115 réponses à ce sujet

[Spenzor Again]

Okay, after playing with rogues some more, they arent bad! Actually they kinda destroy. I sometimes need to take direct control to pull off the tactics i want, but stealthing in, sucker punching, crowd contro, and then leaping to a same distance is all there.

That escape leap, the rogue jumps to wherever you tell them. That's awesome! Hey, escape the fight by vaulting up onto that wall. Nailed it! Now toss a grenade!

Yep. Falling in love all over again.

[Coyote X Starrk]

Why do Rogues not have a "Guard" or shield equivalent? 

 

Because they are Rogues. 

 

Your job is to stealth and then strike out of the blue and get away in order to strike again. Not to stand in the middle of everything soaking up hits. If you are taking hits or standing in the middle of fights then you are playing your rogue incorrectly. 

 

I played until level 15 as a Dagger Rogue and had no issues with taking damage or needing any kind of barrier and I was a VERY average Rogue at the time. The warrior is the ONLY class that should be able to build up any sort of defense or shield through combat. 

 

It is the only thing that separates the warrior from the other classes. I take solace in the fact that most likely that fact will not be changing anytime soon. 

[THE_ANGRY_GAMER]

Why do Rogues not have a "Guard" or shield equivalent? 

 

Because they are Rogues. 

 

Your job is to stealth and then strike out of the blue and get away in order to strike again. Not to stand in the middle of everything soaking up hits. If you are taking hits or standing in the middle of fights then you are playing your rogue incorrectly. 

 

I played until level 15 as a Dagger Rogue and had no issues with taking damage or needing any kind of barrier and I was a VERY average Rogue at the time. The warrior is the ONLY class that should be able to build up any sort of defense or shield through combat. 

 

It is the only thing that separates the warrior from the other classes. I take solace in the fact that most likely that fact will not be changing anytime soon. 

 

This. I've given Cole a dagger that can build guard and he's basically unstoppable now unless I let him get in REALLY hairy situations. 

[Efvie]

Yeah, I have Guard on one dagger, too…

 

…

 

Anyway, in tracking down the Banter bug I’ve posted a few DW Rogue videos on Twitch if anybody happens to want to watch: http://www.twitch.tv...past_broadcasts—KB+M, too!

[BanditGR]

People don't seem to get it, though it has been iterated on numerous occasions in this thread. YES, you can actually play a DW rogue and be EFFECTIVE, even on Hard and Nightmare ! Congratulations. You haven't reinvented the wheel. Many people have done it and are doing this right now. Pick a weak opponent, stealth and take him down in a few hits, while covering your escape. Eventually you are going to hit enemies with barriers, stun/impairment immunities at which point get used to using evade and stealth running around like headless chicken, trying to reposition in order to flank (hoping you won't hit thin air and some strikes will actually connect), hoping that your specials won't miss, while your companions are cleaning house. Oh yeah, on a side note, you can use the tac cam and watch your rogue spin around an enemy while sitting DIRECTLY next to him and pointing at his back, until the AI locates that "sweet spot" it needs to perform twin fangs (and not only). Sometimes you will even watch your rogue get hit in mid air while evading (yes it can happen) from an opponent that does 360 damage, due to the lack or invincibility frames. Or worse, trying to evade BUT a very small rock behind him stops him dead in his tracks, when that darkspawn hammer/demon whip comes down for the inevitable and inescapable damage. Great rogue gameplay from Bioware.

Point of the matter is. You are NOT necessarily performing better than a Tempest or Assassin speced archer rogue. On top of this you don't even come close to the survivability of an archer or his damage downtime, which is usually zero or close to it, in any case much lower than that of a dual wielder. Actually, you can't even match a properly speced 2H warrior that guess what ? Can close distance much more effectively and as an added bonus generate guard while doing it, without having to waste resources to craft dual blades with guard on hit (which as had been stated doesn't do much on nightmare on an inherently low armored class). Oh yeah, he wears heavy armor too

So it all boils down to this simple question. Why go into the all the trouble of playing DW when ranged is simply just as effective (if not more) and MUCH less cumbersome to play ? Don't ask me. I wouldn't know, since I elected to play DW as well. Had I known though where I was getting into, I would have respeced long ago. Unfortunately I was already on a high level when reality started to kick in, so I decided to roll with it and hope for the best.

[Sunlight Heart]

Everyone saying "put guard on hit on your daggers" is really just proving the flawed system.

[CitizenThom]

And now I'm considering re-rolling... or burning a couple skill points on some archery abilities (but if I do that what's the point of bringing Sera or Varric?)

 

Twin fangs knocks enemies down, but most of the time I'm waiting on an NPC to incapacitate the enemy, and I keep stealth up for when I have to duck enmity.

 

But yeah, they should add a passive that allows rogues DR when flanking, or under a certain enmity threshold... something along those lines. Fits the character and doesn't reduce them to picking flowers in some fights.

