181 réponses à ce sujet

[neverko]

PC Gamer for over 20 years <<

 

Feel this is amazing, in fact a master piece.

Tired of listening to people whinge, cod is that way >

Amazing graphics and environments

Game is HUGE!

Works p-e-r-f-e-c-t-l-y with a 360 pad on pc

Can't wait to continue the adventure

Tired of threads like this

Fact#

If you're unable to discuss valid game design issues, why do you even respond?

 

You just posted something that contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand.

 

I guess you started playing PC games at the tender age of -6.

[Gel214th]

There are NO reflex based things in the game. Only things I can think of are doing that Icewalker spell (or something) when those terror things pop out of the ground.

Is the game a lot more flashy and actiony? Yes. Reflex based? Hell no.

 

Parry, Combat Roll, Fade Step, Dodging AOE attacks in real time...

 

Those are not based on character attributes, or toggle modes are they?

So...how do those work?

Hmm...I need to TIME when I use those skills, and when I stop using them based on the animations of the opponent , don't I?

So...that kinda takes reflexes doesn't it? See the bear rear up, drop into Shield Wall or run away, or roll away? In real time...Timing...Reflex...

 

So call it Action, call it Reflex, Call it timing. We're both referring to the same style of combat. 

That was not the way DA:O was, and was not even the way DA2 was. 

 

That is more reminiscent of Fable, Kingdoms of Amalur, or Witcher series. And those games do not have 8 skills that need to be used, and did not come from a tactical combat background. 

 

I think you are trying to discuss pause-based.

 

"Real time with pause", or turn based. I think what is meant is clearly understood. While I don't have a problem with the realtime with pause, I see that some people would prefer a fully turn based game like Divinity:Original Sin, Xcom, or Wasteland 2.

 

That's not my preference for DA:I, though. 

[Brogan]

"Real time with pause", or turn based. I think what is meant is clearly understood. While I don't have a problem with the realtime with pause, I see that some people would prefer a fully turn based game like Divinity:Original Sin, Xcom, or Wasteland 2.

 

That's not my preference for DA:I, though. 

 

No, he mentioned chess in the same post.  He clearly has no clue and has likely never played DAO or DA2 on pc.

 

What is being missed here is the fact that the Pause system allows you the choice.  It does not Force you to use it.  It does not force you to pause the game in every encounter.  It gives you the choice.  Choice of whether to play using the pause, and trying to strategically set up how you interact, or NOT choosing to pause, which allows for the typical, generic gameplay that most games have now. 

 

Everyone likes to conveniently forget that pause-based does not mean turn-based.

[Gel214th]

To add to my own topic. I just played the game with an Xbox controller. 

 

It was like I was playing a completely different game. Everything just flows smoothly one to the other in the Action camera mode. 

I had no problems chaining regular attacks with Shield blocks, with taunts with my Warrior.

 

My Knight Enchanter popped a Barrier , then rushed forward to close the gap and started slashing with the spirit sword! All in a matter of seconds without even thinking about it. I even popped an Immolate which was on the second page of powers in the middle of combat which felt extremely satisfying.

 

I understand why people who are playing the game with a controller have no clue what keyboard and mouse players are referring to.

 

The game was definitely created to be played with a controller. The combat decisions and design decisions make complete sense when you use the controller, you would wonder how it could have been designed any other way if all you used was a game controller.

 

Until the desginers and developers start playing with the mouse and keyboard they won't have a clue what we are talking about.

[Brogan]

To add to my own topic. I just played the game with an Xbox controller. 

 

It was like I was playing a completely different game. Everything just flows smoothly one to the other in the Action camera mode. 

I had no problems chaining regular attacks with Shield blocks, with taunts with my Warrior.

 

My Knight Enchanter popped a Barrier , then rushed forward to close the gap and started slashing with the spirit sword! All in a matter of seconds without even thinking about it. I even popped an Immolate which was on the second page of powers in the middle of combat which felt extremely satisfying.

 

I understand why people who are playing the game with a controller have no clue what keyboard and mouse players are referring to.

 

The game was definitely created to be played with a controller. The combat decisions and design decisions make complete sense when you use the controller, you would wonder how it could have been designed any other way. 

 

Spoiler

[BanditGR]

To add to my own topic. I just played the game with an Xbox controller. 

