181 réponses à ce sujet

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

This thread misses the issue that it actually has with the game. You expected a different game... the control scheme isn't what is wrong with the game, your expectations are what is wrong.

[Gel214th]

People that pretend a point & click system out of DA:I are simply daydreamers living in a sort of fantasy world where everything is possible just because you desire it, no matter how difficult it can be given the problematics behind.

 

I never said a point and click control scheme totally.

 

If we can agree that Shadows of Mordor is a 3rd person Action RPG, and that Dragon Age : Inquisition's Action Camera is attempting to mimic that very active style of play, does it succeed? 

 

I would say only partially.

 

And if we can agree that Dragon Age Origins, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights represented good Tactical Combat RPGs with different pause schemes, does DA:I's Action Camera, or Tactical Camera succeed at mimicing those control schemes? 

 

I would say only partially. 

 

Move- to - Attack CAN be implemented in the Action Camera as an option. It absolutely can be, it is there in the Tactical View. So we know it can be.

 

To answer the question of why it isn't, I would say because of Multiplayer, which uses the Action Cam view. You do not want Move To Attack in multiplayer, or auto attack in multiplayer. The current Action Camera and control system meets the needs for the multiplayer combat perfectly.

 

Can Click to Move be implemented? Yes it absolutely can be, again it is there in the tactical view inside the same frostbite engine, inside the same game world. Unpaused I can click to move to my heart's content, I can even slew the camera around and play the entire game in tactical view if I wanted to.So yes, it can be implemented in the "Action Camera" view.  Holding down the left and right mouse buttons to move forward can also be implemented, or is that somehow not possible because of the frostbite engine as well? 

 

Holding down the left and right mouse button to move forward is a staple of RPGs, including MMO RPG control schemes.

Do you know what games don't use that control scheme? 3rd person action games. Hence my point about what is DA:I trying to be? 

 

The thing about Reflex actions? Totally no place within the current game control scheme except with multiplayer where one person controls one character, in my view. Of course if the devs made the AI smart enough to always move out of AOE range, what would be the point of having AOE attacks. This stuff works with passive skills and percentage rolls in the background based on RPG stats. If it is meant to be based on the player's reflexes it doesn't really work as well with this control scheme. We see that in Dragon Age Origins where a Rogue will dodge and parry without the player needing to tap a key. 

 

If skills need to be cast in anticipation of a windup attack, then the AI better had know to use them all the time when they are up, otherwise it makes them impossible to gain full benefit of. 

 

And I'm not whining due to entitlement, I'm saying that both the Action Camera view, and the Tactical Camera view, and some of the game mechanics need to be tweaked for players who came from DA:O, DA2, BG, NWN and other similar games to get a comparable experience in DA:I. They need to be tweaked for the game as-is to really work with the powers and skills that we can get on our characters. 

 

I don't think I need to add all the things I love about the game in feedback about some flaws that I think need to be addressed. 

 

Whether these things are fixed or not is going to come down to a cost benefit analysis by someone.

If players don't speak out and give feedback, then the benefit side will never match the cost side and things will remain the same. 

[Olivier_dehFanboy]

Man, CRPG fans are rabid. no wonder Bioware is shying away from you.

[tmp7704]

I don't think this game is held back by its roots, but rather by really lacking implementation of what it tries to do.

For some reasons a number of elements have regressed from the earlier games. Even the "shuffling" from DAO the devs mocked on a few occasions in the interviews seems worse in this game, to the point where the companions can't even get into desired position without overshooting it a few times and moving back and forth. Add to it very primitive AI with no way to fix other than turn it off and do things manually and some other elements, and you have the end result that's current very clumsy feeling DA:I.

[Callous]

I really liked Original Sin, a lot. Best Larian game ever, by far. I didn't think much of anything they had done previously, to be honest.

Wasteland 2 was a bit of a let down in that the first half of the game was very well done and the second half was clearly not finished being tested and tuned. That and the skills/stats needed re-balancing. Still, in today's CRPG environment, happy to have that game.

For me the 2nd half was like playing a new game compared to the first. The textures were better and the writing really picked up steam. The bugs were ironed out buy the time I got there.

[Aurok]

This thread misses the issue that it actually has with the game. You expected a different game... the control scheme isn't what is wrong with the game, your expectations are what is wrong.

Yeah, no. The control scheme is poor whatever type of game you expected it to be. There's no excuse for why the tac cam is as bad as it is.

[Erudius]

I *LOVE* that BioWare went back to the roots... THIS IS OLD SCHOOL RPG PEOPLE... I have a feeling that most of the whiners have never played a table-top RPG before in their life.

THIS GAME IS AMAZING!

[Selea]

Can Click to Move be implemented? Yes it absolutely can be, again it is there in the tactical view inside the same frostbite engine, inside the same game world. Unpaused I can click to move to my heart's content, I can even slew the camera around and play the entire game in tactical view if I wanted to.So yes, it can be implemented in the "Action Camera" view.  Holding down the left and right mouse buttons to move forward can also be implemented, or is that somehow not possible because of the frostbite engine as well? 