 

p.s. isn't this all Karzak's fault? (for all of you who were on the Black Isle boards in the Baldur's Gate days) Maybe Bioware just nerfed the DW rogue to spite him. (Just kidding of course)

[TheJediSaint]

Whatever happened to dodging?

[animedreamer]

Everyone saying "put guard on hit on your daggers" is really just proving the flawed system.

you make it sound like its exclusive to rogues, i have a knight protector  who uses the same step, even though she doesn't need it, and like many well played DW rogues its just extra frosting. Its there as a safety precaution not because its needed in order to play the game. You dont need seat belts or airbags in your car either, but its good that you do just in case you do get into an accident.

[Trickshaw]

The moment I started using double bladed daggers my Rogue experience changed drastically. The AoE component is, IMO, the only way this class is playable. I stopped missing every other attack and now only miss every 3rd or 4th attack. The lunging auto attacks are just completely obtuse and hinders game play more than anything.

[animedreamer]

And now I'm considering re-rolling... or burning a couple skill points on some archery abilities (but if I do that what's the point of bringing Sera or Varric?)

 

Twin fangs knocks enemies down, but most of the time I'm waiting on an NPC to incapacitate the enemy, and I keep stealth up for when I have to duck enmity.

 

But yeah, they should add a passive that allows rogues DR when flanking, or under a certain enmity threshold... something along those lines. Fits the character and doesn't reduce them to picking flowers in some fights.

 

p.s. isn't this all Karzak's fault? (for all of you who were on the Black Isle boards in the Baldur's Gate days) Maybe Bioware just nerfed the DW rogue to spite him. (Just kidding of course)

 

Except you don't need to hold back or wait if you don't want to, that's just stylistic choice or because you are on cooldown, you can still wail on enemies who are already engaged with other characters. If you do it from the side or behind  you get a flank damage bonus which is rogues primary way of doing high damage. 

 

Also you don't have to take either of the weapon specific trees, you can still be a effective archer or DW rogue without every taking anything from the archer or dagger trees, especially in the case of the DW rogue, as i've set Sera to use the that shadow stealth tree and the poison line in the other three and she worked out fine if not more so because of how broken toxic cloud is.

[MacroN0va]

There seems to be a lot of focus on manually controlling the rogue from the "it's fine" crowd. That would make sense to me if this was, say, Guild Wars 2 but this is a game where you have to control a party so there has to be a passive way to avoid damage. It's not all about the PC, don't forget Cole (heh). 

 

I think this hits it on the head. All the gameplay footage I've seen of dual wield rogues is in regular camera mode, and the player allows the AI to completely control the companions. Using the tactical camera and/or any amount of micromanagement of your allies seems to be out of the question for this class, which is not acceptable. Every class should be viable for both play styles. 

[animedreamer]

I think this hits it on the head. All the gameplay footage I've seen of dual wield rogues is in regular camera mode, and the player allows the AI to completely control the companions. Using the tactical camera and/or any amount of micromanagement of your allies seems to be out of the question for this class, which is not acceptable. Every class should be viable for both play styles. 

except i've let the rogues go full AI while playing playing a mage and they've done fine, and im again talking about DW Sera or Coles. Which is why im not positive people are using the disabled, enabled, prefered options wisely, or setting the setting the mana/stamina use to 0% I will not that in this instance i usually have parry for Sera and Cole but i thought that was obviously a good skill to take if you wanted a duelist type of rogue.

[Nightdragon8]

except i've let the rogues go full AI while playing playing a mage and they've done fine, and im again talking about DW Sera or Coles. Which is why im not positive people are using the disabled, enabled, prefered options wisely, or setting the setting the mana/stamina use to 0% I will not that in this instance i usually have parry for Sera and Cole but i thought that was obviously a good skill to take if you wanted a duelist type of rogue.

then teach us then please, because so far Cole is just a massive potion sink when it comes to AI control and bad guys with AOE damage.

 

And please don't say aynthing about "put guard on hit on items" because again its just making the OP point that Rogues NEED something

[animedreamer]

didn't i just say what i did with her? invest in evolved parry, prefer parry, go with the poison line of skills,evade and its passive, evolve stealth, twin fang and its passive, this was for a DW Rogue Sera, now if your warrior is capable of AOE War Shout and Challenge Sera should work with them reasonably well, you can also set her to follow whoever the tank is.

 

She also has evasion in my game.

[CitizenThom]

I'm currently using Serah as an archer, but I am only using the knockdown ability from that tree. The rest is poison and stealth. I agree that those trees are more important than the weapon trees.

 

That said... it's the aoe attacks that are the problem for a DW rogue. They have no way of counteracting an aoe attack even if they don't have enmity. That's why there should be a passive with some sort of DR for flanking or low enmity rogues... to protect them from aoe attacks, not from when they draw agro.