 

It was like I was playing a completely different game. Everything just flows smoothly one to the other in the Action camera mode. 

I had no problems chaining regular attacks with Shield blocks, with taunts with my Warrior.

 

My Knight Enchanter popped a Barrier , then rushed forward to close the gap and started slashing with the spirit sword! All in a matter of seconds without even thinking about it. I even popped an Immolate which was on the second page of powers in the middle of combat which felt extremely satisfying.

 

I understand why people who are playing the game with a controller have no clue what keyboard and mouse players are referring to.

 

The game was definitely created to be played with a controller. The combat decisions and design decisions make complete sense when you use the controller, you would wonder how it could have been designed any other way if all you used was a game controller.

 

Until the desginers and developers start playing with the mouse and keyboard they won't have a clue what we are talking about.

 

I couldn't agree more. In fact the only real thing I blame the devs for is not putting the controller in the minimum requirements, so the rest of us that actually enjoy KB + M gameplay can move on to something more suitable to our preferred control scheme.

[Brogan]

I couldn't agree more. In fact the only real thing I blame the devs for is not putting the controller in the minimum requirements, so the rest of us that actually enjoy KB + M gameplay can move on to something more suitable to our preferred control scheme.

That would have surely caused less of a public outcry...

[biain]

i hate these kinds of threads that act like bioware can change the fundamentals of the game with a patch. You saw the videos and the walkthroughs... you knew what kind of game this would be... so i ask you, what the **** is the point of this thread?

 

Erm, calm down. I agree with your sentiment that a magical patch to fix all the issues is unlikely. That said, BioWare did advertise tactical combat and they even included a tactical camera/mode. The problem is it's entirely broken. The camera view doesn't zoom out enough, camera view obscured by environment, no auto-attack, no click to move, tab to cycle through party members, etc. Those are difficult things to figure out without playing the game.

 

A patch could possibly fix some of those issues. And if done correctly tactical combat would be usable and fun.

[Fast Jimmy]

I've got to ask, what series?

The PC crowd who are criticising DA:I didn't like DA2 and its expansions either, and generally view all the multiplayer and free2play games as non-canon money-grabs, which was also the view at the time of the DA:O DLC. So you're not really fans of the series, you're fans of one game. Indeed, a console player who never played DA:O but plays DA2 and DA:I on his X-box can better claim to be a fan of the series.

That is a fair assessment, actually.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I sincerely don't think, as many do here, that click to move is a necessity to have a good control scheme.

Regardless of the mechanism, there needs to be a way to give disparate movement commands to multiple characters simultaneously. Driving, be it with WASD or the mouse, does not permit that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

That would have surely caused less of a public outcry...

Maybe if they told us a year ago, but telling us a week before the game would have started a riot.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I think the Tac Cam works pretty well. It could use some tweaks, but overall I like it.

[Sevitan7]

I've got to ask, what series?

 

The PC crowd who are criticising DA:I didn't like DA2 and its expansions either, and generally view all the multiplayer and free2play games as non-canon money-grabs, which was also the view at the time of the DA:O DLC. So you're not really fans of the series, you're fans of one game. Indeed, a console player who never played DA:O but plays DA2 and DA:I on his X-box can better claim to be a fan of the series. 

 

That's very presumptuous of you. I'm a fan of both Origins and Dragon Age 2, primarily for their real tactical squad based rpg combat with pause. Both of those games had very similar mechanics, if different presentation values, that provided me many hours of fun.

 

I definitely have the right to be disappointed in the gutted, quasi-action rpg, unbalanced mess that is the combat system of Inquisition.

[xrayspex73]

personally, i blame the engine... and bioware for deciding to use this engine

 

 

 

 

 

 

i despise this engine...

 

Agreed. The frostbite engine.... bites.

 

The issue with stuttering cutscenes is because of this stupid engine's inability to do simple things like in-game cutscenes. Unfortunately the frostbite engine is the "official" engine of EA and apparently ALL games they produce must use it. Sad to say the least.

[Hexoduen]

I've got to ask, what series?

 

The PC crowd who are criticising DA:I didn't like DA2 and its expansions either, and generally view all the multiplayer and free2play games as non-canon money-grabs, which was also the view at the time of the DA:O DLC. So you're not really fans of the series, you're fans of one game. Indeed, a console player who never played DA:O but plays DA2 and DA:I on his X-box can better claim to be a fan of the series. 

