181 réponses à ce sujet

[Brogan]

I don't want Dragon Age to go back to Baldur's Gate in this regard, but I am certainly doing my best to voice my opinion that making Dragon Age into a full button-mashing hack 'n' slash action RPG is 

 

Would that be the worst thing, though?  The only reason BG wasn't a full 3D game was because the technology didn't permit it.  Not that I would have traded in that beautiful artwork of the areas, but the combat was just as difficult and challenging as any RPG today, especially when you consider the sheer amount of rules and concepts involved.

 

If you think about it, Origins was basically a fully 3d modeled Baldurs Gate, without the d&d license but with it's own, inspired background mythology.  The concepts were the same, and it stemmed from that core component that's still a part of the series today:  paused-based gaming.

[b10d1v]

Frostbite was used in some of the Mass effect 3 DLC and Mass Effect 3 is a challenge, but moddable I used ME3 explorer exclusively to test ME3 mods and do a few small changes myself.  The same approach should work, but you'd need better hooks than the limited console; although changing video effects in this manner is likely too slow for anything but print screen and send screenshot.

 

The use of DLC add ons like inquisition armor and inquisition weapons implies it's likely that these DLC will provide the parameters to make armor and weapon mods mods by way of a new DLC with new features.  Just modifying those DLC to change the in game restrictions on modding rare items would be a good start.  Some are pretty obvious, but it's never cut and paste simple! 

[AlanC9]

If you think about it, Origins was basically a fully 3d modeled Baldurs Gate, without the d&d license but with it's own, inspired background mythology.  The concepts were the same, and it stemmed from that core component that's still a part of the series today:  paused-based gaming.

Origins was pause-based? I pause less in DAO than I do in Skyrim. And thanks to tactics being nerfed I'll pause more in DAI, too.

I don't think I know what you're trying to convey with "paused-based."

[AlanC9]

So call it Action, call it Reflex, Call it timing. We're both referring to the same style of combat. 
That was not the way DA:O was, and was not even the way DA2 was.

Dunno about DA2 -- I could've sworn active dodging was the way to go there.

[Brogan]

Origins was pause-based? I pause less in DAO than I do in Skyrim. And thanks to tactics being nerfed I'll pause more in DAI, too.

I don't think I know what you're trying to convey with "paused-based."

 

Uh, Skyrim was not pause based.

 

And yes, Origins was pause based.

 

Push Esc is not the same as a pause function built into the game.

[Lee T]

Would that be the worst thing, though?

Tactic and pause, that's not a problem, I'm even partial to turn based system. But going back to AD&D now that would be an horrible thing. That system was already outdated when Baldur's gate got out. Non class based systems with advantages and disadvantages like GURPs that was used in Fallout date back from 1986, perks based system like Skyrim already existed in 1996 with Feng Shui (God bless Robin Laws). To this day i havent played more than an hour of Baldur's gate because of how much allergic I am to this simplistic design. I had to wait for NWN and it's bearable D&D 3.0 to go through a Bioware game to the end.

As some are sad to see video games hogtied by console limitations, i'm sad to see the RPG genre being hogtied to D&D or basic mechanics like the WOW character stereotypes (don't you love it when they talk about Overwatch innovative gameplay with their offense, tank, healer and support class... ).

[Hexoduen]

Would that be the worst thing, though?

 

The artwork in Baldur's Gate 2 was indeed beautiful, and still is

 

Long story with Mass Effect as an example: Love Mass Effect I find it deep, immersive, the combat is excellent and one of the best game series I've ever played, just as Dragon Age, but I find Mass Effect to be very different. It's an action RPG. It relies heavily on my own 'button-mashing' and aiming, and less on roleplaying statistics and tactics. More dexterity, less thinking. Sure there are statistics and tactics in Mass Effect, but on a lower level than Origins and DA2.

Dragon Age is not an action RPG, and nor should it be (in my opinion). It's a classic RPG as KOTOR and Baldur's Gate, where the roleplaying statistics that I choose and build up, and especially the tactics that I use combat, are a lot more important than my own button-mashing and aiming.

Where Inquisition goes wrong is that it tries to be an action RPG and a classic RPG at the same time. I was expecting it to be a classic RPG, as Origins and DA2, DA2 started the development away from tactical thinking, but it was okay in my opinion since we could customize the tactics menu, assign attribute points, my character would continuously attack a target when ordered etc. - things that are now gone in Inquisition.