It's different. The movement scope is reduced in tactical camera. You cannot go everywhere you want (if you move too far you disengage from combat and return to normal cam). Characters don't jump automatically, pathfinding issues are much reduced (the complex pathfinding is tied to targets, not to the world, a complete different beast and much much simpler to program).

It is a completely different context.

Can tactical cam be made to work as almost full point and click? I think so, or at last it is possible with some work. Can you have point to move (as DA:O) in DA:I? No, you cannot (or is not worth it given the work behind). Pathfinding issues would arise and it would be too difficult to program the thing correctly. What you can have, however, is mouse to move (as for example LMB + RMB to auto run/walk) and that would be already a great step forward. I sincerely don't think, as many do here, that click to move is a necessity to have a good control scheme. The fact that it was in DA:O doesn't automatically make it the "one and absolute only way to control a character to move that's correct in a cRPG". 

In my opinion the problematics that are now in the input scheme is what turns it so obnoxious to people. If the control scheme worked correctly (so that for example you could not swing in air missing like an idiot) then people would not focus on those bad points and they will learn to use the new way to approach things and adapt (and then it will work fine). Since the adapting curve is broken by some things that don't work correctly it's obvious that the control scheme is seen as not working, but it really isn't in itself, it is just bugged.

[tmp7704]

I *LOVE* that BioWare went back to the roots... THIS IS OLD SCHOOL RPG PEOPLE... I have a feeling that most of the whiners have never played a table-top RPG before in their life.

Table-top in the sense your entire party during combat acts like a bunch of morons? I could've lived without having this particular bit reenacted in a computer game.

[Selea]

Yeah, no. The control scheme is poor whatever type of game you expected it to be. There's no excuse for why the tac cam is as bad as it is.

It doesn't work correctly atm, yes, but the concept behind is not bad. If it worked correctly you could play combat as a point and click input scheme (or a point and click hybrid) from an action-RPG input scheme hence giving an option to those that want to play that way (and combat is the part where point and click is more important).

I think people are mixing the fact that the tac cam doesn't work correctly atm with it not working in itself, but the two are separate things.

[Brogan]

It is a completely different context.

 

No, it's kind of exactly the same.

[Selea]

No, it's kind of exactly the same.

No, it's not. One is a bugged behavior, the other is the concept not working. Two completely different things.

[Shelled]

you could say the opposite. You could say this game is held back by them adding this dragon age 2 real-time combat nonsense instead.

With how hard nightmare is, and how dumb the a.i is, I don't understand what the point of this real-time combat is in the first place. They tried to appease these call of duty console kids but honestly, its the reason why dragon age 2 sucked so bad (among many other reasons), I don't understand why they didn't just go the full origins route in the first place. The game was a massive success but their greed doesn't allow them to cater to what made them successful in the first place.

What you end up with is a game largely designed for consoles with mediocre pc controls and a very mediocre tactical camera.

[Shahadem]

So where's the dodge button? Jump+run+forward? Cause it ain't working.

[AlanC9]

Do you really think Mordor was a big influence on development? It came out about five minutes ago.

Sure. Bioware always travels into the future, looks at what will really tick off their most loyal fans, and then brings that technology back a couple of years to implement it in their next game. That's how NWN ended up without a real party and KotOR ended up consolized.

[Selea]

you could say the opposite. You could say this game is held back by them adding this dragon age 2 real-time combat nonsense instead.

With how hard nightmare is, and how dumb the a.i is, I don't understand what the point of this real-time combat is in the first place.

For people that like to play in normal or casual (so actually the majority of people)?

People that play in hard or nightmare are really much less than people that play on normal and below. On normal and below you don't either need the tac cam and if I could bet on it I would bet on the fact that the majority of people neither use it, in fact.

[Brogan]

No, it's not. One is a bugged behavior, the other is the concept not working. Two completely different things.

 

yea, but....  still

 

Kinda the same thing.

[AlanC9]

What you can have, however, is mouse to move (as for example LMB + RMB to auto run/walk) and that would be already a great step forward. I sincerely don't think, as many do here, that click to move is a necessity to have a good control scheme. The fact that it was in DA:O doesn't automatically make it the "one and absolute only way to control a character to move that's correct in a cRPG".

Am I the only person here who didn't remember that LMB+RMB was even a thing in DA:O?

[Selea]

Am I the only person here who didn't remember that LMB+RMB was even a thing in DA:O?

I knew it and in fact I used it even more than I used click to move (and so I cannot either understand why people are so adamant on click to move since other things works perfectly fine in the same way).

[Shelled]

For people that like to play in normal or casual (so actually the majority of people)?

People that play in hard or nightmare are really much less than people that play on normal and below. On normal and below you don't either need the tac cam.

You have no proof or firm basis regarding this statement at all. It's like making up percentages on the internet. It's laughable.

The point is that they could have catered towards these people, but they did it in a way that was way too intrusive to the people who like to play on nightmare, by way of making an awful tactical cam and a.i that is absolutely terrible with 0 ways to customize companion a.i unlike the other dragon age games.