 

To throw in my two cents:

I enjoy both Origins and DA2, and consider myself to be a fan of the series, a fan who is now part of that PC crowd criticizing Inquisition. Dragon Age is the spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate, which I found to be deep, immersive and tactical - all elements that were a part of Dragon Age.

 

I get that in order to please a bigger crowd Bioware had to simplify the game and make it more action-oriented, but what I don't get is why they removed the possibility to play the game like Origins and DA2. You can no longer choose to customize tactics, you can no longer choose to allocate attribute points, you can't even play the game properly with a mouse and keyboard, tactical view has two cursors, wtf!? It literally screams controller at you.

 

Why not have the best of two worlds: Let the player decide if they want the new controller button-mashing combat, with controller designed UI, automatic allocation of attribute points, automatic tactics etc., or if they want to play the game like it could be played in Origins and DA2? We could, for example, have had the option to choose "automatic" or "customize" in the tactics menu, instead of having core mechanics ripped out of the game.

[massive_effect]

Wtf are you talking about, turn-based?  Turn based is Battleship.  Uno.

 

I think you are trying to discuss pause-based.

 

I've never heard of that term, but turn-based RPGs are not as simplistic as Battleship. In turn-based combat you issue a command to each member, and the characters will execute the command with an animation. Then the enemy takes their turn.

 

That is the system we use, even if it seems like real time. Time is a factor in all turn-based RPGs, but in old-school RPGs, time is slowed to a crawl (ie, time-slots).

 

The problem with DAI is that it's trying to appease both turn-based and action, and it ultimately fails at both.

 

For action, I want the camera close (FPS or Over-the-Shoulder), and I want true real time combat (Like Mass Effect or Dragon's Dogma).

 

For turn-based, I would love to see an older system (like Enchanted Arms, or Lost Odyssey). I think there's opportunity to innovate with cinematic battles in turn-based.

 

A combination of the two simply weakens the combat.

[massive_effect]

Agreed. The frostbite engine.... bites.

 

The issue with stuttering cutscenes is because of this stupid engine's inability to do simple things like in-game cutscenes. Unfortunately the frostbite engine is the "official" engine of EA and apparently ALL games they produce must use it. Sad to say the least.

 

Maybe there are issues with this engine, but it may also be the DA team implementing it poorly. The reason I say this is that it's obvious they used assets from old games. I know as an expert CAD draftsman, that it's always bad to reuse old assets. If you want more stable software, you recreate assets from scratch.

 

I highly doubt Liara's head bob was recaptured for DAI. I'm sure they imported her ME1 animation file for Jack and Miranda in ME2, and then the lipstick version of Ashley in ME3, which is now boyish Cassandra's reaction in DAI.

[Brogan]

I've never heard of that term, but turn-based RPGs are not as simplistic as Battleship. In turn-based combat you issue a command to each member, and the characters will execute the command with an animation. Then the enemy takes their turn.

 

That is the system we use, even if it seems like real time. Time is a factor in all turn-based RPGs, but in old-school RPGs, time is slowed to a crawl (ie, time-slots).

 

The problem with DAI is that it's trying to appease both turn-based and action, and it ultimately fails at both.

 

For action, I want the camera close (FPS or Over-the-Shoulder), and I want true real time combat (Like Mass Effect or Dragon's Dogma).

 

For turn-based, I would love to see an older system (like Enchanted Arms, or Lost Odyssey). I think there's opportunity to innovate with cinematic battles in turn-based.

 

A combination of the two simply weakens the combat.

 

What?  No, what you're describing sounds like Final Fantasy from like 15 years ago.  There was some kind of goofy music playing while you waited to complete a round.  That's not going on here.

 

Dragon Age, Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, none of these series of games ever used a "turn-based" dynamic afaik, and nobody is asking for that here.

 

DAI is not trying to combine that with anything here, either.  I don't know where you are seeing some kind of 'round based' restricted combat system in DAI.

 

Turn Based does not = Pause Based.  In any form.

[Hexoduen]

 

Dragon Age, Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights, none of these series of games ever used a "turn-based" dynamic afaik, and nobody is asking for that here.

 

DAI is not trying to combine that with anything here, either.  I don't know where you are seeing some kind of 'round based' restricted combat system in DAI.

 

Turn Based does not = Pause Based.  In any form.