 

There are so very few good CRPGs left, so to watch Dragon Age transform into an action RPG, well, it wasn't what I expected... Heck I still want a KOTOR 3

[Hexoduen]

Would that be the worst thing, though?

 

Short story: If Dragon Age went back to Baldur's Gate mechanics, that would be awesome. But combat mechanics just as in DA2, I'd choose that anytime over Inquisition.

[Gel214th]

So where Inquisition goes wrong is that it tries to be an action RPG and a classic RPG at the same time. I was expecting it to be a classic RPG, as Origins and DA2, DA2 started the development away from tactical thinking, but it was okay in my opinion since we could customize the tactics menu, assign attribute points, my character would continuously attack a target when ordered etc. - things that are now gone in Inquisition.

 

There are so very few good CRPGs left, so to watch Dragon Age transform into an action RPG, well, it wasn't what I expected... Heck I still want a KOTOR 3

 

They are going to Action RPG only next. Dragon Age is a popular franchise that needs to make money, and the action rpg is where the money is for this type of game. Or not, we will see what happens with sales for DA:I.

 

I think they had a very solid fan base, and they should have catered to that fan base and set themselves apart as something different in the marketplace, carve a niche that would have been unassailable.

 

There seem to be some wild ideas floating around in EA and Bioware about what Dragon Age should be, where the money is, and all the NEW players that they can get. Next thing they're going to try to make a multiplayer only MMO game with a cash shop and call it Dragon Age 4. ridiculous, in my view. 

 

There was a core game mechanic that worked. Why change it to something halfway between action, and halfway between tactical?

[Hexoduen]

I think they had a very solid fan base, and they should have catered to that fan base and set themselves apart as something different

 

Yes a lot of fans have been with Bioware since the mid 90's, I for one. The sentiment to cater a larger crowd is understandable, but it should be possible to retain the core mechanics from Origins and DA2. Let the player decide how to build their character, how to set their tactics etc. - does the player want to let the game do it automatically for them? or does the player want to customize it? I'm keeping my hopes up for future patches, we especially need those tactics back.

[suliabryon]

I don't use the tactical pause thing unless I'm in a boss fight and have no choice. The game plays just fine for me without it, and I have no complaints about the AI running my party. It certainly does a MUCH better job that it ever did in DA:O. Perhaps because of how I play, I read the title of this thread and thought....wha...? Where is OP getting this from?

 

But people actually using the tactical cam may get a totally different feel from the game.

[Pasquale1234]

They are going to Action RPG only next. Dragon Age is a popular franchise that needs to make money, and the action rpg is where the money is for this type of game. Or not, we will see what happens with sales for DA:I.
 
I think they had a very solid fan base, and they should have catered to that fan base and set themselves apart as something different in the marketplace, carve a niche that would have been unassailable.
 
There seem to be some wild ideas floating around in EA and Bioware about what Dragon Age should be, where the money is, and all the NEW players that they can get. Next thing they're going to try to make a multiplayer only MMO game with a cash shop and call it Dragon Age 4. ridiculous, in my view. 
 
There was a core game mechanic that worked. Why change it to something halfway between action, and halfway between tactical?

It's a pretty darned risky strategy. How well it will work remains to be seen.

They had a good thing going with DAO, but in their efforts to attract a different audience, they have alienated quite a few people who preferred the former gameplay.

[Sevitan7]

Origins was pause-based? I pause less in DAO than I do in Skyrim. And thanks to tactics being nerfed I'll pause more in DAI, too.

I don't think I know what you're trying to convey with "paused-based."

 

Pause was a mechanical choice, and it was very hand for playing the game on Nightmare. Perhaps it's unnecessary on lower difficulties or if someone is looking for some sort of twitch based RTS experience, but the game was build around the ability to stop time and issue commands at will.

 

 

Dunno about DA2 -- I could've sworn active dodging was the way to go there.

 

There was no active dodging in DA2. The system, despite what many people keep parroting, was very close to Origins.

 

"Active" dodging was technically possible through exploiting the system. Many melee enemies had slow attack animations that they would stop if you moved out of their range. The "hit" effect did not take effect until a certain point in the animation, and since you could move away to cancel them, you could easily kite many melee enemies.

