228 réponses à ce sujet

[Taritu]

Yeah. This is a huge problem for mages. I'm level 9 and I can already see I'm about to run out.  No, I don't want to be switching my bar between fights, and if that';s what they wanted then they should have created sets, which they did not do.

 

I am perplexed at the design decisions in this game. Twitch combat with animations you can't cancel, no auto-attack, a tactical camera which doesn't go high enough and which gets stuck on terrain, hitboxes which are too small, and on and on.

 

But this is actually easy to fix in a patch, just add another bar on top of the one we already have, with a toggle in the menu (for PC).  For consoles, stick in a radial menu: this is a game with pause, after all.

 

I really like the story of this game, but the actual gameplay is often extraordinarily frustrating. I"m constantly fighting the AI and the interface to get my party to do what I want.

 

I find some of the problems unbelievable, like the pathing issues in caves. It is simply not credible that testing didn't catch those problems.

 

But whatever.  One thing that is easy to fix is the action bar problem. And it takes almost nothing to fill it up as a mage.  Finish a couple trees and go into your spec and you've already exceeded it. I cannot even imagine what Bioware designers were thinking.

[Swordfishtrombone]

ALTHOUGH, I do agree that some kind of "loadout" where we can quickly swap between different "loadouts" out of combat would be a nice addition. Especially in MP where your party composition and skills are much more important and are not under your control. 

 

I don't think that that would merely be a "nice addition", but rather an absolute requirement to justify the 8 slot limit. If you could easily switch between preset 8 slot sets, that might actually help make the limit a real tactical element, rather than a source of frustration.

 

Of course, if you could switch between the sets in combat, then that would be equivalent to having no limit. Which would be fine by me - much better than what we have now. But if they do have an intent to bring some tactical limitations to it, then perhaps allow switching between the sets whenever, but add a cool down time to the switch in combat.

[Damazig]

It would all be cool if they did give any of those options to get more action slots, but it doesn't seem like they will... they went "arcade" action style with this game, heck why did they even keep calling mana for that action bar on mages? it's the exact same thing as the rage/action bar for warriors and rogues, its 0 - 100, you don't get more than that... heck it might have been for the cannon/lore to remain the same, so they even let it have the blue colour associated with mana, but it is nothing like the tipical mana most are used to, that increases with level or gear or stats.

[Vapaa]

They wrote the combat rules around having 8 abilities at any one time. They would have to rebalance every encounter. In the entire game. That's my assumption anyway.

False, the game is build around limited healing and is attritional, the 8 ability limit has no sense because ability use is already limited by cooldown and mana/stamina.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

False, the game is build around limited healing and is attritional, the 8 ability limit has no sense because ability use is already limited by cooldown and mana/stamina.

 

Pehaps, my only other suggestion is that it's to make the game more action oriented. Less abilities to search for means faster decisions, I guess?

[robertthebard]

Pehaps, my only other suggestion is that it's to make the game more action oriented. Less abilities to search for means faster decisions, I guess?

Most people that play these kinds of games, or in MMOs, have a hotkey layout that they use. It's muscle memory, so no endless searching. They know what's where, and they just push buttons, which would, it would seem, be more intuitive for an "Action" RPG. I have the issue with my rogue, in that I can't have stealth and the poison skill on my hot bar if I'm going to keep my other main talents running. So, I have to gimp my DPS in an action game to be more tactical. "But the boss is immune to poison, so you won't want it on the hotbar" doesn't mean the trash that spawns during the boss fight is immune to poison, and the faster I can clear the trash, the smoother my fight's going to go.

So, with the hotbar limit, and the "tactics" screen limitations, there's really nothing all that tactical about combat. It is, as I predicted pre-release, a "Generalist's Paradise", in that I can't focus my mage on one particular element, unless, of course, I want to change party members at every new camp, "just in case". I'll also note here that they saw this coming: Has anyone else noticed that your "Ice Mage" can break frost barriers on caves, with a cold based staff? You can. Why do you suppose they did that, despite what the message says when you walk up to it? My theory? They knew it would make people mad.

[Lethys1]

It doesn't seem like the game is balanced for removing skills, especially on PC where timing-based skills like block and slash or shield wall are inherently more difficult than if they were with just a button press on a controller.  For all systems, the rogue isn't very powerful with such limited number of skills.  Stealth is basically mandatory to be at all useful, so there's one.  2 more potentially taken away by focus abilities.  Then the trees with more skills are inherently worse off because you don't have enough passives, so your character is weaker and the skills you'd have to make up for that weakness are nullified because of spec skills.  Yes spec skills are generally better, but they still make you lose those other skills, thus limiting your overall strength as a character.

 

And any game where re-specs are almost mandatory is absolutely flawed in its design.  Why do you think they only charge one gold?  It's a bit ridiculous, actually.