 

This is old-school, and I'm not asking for it here, but let me add that the Infinity engine and Aurora engine games did use a "dynamic" turn-based system. As an example here is a quote from the Baldur's Gate 2 manual: "A game round in Baldur's Gate is six seconds long in real time [...] A turn is 10 rounds, that is, sixty seconds". All spells, actions and attacks took a specific number of rounds, of which we were given information.

 

Edit: However, what I would like in Inquisition is some more detailed information - but we got the 'tomatoes' thread for that ye.

[Ganen]

this post makes some very good points on the why's that I had consider when pointing out key flaws I found for the game, and I really hope the Bioware strategy-rpg quality that Origins delivered will return to the Dragon Age games rather than continue on this action game direction for wider audience appeal ($$$)

 

EA needs to give Bioware freedom to make their product, and Bioware needs to decide what kind of crowd will their game appeal to, the action based gamers (younger console crowd) or the rpg-strategy crowd, you will not be able to please both, and personally, I will not be buying the next Dragon Age if its again action based gameplay, I will just watch "lets play" on youtube for the story since gameplay is getting more and more distant to what I like to play with every sequel

 

if people are interested http://forum.bioware...ystem-critique/

[b10d1v]

A mod like skse for skyrim or ME3 explorer for Masseffect3 could solve a lot of these issues by taking control of the inputs to the game and probably should be the focus of a mod team.  However, there was a bioware engineer taking suggestions in the first week on the tactical system "problems" and some of those suggestions were implemented rather quickly.  Bioware has to focus on fixing the remaining video errors.  The game has improved beyond totally unstable, but it still crashes too often!

[Gel214th]

A mod like skse for skyrim or ME3 explorer for Masseffect3 could solve a lot of these issues by taking control of the inputs to the game and probably should be the focus of a mod team.  However, there was a bioware engineer taking suggestions in the first week on the tactical system "problems" and some of those suggestions were implemented rather quickly.  Bioware has to focus on fixing the remaining video errors.  The game has improved beyond totally unstable, but it still crashes too often!

Battlefield couldn't be modded with the new Frostbite engine.

 

I don't think DA:I is going to be moddable in any way. Which is another huge loss for this new Dragon Age game  

[Brogan]

This is old-school, and I'm not asking for it here, but let me add that the Infinity engine and Aurora engine games did use a "dynamic" turn-based system. As an example here is a quote from the Baldur's Gate 2 manual: "A game round in Baldur's Gate is six seconds long in real time [...] A turn is 10 rounds, that is, sixty seconds". All spells, actions and attacks took a specific number of rounds, of which we were given information.

 

Right, but time didn't stop and wait for the enemy to make a move.  The 6 seconds was how they integrated the attacks/effects/spell lengths   It wasn't a set rule for combat.  You could play BG, the entire series, without pausing the game.  You'd die alot, but it was always possible.

[b10d1v]

Use of Frostbite is not the issue -it does what it is supposed to, even if not used to its full realistic video potential - just look at the rain and how it falls and flows, especially over clothing and in some areas how plants react to the impulse momentum.  

The video issues and some of the sluggish behavior are poor directx calls and there were too many to count at launch - likely a faulty translation tool causing the initial hard crashes.  

The in-house RPG development tool is new and appears a bit buggy as well and this slows down the game at times as if its looking through a long list to find something -worst case the script fails - no crash.

[Hexoduen]

Right, but time didn't stop and wait for the enemy to make a move.  The 6 seconds was how they integrated the attacks/effects/spell lengths   It wasn't a set rule for combat.  You could play BG, the entire series, without pausing the game.  You'd die alot, but it was always possible.

 

True, it wasn't turn-based as in time stopped, but it was a rule in that you could 'count' the 6 seconds, thus knowing when the round was over, and a new action could be taken. Behind the scenes a clock was always ticking - didn't matter how fast you clicked those buttons, how many times you tried to cast a spell, you had to wait, and could only cast e.g. 1 Magic Missile every 6 seconds - thus making combat very tactical compared to Dragon Age (at least on the higher difficulty settings I had to pause and consider the number rounds for whatever)

 

I don't want Dragon Age to go back to Baldur's Gate in this regard, but I am certainly doing my best to voice my opinion that making Dragon Age into a full button-mashing hack 'n' slash action RPG is