 

That was a clear exploit and not intedned design.

[Morroian]

I've got to ask, what series?

 

The PC crowd who are criticising DA:I didn't like DA2 and its expansions either, and generally view all the multiplayer and free2play games as non-canon money-grabs, which was also the view at the time of the DA:O DLC. So you're not really fans of the series, you're fans of one game. Indeed, a console player who never played DA:O but plays DA2 and DA:I on his X-box can better claim to be a fan of the series. 

 

This is actually wrong. I like both DAO and DA2. DA2 had issues but I still enjoyed it. IMHO DA2 got the combat mostly right which is why its mystifying to me why DAI is worse.

[Morroian]

To add to my own topic. I just played the game with an Xbox controller. 

 

It was like I was playing a completely different game. Everything just flows smoothly one to the other in the Action camera mode. 

I had no problems chaining regular attacks with Shield blocks, with taunts with my Warrior.

 

My Knight Enchanter popped a Barrier , then rushed forward to close the gap and started slashing with the spirit sword! All in a matter of seconds without even thinking about it. I even popped an Immolate which was on the second page of powers in the middle of combat which felt extremely satisfying.

 

I understand why people who are playing the game with a controller have no clue what keyboard and mouse players are referring to.

 

The game was definitely created to be played with a controller. The combat decisions and design decisions make complete sense when you use the controller, you would wonder how it could have been designed any other way if all you used was a game controller.

 

Until the desginers and developers start playing with the mouse and keyboard they won't have a clue what we are talking about.

 

Quoted for emphasis, this is telling.

[Sartoz]

 snip

.....

Dragon Age is not an action RPG, and nor should it be (in my opinion). It's a classic RPG as KOTOR and Baldur's Gate, where the roleplaying statistics that I choose and build up, and especially the tactics that I use combat, are a lot more important than my own button-mashing and aiming.

Where Inquisition goes wrong is that it tries to be an action RPG and a classic RPG at the same time. I was expecting it to be a classic RPG, as Origins and DA2, DA2 started the development away from tactical thinking, but it was okay in my opinion since we could customize the tactics menu, assign attribute points, my character would continuously attack a target when ordered etc. - things that are now gone in Inquisition.

 

There are so very few good CRPGs left, so to watch Dragon Age transform into an action RPG, well, it wasn't what I expected... Heck I still want a KOTOR 3

 

I loved the tactical list in DA2 and what you could do with it. DAI is an action RPG because I just can't use the TAC CAM. The camera tries to be smart but suffers horribly. Until DAI, I never knew that my ranged characters could also be melee ones.

 

It's too bad the game was launched "unfinished".   I am, also, thankful that it plays on my machine.

[Shelled]

I loved the tactical list in DA2 and what you could do with it. DAI is an action RPG because I just can't use the TAC CAM. The camera tries to be smart but suffers horribly. Until DAI, I never knew that my ranged characters could also be melee ones.

 

It's too bad the game was launched "unfinished".   I am, also, thankful that it plays on my machine.

I actually wish it didn't run on my system, then I wouldn't have had to experience how bad it is...

[AlanC9]

Pause was a mechanical choice, and it was very hand for playing the game on Nightmare. Perhaps it's unnecessary on lower difficulties or if someone is looking for some sort of twitch based RTS experience, but the game was build around the ability to stop time and issue commands at will.

I play on Nightmare myself. Origins combat is slow enough that you shouldn't really need to pause much if you've set up your quickslots properly; usually just when you need something in particular from one of the companions. DA2's a little harder since things can go to pieces pretty fast.

There was no active dodging in DA2. The system, despite what many people keep parroting, was very close to Origins.

"Active" dodging was technically possible through exploiting the system. Many melee enemies had slow attack animations that they would stop if you moved out of their range. The "hit" effect did not take effect until a certain point in the animation, and since you could move away to cancel them, you could easily kite many melee enemies.

Hmm. If you say so. I always assumed that this was deliberate design, mostly because I can't imagine the Ancient Rock Wraith, for instance, being tolerable without using the technique. I imagine that's the conclusion a lot of people came to. But I can see us all being wrong.

