42 réponses à ce sujet

[VegetaForce]

Bioware believes we are interested in doing original research in to Thedas. I doubt 1% of the people who play this game have every done original research in real world history. This accounts for first-hand sources: reading letters, taking accounts of specific events from someone, piecing together history from dry accounts of entities that are just names until you read many documents.

This is were DA:I is way weaker than Skyrim. Almost every book in Skyrim is either a funny or interesting story, or an overview of events from an in-game historian. You are playing a game, not becoming an expert researcher in to events that never happened.

How do you know history? You read history books or popular books from people who have done all the first-hand research already (and they probably got most of it second-hand too). You want to piece together the story? You read history books from different people who have different biases. Read a book on how great Christopher Columbus was, and read A People's History of the United States. There, you can get perspective without having to pour through the letters of people of the time, you get the vital information from people motivated to find it for different reasons.

That is why, even though I played the first two games, I wanted Kotaku's hilarious summary of what Dragon Age is all about. http://kotaku.com/a-...-age-1658487212

This one area is just awful, otherwise, the game is spectacular.

[Vapaa]

This is were DA:I is way weaker than Skyrim. Almost every book in Skyrim is either a funny or interesting story, or an overview of events from an in-game historian. You are playing a game, not becoming an expert researcher in to events that never happened.

 

Sounds also like DA...you get loads of tales, songs in game history texts that adds flavor to the universe, that make it seems alive.

[JeffZero]

Hm, well, my major (and eventually, profession) involves nonstop historical and cultural research. I never get tired of it because it fascinates me endlessly. The myriad parallels I find between Thedas and Earth, combined with the twists BioWare's clearly-studied authors instill, keep me almost as giddy with each passing turn of the codex.

I recall having a lot of fun with Skyrim's veritable library of available data, too -- perhaps even more, given how much there is. But ultimately I find Thedas a more interesting place, regardless of how its supplemental information is handled.

[Andraste_Reborn]

I adore all that stuff! Of course, in a past life I got two-thirds of a ph.D. in History, so I am probably part of that 1%. Wrote my Honours thesis on the letters of Petrarch, so primary sources are very much my thing.

 

I find the Codex stuff in the DA series entertaining, and a lot lighter than most real world primary sources from the Middle Ages and the Renaissance. Try wading through Machivelli's Discourses on Livy some time - there aren't nearly as many songs about dogs.

[Teh Chozen Wun]

OP just can't be bothered to read.

[Ziegrif]

I just read the letters and political correspondence I happen to find.

 

I've never actually read the tale of Andraste that every in-game NPC keeps harping on and on about.

Mostly because I can't be bothered to read.

 

It'd have been lovely if someone with a smooth jazzy specifically British voice could read these stories for me.

 

Basically I'd love a Hitchikers guide to Dragon age.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

If only books and codexes were completely optional and could be ignored.

 

Oh wait.

[VegetaForce]

Research is pretty much all that is there. Let loose and make up events that are accessible, and present it entertainingly. There is so little of this in the game, that if it existed, it happened after I quit reading everything to do with history.

And to people with no interest in historical research, each new name for a group or event just makes their eyes roll. It is light compared to real-world research, but it still bone-dry to people like me. What effect does it have on the game's audience at large? It repels them because they are assailed by material that isn't written for them.

The story is really simple, but it seems obfuscated by the in-game literature's attempt to complicate matters with a focus on a multitude of events, places, and peoples with many strange names. The Chantry is like the Catholic Church, that is interesting. Magic is dangerous and powerful, a lot like science is in the real world. The Chantry doesn't have any magic only faith, but magic works. These are fascinating parallels. At face value, the story as a fictional situation is fascinating. But I can't be the only one who thinks the train goes off the rails in the books, which could make the simple situation richer. Instead I find it makes it obscure and irrelevant. All that is alive and rich about the game's history occurs in dialogue.