 

And if the game was balanced for skill removal via 8 slot maximum, it wasn't done very well.  Each skill needs to be viable for one of those slots then, and that's just not the case.  There's no reason my focus abilities should take up slots, at the very least.  They should be exempted from the skill slots.  And at the very, very minimum, at least make the Inquisitor specific focus be separate from the other skill slots, because that taking up a skill is really taxing for the rest of my skills.  I need more skills to make the game work.  Rogues need skills.  I hate taking passive after passive over skills simply because I have no place for those skills, and I hate wasting points in skills I obviously won't need because of the way the trees work.

 

It's just another small problem among a list of infinite small problems in an otherwise really good game.  It's such a shame that these issues exist.  It's like they had this amazing thing and did everything they could to annoy players in these very small ways.  Ah well.

[Vapaa]

Pehaps, my only other suggestion is that it's to make the game more action oriented. Less abilities to search for means faster decisions, I guess?

No, not in a game you can pause at any moment for as long as you like to think on your next move.

And any game where re-specs are almost mandatory is absolutely flawed in its design.  Why do you think they only charge one gold?  It's a bit ridiculous, actually.

Only the first costs one gold, that's because you have fixed starting abilities so you can get rid of them, the respec is not mandatory, it's a feature.

[Damazig]

No, not in a game you can pause at any moment for as long as you like to think on your next move.


Only the first costs one gold, that's because you have fixed starting abilities so you can get rid of them, the respec is not mandatory, it's a feature.

Its almost mandatory, especially at higher difficulties, with all your characters, seeing they only give you the 8 slots, and you get filled with useless spells you cant use druing fights, in harder difficulties you need to try and optimize as best as possible.

Again you can see it as non mandatory as much as playing  and finishing the game on normal or easy, without breaking a sweat, even without the mandatory giving any spells/skills AT ALL to your main character, just make him ranged...

[Vapaa]

Its almost mandatory, especially at higher difficulties, with all your characters, seeing they only give you the 8 slots, and you get filled with useless spells you cant use druing fights, in harder difficulties you need to try and optimize as best as possible.

Again you can see it as non mandatory as much as playing  and finishing the game on normal or easy, without breaking a sweat, even without the mandatory giving any spells/skills AT ALL to your main character, just make him ranged...

 

I was talking of respec, ie clearing your build and starting again, not swaping your abilities on the hotbar.

[robertthebard]

I was talking of respec, ie clearing your build and starting again, not swaping your abilities on the hotbar.

You're going to need to do it, if you specialized in a spell school. Otherwise, your firemage Inquisitor is going to be a spectator against the first dragon in the game. Doing 4 damage on a big hit just isn't going to be contributing to the group's effort to take it down. So it's generalist, or get ready to be spending gold on respec's.

[King Dragonlord]

Is this news to people? It was announced months ago that there were spots for 8 abilities.

Yes and as you know we all follow all the press releases on every game we're thinking of buying. And furthermore, announcing that your new game is going to have inferior options to your previous games totally justifies it and invalidates all the complaints.

Seriously, this is a nonsensical but common argument on fan boards. Was that to be our only window of opportunity to complain?

[AshesEleven]

Yes and as you know we all follow all the press releases on every game we're thinking of buying. And furthermore, announcing that your new game is going to have inferior options to your previous games totally justifies it and invalidates all the complaints.

Seriously, this is a nonsensical but common argument on fan boards. Was that to be our only window of opportunity to complain?

It's just annoying to hear people complain, accept the changes and then not discuss it anymore..only to again hear the same complaints that people have already made and then accepted. It's not an inferior change but whatever I'm tired of the argument.

[Ieolus]

It's just annoying to hear people complain, accept the changes and then not discuss it anymore..only to again hear the same complaints that people have already made and then accepted. It's not an inferior change but whatever I'm tired of the argument.

Accept the changes?  I complained back then and never accepted the changes.  I'm just glad the game is now released and we can see how utterly stupid this design decision actually is in practice.

[AshesEleven]

Accept the changes?  I complained back then and never accepted the changes.  I'm just glad the game is now released and we can see how utterly stupid this design decision actually is in practice.

 

Oh yes!  We all agree it's the stupidest thing in the world and we all agree on this topic and we are a complete hive mind!

 

Oh never mind, you can only speak for yourself.  Some people think it's stupid, some people don't mind it, some people think it's better.  Personally I'm in the "eh" camp.  It's not a huge bother on me, though I'm not a fan of it.  

[The Baconer]

They wrote the combat rules around having 8 abilities at any one time. They would have to rebalance every encounter. In the entire game. That's my assumption anyway.

 

Nah. They really wouldn't.

[Ieolus]

Oh yes!  We all agree it's the stupidest thing in the world and we all agree on this topic and we are a complete hive mind!

 

Oh never mind, you can only speak for yourself.  Some people think it's stupid, some people don't mind it, some people think it's better.  Personally I'm in the "eh" camp.  It's not a huge bother on me, though I'm not a fan of it.  

 

That is great!  Why are you bothering to read this thread then?

 

How about this for a compromise.  People who want extra slots on their bar, can extend the bar (ala Origins).  People who would rather play as originally designed, can keep their 8 lousy slots.  Everyone is happy.

[AshesEleven]

That is great!  Why are you bothering to read this thread then?