[AlanC9]

My Knight Enchanter popped a Barrier , then rushed forward to close the gap and started slashing with the spirit sword! All in a matter of seconds without even thinking about it. I even popped an Immolate which was on the second page of powers in the middle of combat which felt extremely satisfying.
 

Walk me through this a bit. How come you have to think about what you're doing with a controller but don't have to with a keyboard?

[Brogan]

This is actually wrong. I like both DAO and DA2. DA2 had issues but I still enjoyed it. IMHO DA2 got the combat mostly right which is why its mystifying to me why DAI is worse.

 

The DA2 game I just finished to lead up to release had, I believe, over 100 mods in total.  That included alot of texture replacers to make the game look better, but also alot of rule tweaks and item mods.

 

Also, I had not played the Legacy or Mark of the Assasin DLC's when they first came out so I added them as well.

 

Was actually a very good time.
 

[10K]

I just want to say I was there when Origins first was released. I bought each game in the series and would consider myself a loyal DA fan.I agree with them moving away from tatic combat. DA2 combat IMO was loads better then Origins and Inquisition is the best so far. It's just missing tactic lists. So I don't think they're looking to appeal to those whom like faster combat. I think they're trying to find a balance between both types.

[Morroian]

I just want to say I was there when Origins first was released. I bought each game in the series and would consider myself a loyal DA fan.I agree with them moving away from tatic combat. DA2 combat IMO was loads better then Origins and Inquisition is the best so far. It's just missing tactic lists. So I don't think they're looking to appeal to those whom like faster combat. I think they're trying to find a balance between both types.

 

Do you play using K&M? The issue isn't just tactics but the sheer clunkiness of using K&M. Combined with the tac cam not being well implemented.

[Brogan]

I just want to say I was there when Origins first was released. I bought each game in the series and would consider myself a loyal DA fan.I agree with them moving away from tatic combat. DA2 combat IMO was loads better then Origins and Inquisition is the best so far. It's just missing tactic lists. So I don't think they're looking to appeal to those whom like faster combat. I think they're trying to find a balance between both types.

 

I can understand the point you are making, but you are going to need to explain the bolded part above.  Why do you personally feel this way?

[giveamanafish...]

There are two points that people seem to gloss over when they try to use Dragon Age Origins to represent their ideal of non-'button-mashing', thinking gamers' combat.

 

1) DAO, with the Fade sequence in the Mages Tower, had the longest single sequence (hours it feels like),  of mandatory single player gameplay in the DA series. I don't think it's possible to get through the Fade without using reactive gameplay, where positioning and movement are very important. I certainly doubt you can just rely on your stats and attributes and the  tactics menu. The long wind-up on some talents in DAO added to the need to properly position your character - to dodge. Since you were the only target for enemies, you could take a lot of damage or even die before casting a spell or whatnot, if you didn't move.

There were also limited or single party sequences in most of the origin stories as well as the option to engage whathisname in single-player combat at the Landsmeet.

 

2) DAO had very limited control possibilities in the tactics menu compared to DA2. For most of the game you never had much more than 5 tactic sentences available to each character -- just a bit more than enough to manage your character's substained talents. DA2 gave you a lot more room to input tactic commands as well as more condition and response options.

 

 

Bottom line. Origins was in fact an early example in the DA universe of action Rpg combat, if you want to call it that, just it was slow. DAO required twitch-based control by the player, just the twitch was more like a movement (?).  Origins did favour pause and play or overhead camera (on PC) combat, but this was a necessity for the player and not a choice in part  because of the limited tactical menu. (The weak party AI in DAO and DA2, was also a factor and something which I was hoping DAI would remedy).

[Sevitan7]

Hmm. If you say so. I always assumed that this was deliberate design, mostly because I can't imagine the Ancient Rock Wraith, for instance, being tolerable without using the technique. I imagine that's the conclusion a lot of people came to. But I can see us all being wrong.

 

The Rock Wraith was designed to be an MMO style boss where you hide at the appropriate moment in the right spot. That's very different from moving away from an enemy before he finishes his attack animation in order to cancel his attack.

 

 

DA2 combat IMO was loads better then Origins

 

It was virtually the same exact combat system mechanically. The statistical numerical values and animations were different, but no actual action elements were implemented in DA2 over Origins, despite what the marketers tried to sell it as and despite that someone had the inane idea that mashing a button to auto-attack was a good idea.