The literature is written for a narrow audience, while the dialogue covers the events in ways people would be interested in them. I find it a design absurdity that a video game presumes the fake world is worth research. It happens to various degrees in most RPGs. Fake history should be treated like fake history. It isn't, and that makes me think that the designers are out of touch with what they are doing.

To Teh Chozen One: I can't be bothered to research a fake world in a way I don't research the one I live in.

[earl of the north]

I find the DA world more interesting than the Elder Scrolls world and I put hours upon hours into Skyrim, Oblivion etc....I generally took little notice of the books in Skyrim after reading a few, except to fill up my bookcases with a collection of different books.  I've a basic knowledge of the background to the Elder Scrolls games, but I've frankly never felt the need to look into it any further, the Elder Scrolls world feels more artifical to me.

[SadisticChunkyDwarf]

I find the history in DA to be fairly to the point, and less complicated to follow than a lot of fantasy games. Trying to follow Everquest lore is far more taxing and ridiculous.

[llandwynwyn]

I've been reading all codices and notes I find in my path.

[Dreamer]

Dragon Age is infinitely more exciting and interesting to me (as a historian) because almost every bit and bob of the lore has a real-world parallel; Christianity, modern politics, the Romans, racial politics, civil disobedience and the Civil Rights Movement, disability, LGBT. It's all represented, and the writers present everything in an intelligent and measured way--and just enough for us to immediately recognize the parallels without being obnoxious (though the Andraste-Christ metaphor can sometimes be grating).

 

Thedas is just as interesting as the real world. We can critique our own world as we play; you can't jump into Dragon Age and not think at least once, "Maker, we've done some of the same things--and that's incredibly more stupid of us than them."

[AshesEleven]

I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is.  You don't like reading the history codices?  Then don't.  I'm majoring in History and this stuff is my jam, I love that it's there.  Why is this bad?  

[Sith Grey Warden]

I'm getting a minor in history, and I love reading the codex entries. A lot of them are repeated from past games, so I skip them. If you don't like reading codex entries, just skip all of them.

[VegetaForce]

I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is. You don't like reading the history codices? Then don't. I'm majoring in History and this stuff is my jam, I love that it's there. Why is this bad?

They are plastered over my screen constantly, and they have no informative or entertaining value to people who don't have a particular career interest in history. Everyone who has responded that they enjoy the content has a career interest in history.

If I am going to be deluged with hundreds of codices I don't want to read, I think it is fair game to give a couple codices worth of rebuttal as to why this content sucks. It is pretentious and targets a narrow crowd. If the game was made up of hundreds of omnipresent graph theory puzzles, well, non-mathematicians wouldn't be happy. Yet it is a side game, with a minimal presence. The history is everywhere, but it is done in the least interesting way possible for non-historians, so most of the people who want the flavor of history to the world have only the conversations to go on.

Honestly, I didn't think there would be a half-dozen people with a career history interest in this thread. It's your jam and not mine. That's why you say it is awesome, that is why I say it sucks. There is no codex worth reading for me, and I want there to be. It is all written for people like you, that is absurd to me.

[p1nkempyreal]

I like reading the codex entries. I'm waiting for someone to compile them online though, because I have limited game time and want to use that to play.

[AshesEleven]

They are plastered over my screen constantly, and they have no informative or entertaining value to people who don't have a particular career interest in history. Everyone who has responded that they enjoy the content has a career interest in history.

If I am going to be deluged with hundreds of codices I don't want to read, I think it is fair game to give a couple codices worth of rebuttal as to why this content sucks. It is pretentious and targets a narrow crowd. If the game was made up of hundreds of omnipresent graph theory puzzles, well, non-mathematicians wouldn't be happy. Yet it is a side game, with a minimal presence. The history is everywhere, but it is done in the least interesting way possible for non-historians, so most of the people who want the flavor of history to the world have only the conversations to go on.

Honestly, I didn't think there would be a half-dozen people with a career history interest in this thread. It's your jam and not mine. That's why you say it is awesome, that is why I say it sucks. There is no codex worth reading for me, and I want there to be. It is all written for people like you, that is absurd to me.

