long as I time my evades right, he's fine.

 

You do need to pay attention to enemy tells, but that's the same with most classes, I find. 

[crusader_bin]

Can you craft guard on hit and abilities like that in multiplayer as well? All i've seen are materials for attack, resistances, flanking, etc.

I recently built an assassin, does solid damage, often becomes highest DPS, good for clearing out the archers (the main reason anyone might fail any mission, especially higher difficulties).

Has drawbacks, relies on blockers and/or barrier, but overall decent character.

[Jackal19851111]

Use evade, seriously, mobility/squishiness problem solved.

 

I can solo dragons with my DW rogue, doesn't take long either once you have 360 DPS dual-blades and your skills maxed. Sure it can kill me in like 5-6 hits but - I don't get hit. I like the rogues the way they are but that's just me.

 

If you really want to tank though, just make daggers with fade-touched obsidian with the guard-on-hit bonus.

[Lethys1]

 

how i play my rogue.

 

I honestly believe this proves my point.  Your dps is significantly lower (as was mine) than after I switched to archer.  No movement necessary, easily avoid damage, constantly hitting enemies, an insta-kill skill off the bat which you can use twice as a Tempest spec, and it will put enemies to sleep if they're too high HP to die for 20 seconds or until hit again.  So either position a rogue behind a ranged and attempt to kill him, then re-enter stealth, or use literally one skill to take out that ranged opponent with far more consistency and accuracy.  (the skill is I believe called Full Draw, it's the one with the heart icon).

 

Yeah, you're not the rogue prophet.  You've not unlocked some method of playing which is superior to the rest of us.  This is all obvious and what everyone is doing.  You aren't doing nearly as much damage as a 2h warrior, or an archer, or as much damage as a good mage spec.  That fight took way longer than any fight I've done of equal size as a mage or an archer, you had to be way more active and you had to position yourself with fiddly controls to even come close to doing the kind of damage any other damage dealing spec can.

 

Do me a favor and just play as Iron Bull for an afternoon and see how clearly superior he is to anyone if micromanaged extensively.  Leave him to the AI and he'll die in seconds, but if you're so interested in balance as it relates to twitch based mechanics than he's the clear example of why the game is flawed.  Also, watch the AI control your inquisitor with no idea of what flanking even is, and only do it by coincidence when that skill pops.  Why do you think that skill is even in the game?  It's because of how difficult it is to flank just using stealth alone, even with the ability to pass through enemies entirely.

 

Let me explain the point here: I'm not saying rogue is impossible.  I'm saying it sucks compared to other classes and feels weak.  Yes I could probably have beaten the game as a rogue, but the fact is that the low dps makes it so unsatisfying and makes me feel inefficient as a player.  Again, none of the things you did are so amazing or unique or special.  We've all been playing the class the way it's obviously built, and it just isn't a good class.  Not to mention that no one is hurt more by the 8 skill limit than dw rogues.

 

The other point I want to make is that this game is far, far more twitch-based and timing based with skills than tactical, as it was advertised as being.  It's kind of insane that this is how the game was marketed.  Advertise an action experience if you want that for your game, because of action interested gamers think this is a tactical experience than you've literally failed everyone via marketing or the product itself.