They could have done it properly, but in its current state its a disaster. So I guess the point you're making is that because more people (according to you) would prefer to play on casual with real-time dragon age 2 combat (the vast majority that hated DA:2), that's all the excuse the developers need to make a half-assed tactical system?
 

You.

Are.

A.

Bioware. 

Drone.

[Brogan]

I just finished playing DA2 again and I used lmb+rmb literally the entire game.

 

Never touched wasd.

 

That's how DAI should have been.

[Selea]

yea, but....  still

 

Kinda the same thing.

Really? So if I say that this orange on the table is rotten and not tasting good then is it "kinda the same" as saying that an orange as a fruit is not tasting good?

[Selea]

You have no proof or firm basis regarding this statement at all. It's like making up percentages on the internet. It's laughable.

It is a well known fact that the majority of people play in normal or below. Bioware has stated this many many times (oh, but I forgot: Bioware always tells lies just because...)

And please stop with this idiocy of all who disagree with your whining to be "Bioware drones". I have never been a drone of anybody. It is just because I think with my head and objectively that I defend the game from the hatred that's completely out of hand given the objective problems and the context tied with the sames. 

People like you seems to me like the snobs in artistic circles that always go with the flow and neither know why they do it in reality. They always wait to join a cause against something or someone to yell at the "maximum outrage" and yet they very rarely can really judge if something is good or not. But in their minds they pretend to be the best critics of the world, sometimes having never even wrote or painted anything in all their life and neither minimally knowing what it entails; still they are (naturally again in their minds) great experts on what it takes to make a good work of art.

[Shelled]

It is a well known fact that the majority of people play in normal or below. Bioware has stated this many many times (oh, but I forgot: Bioware always tells lies just because...)

And please stop with this idiocy of all who disagree with your whining to be "Bioware drones". I am never been a drone of anybody. It is just because I think with my head and objectively that I defend the game from the hatred that's out of hand. 

People like you seems to me like the snobs in artistic circles that always go with the flow and neither know why they do it in reality.

Go with the flow? Isn't that what you're doing by defending biowares crappy work?

You definitely sound like a bioware drone to me.

I fully understand what is wrong with this game. Allow me to tell you, because you seem clueless.

 

1. You cannot stealth while in tactical mode otherwise the character keeps auto-attacking immediately, making stealth-based abilities a pain to micro-manage. If I stealth or use any ability that puts me in stealth my character should STOP auto-attacking in tactical mode.
2. No auto-attack in "regular" mode.
3. The tactical cam has several functionality problems:
       1. Does not zoom out far enough
       2. Cannot look "up" when you zoom out with it. This is extremely frustrating.
       3. Snaps to selected characters
       4. Gets stuck against rocks, walls, elevated terrain.
       5. There is no way to turn off the tactical-information popups that appear when you've selected to attack an enemy while in tactical mode. They are blocking where my main tank and my rogue is because of how large they are. If I need information about an enemy in detail I will just over my mouse over the enemy. I do not understand why we can't toggle this popup thing off in tactical mode. There is no option to toggle it off.
       6. Tactical mode needs only a button hotkey. The scroll wheel should not put you into tactical mode, because for the people that want to play without it, its a hindrance.

4. Cannot allocate attribute points. I want my own customization, thank you bioware. I do not own a console and I am not 14 years old. It also eliminates the potential for different kind of builds but basically you stripped us of that freedom.
5. The lack of options to tweak our characters A.I is practically non-existent compared to previous dragon age titles. You may as well call it like it is, it basically doesn't even exist anymore and its annoying because the current a.i are dumber than tree stumps (case in point: Reread problem #1 in this post).
6. Willpower doesn't say if it actually increases mana or not.
7. I have no way to actually see what my actual mana or stamina number is during combat (as an actual number, not a BAR).
8. Cannot equip a different weapon while in combat. Sometimes my rogue just can't withstand certain AoE enemies on nightmare mode and I would like to use the character in some way rather than having it sit there do nothing, but I cannot change my weapon during combat?? Terrible.
9. Menu U.I is designed poorly for pc controls. (Text should be smaller, lists should be fuller)
10. Not even simple "hold position" commands work properly. If I tell them to hold, they should hold. Period. Even if they have line of sight issues while shooting a ranged target they should not break my hold command and go running off. The entire party literally teleports to you if you run 20 feet away while they are supposed to be holding. It's a catastrophe.

I could probably go on for 30 reasons or more, but these are the ones that mainly annoy me that need to be corrected.

Also I think you misunderstood my post. If people want to play casually in real-time combat I think that is fine, but they didn't even do that properly either with their "merging" of the two systems when they could have easily kept them separated while having access to both. Not even the real-time easy mode casuals are happy with it.

[Brogan]

Really? So if I say that this orange on the table is rotten and not tasting good then is it "kinda the same" as saying that an orange as a fruit is not tasting good?

 

More like if you drew a big yellow circle on the table 4 feet away from the 2 oranges, I could make both of them walk to the circle in the same exact way.