 

So you want the history presented to you in an easier, more palatable way?  A more interesting way?  Am I understanding correctly, cause if not let me know.

 

I just really don't know how else you want it presented.  The codex entries aren't complicated, they're very short and easy to understand.  Other than that, there are conversations that you can listen to to get little snippets of history.  No one is expecting you to do research, and if you think reading a few little codex entries is equivalent to doing research then I'm not really sure what to tell you...

 

This just isn't an issue.  If you don't enjoy the way it's presented, that's fine, and if you want some codex entries that appeal to you, that's cool too (still not clear on what you want codex entries to be?).  But this isn't an absurdity.  It helps make the world feel more alive to people who enjoy this stuff.  

[Maconbar]

They are plastered over my screen constantly, and they have no informative or entertaining value to people who don't have a particular career interest in history. Everyone who has responded that they enjoy the content has a career interest in history.
If I am going to be deluged with hundreds of codices I don't want to read, I think it is fair game to give a couple codices worth of rebuttal as to why this content sucks. It is pretentious and targets a narrow crowd. If the game was made up of hundreds of omnipresent graph theory puzzles, well, non-mathematicians wouldn't be happy. Yet it is a side game, with a minimal presence. The history is everywhere, but it is done in the least interesting way possible for non-historians, so most of the people who want the flavor of history to the world have only the conversations to go on.
Honestly, I didn't think there would be a half-dozen people with a career history interest in this thread. It's your jam and not mine. That's why you say it is awesome, that is why I say it sucks. There is no codex worth reading for me, and I want there to be. It is all written for people like you, that is absurd to me.

I agree. Games should only be tailored to my interests. Anything that doesn't specifically appeal to me is absurd.

[VegetaForce]

So you want the history presented to you in an easier, more palatable way?  A more interesting way?  Am I understanding correctly, cause if not let me know.
 
I just really don't know how else you want it presented.  The codex entries aren't complicated, they're very short and easy to understand.  Other than that, there are conversations that you can listen to to get little snippets of history.  No one is expecting you to do research, and if you think reading a few little codex entries is equivalent to doing research then I'm not really sure what to tell you...
 
This just isn't an issue.  If you don't enjoy the way it's presented, that's fine, and if you want some codex entries that appeal to you, that's cool too (still not clear on what you want codex entries to be?).  But this isn't an absurdity.  It helps make the world feel more alive to people who enjoy this stuff.

Yes and yes. As is, it is a history game, interesting to people who do history. The codices aren't equivelent to doing research, they are equivelent to doing research about people who don't exist and things that never happened. It is done in the style you would piece together accounts of important events through dozens of sources, except the events aren't important and the sources are a writer's artifice that inhibits most people from taking any joy in them.

It is an issue, and it's absurd. Because so few people enjoy that stuff. From what I gather here, it is because they enjoy doing the act of studying history itself, even if that history is made up. If you are going to write fantasy history, realize that it is burden of boredom on most players to do it in a way resembling real history, they way you would draw conclusions based on primary sources.

Tolkien did this kind of stuff way back when the fantasy genre was being born. Nobody does it now because it is dull as ditchwater. You read a Song of Ice and Fire and you don't get long accounts of way back when. They are fed in to the story as they become relevant, and they are sparse and vital when they are presented. That is a good way to tackle stuff that didn't happen. It is bad to treat it like it is self-important even though it didn't happen.

[Nithrakis Arcanius]

I read all the books I find and I'm glad they do this with all of their RPGs, Mass Effect included.

 

I also enjoy this aspect of the TES games. 

[AshesEleven]

Yes and yes. As is, it is a history game, interesting to people who do history. The codices aren't equivelent to doing research, they are equivelent to doing research about people who don't exist and things that never happened. It is done in the style you would piece together accounts of important events through dozens of sources, except the events aren't important and the sources are a writer's artifice that inhibits most people from taking any joy in them.

It is an issue, and it's absurd. Because so few people enjoy that stuff. From what I gather here, it is because they enjoy doing the act of studying history itself, even if that history is made up. If you are going to write fantasy history, realize that it is burden of boredom on most players to do it in a way resembling real history, they way you would draw conclusions based on primary sources.

Tolkien did this kind of stuff way back when the fantasy genre was being born. Nobody does it now because it is dull as ditchwater. You read a Song of Ice and Fire and you don't get long accounts of way back when. They are fed in to the story as they become relevant, and they are sparse and vital when they are presented. That is a good way to tackle stuff that didn't happen. It is bad to treat it like it is self-important even though it didn't happen.

 

Your arguments make absolutely zero sense.  Plenty of people like the codex, and those who don't just don't bother reading it.  Those codex entries are so tiny.  They're like a paragraph or two.  There's nothing self-important about this, they're just fun asides that the writers did to flesh out the world a little more.  

 

PLENTY of people love Tolkien's work.  Most of the people who love Tolkien stuff also play these kinds of fantasy games.  Also, what the hell, the Song of Ice and Fire has plenty of historical anecdotes and accounts that are pages long.  If you like the conversational way history is revealed, just listen to the conversations and don't bother with the codex!  Just because you don't like something or think it's pretentious doesn't mean it should go away.  THAT'S absurd, thinking that you alone know what should or should not be included in a fantasy game.  

[VegetaForce]

Your arguments make absolutely zero sense.  Plenty of people like the codex, and those who don't just don't bother reading it.  Those codex entries are so tiny.  They're like a paragraph or two.  There's nothing self-important about this, they're just fun asides that the writers did to flesh out the world a little more.  
 
PLENTY of people love Tolkien's work.  Most of the people who love Tolkien stuff also play these kinds of fantasy games.  Also, what the hell, the Song of Ice and Fire has plenty of historical anecdotes and accounts that are pages long.  If you like the conversational way history is revealed, just listen to the conversations and don't bother with the codex!  Just because you don't like something or think it's pretentious doesn't mean it should go away.  THAT'S absurd, thinking that you alone know what should or should not be included in a fantasy game.

I don't believe you are being genuine anymore.

You thinking that you can judge my judgments is absurd, as if you know better than me. Because you disagree doesn't make you any less wrong.

[AshesEleven]

I don't believe you are being genuine anymore.

You thinking that you can judge my judgments is absurd, as if you know better than me. Because you disagree doesn't make you any less wrong.

 

You thinking that you can judge my judgement of your judgement is absurd! 

 

Seriously though, you're the one saying that we should all do what you say  It's cool that you have different opinions but don't pretend as if your opinions are the only ones that matter.  They're not.  This discussion is over, have a nice day.  

[SadisticChunkyDwarf]

Yes and yes. As is, it is a history game, interesting to people who do history. The codices aren't equivelent to doing research, they are equivelent to doing research about people who don't exist and things that never happened. It is done in the style you would piece together accounts of important events through dozens of sources, except the events aren't important and the sources are a writer's artifice that inhibits most people from taking any joy in them.

It is an issue, and it's absurd. Because so few people enjoy that stuff. From what I gather here, it is because they enjoy doing the act of studying history itself, even if that history is made up. If you are going to write fantasy history, realize that it is burden of boredom on most players to do it in a way resembling real history, they way you would draw conclusions based on primary sources.

Tolkien did this kind of stuff way back when the fantasy genre was being born. Nobody does it now because it is dull as ditchwater. You read a Song of Ice and Fire and you don't get long accounts of way back when. They are fed in to the story as they become relevant, and they are sparse and vital when they are presented. That is a good way to tackle stuff that didn't happen. It is bad to treat it like it is self-important even though it didn't happen.

 

Not all parts of history are self evident or relevant in current context. If you only get fed "vital information" as it comes, it feels contrived and tacked on like it's being used as a mechanic of justification, which it is. Tolkien's work is boring, for the very reason that he was obsessively thorough, and it was successful for the same reason. His creation of entire layers of history was irreverent to the reader, because he presents it in a realistic way, akin to actual human history.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

OP: Learn to read or learn to like reading.