 

How about this for a compromise.  People who want extra slots on their bar, can extend the bar (ala Origins).  People who would rather play as originally designed, can keep their 8 lousy slots.  Everyone is happy.

 

That's not a compromise  Literally no one would keep their bar at 8 slots, if you have the option for more you take it.

 

Anyway I *wasn't* reading this thread until someone quoted me from 3 days ago.

 

But I'll leave you now, obviously this makes you angry.  

[Ieolus]

Yes, I'm totally angry.  I'm gonna hunt you down and make you eat darkspawn gizzards.

 

And yes, that is a perfect compromise.  Just because you wouldn't be able to summon the willpower to play as intended, doesn't mean others couldn't.

 

Why is there a friendly fire toggle?  Why make it optional?

[King Dragonlord]

Theres nothing tactical about the eight slot limit. By the time you've detected a combatant, the game usually has thrown you into combat mode. This means you have to pick the most generalized selections.

And since wringing smart behavior out of your squad is an exercise in futility and the controls suck, I just put the game on casual and hope they fix this stuff before my next playthrough

[Damazig]

I was talking of respec, ie clearing your build and starting again, not swaping your abilities on the hotbar.

I was talking about the exact same thing, you either go with a predetermined path, and actually have to "save" points from lvl to lvl to actually get a good well thought spec in one go (there is no such thing, especially not in this game) or if you are playing in harder difficulties with friendly fire like I am, you almost forced to respec several times AT LEAST if your main char is a mage.

Otherwise you'll be filled with "filler" spells you just get, cause you want another down the road, and when you get it you just remove it from the action bar and never even see it again, to me this is no fun and not tactical at all.

 

 

Why is there a friendly fire toggle?  Why make it optional?

 

Unfortunatly my friend, more and more I believe that the Friendly Fire toggle is only there because they thought it would make the "Origins" crowd happy, and it wouldn't be much work just to have there as an option, yet they did no testing or ballancing around it, and made even worse with the retarded AI of you followers, that even when you put the AI OFF, and spam HOLD, they will still move over your AoE firewall or something like that... it's pretty sad

 

 

Theres nothing tactical about the eight slot limit. By the time you've detected a combatant, the game usually has thrown you into combat mode. This means you have to pick the most generalized selections.

And since wringing smart behavior out of your squad is an exercise in futility and the controls suck, I just put the game on casual and hope they fix this stuff before my next playthrough

Exacly my point on previous comments, this isn't The Witcher where you are preparing for a fight with a werewolf and know what his weaknesses are, you are constantly being thrown into group of mobs that are immune to fire side by side with others immune to ice for example, and there is nothing tactical, or of preparation for that, you need to go generalized specc, which then poses the problem of tons of seplls, and never enough slots for them. At least on hard and nightmare there are plenty of enemies just taking 4 dmg from my staff, something you can't switch in combat either. Sense, it makes none.

[Travie]

OP: This is the design decision bioware has gone with. You must choose strategically which spells are worth taking and which are not. 

 

It has nothing to do with consoles vs PC or MP and SP. 

 

*Cough* Bullshit *cough*

[robertthebard]

Oh yes!  We all agree it's the stupidest thing in the world and we all agree on this topic and we are a complete hive mind!
 
Oh never mind, you can only speak for yourself.  Some people think it's stupid, some people don't mind it, some people think it's better.  Personally I'm in the "eh" camp.  It's not a huge bother on me, though I'm not a fan of it.

Nobody asked you to join a "hive mind", and nobody asked you to open the thread if you knew what it was about, and didn't want to read it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I never accepted that these changes were going in either, and frankly, what you're comfortable/ok with doesn't really matter to me. If you started a thread tonight claiming this was the greatest thing since sliced bread, I wouldn't even read it, let alone post in it. Why? Because I already know it's not, it can't be because butter, duh, but my opinion about the changes is plain for anyone that wants to look at the threads related to this topic. I disagree with it.

[Ieolus]

Unfortunatly my friend, more and more I believe that the Friendly Fire toggle is only there because they thought it would make the "Origins" crowd happy, and it wouldn't be much work just to have there as an option, yet they did no testing or ballancing around it, and made even worse with the retarded AI of you followers, that even when you put the AI OFF, and spam HOLD, they will still move over your AoE firewall or something like that... it's pretty sad

I know, I was just trying to demonstrate to our friend AshesEleven that there can be options put into the game for our enjoyment without ruining things for everyone else.  This is a single player game afterall.

 

Of course I play with friendly fire on, frustrations and all.  Anything else would feel like cheating to me.

[Damazig]

I know, I was just trying to demonstrate to our friend AshesEleven that there can be options put into the game for our enjoyment without ruining things for everyone else.  This is a single player game afterall.

 

Of course I play with friendly fire on, frustrations and all.  Anything else would feel like cheating to me.

Yep, I have always have friendly fire on aswell, and haven't tried the game below hard at least, and one can hope that they give us simple things such as more than the 8 slots, but if they see it as intended gameplay style, which makes no sense to me but, they will keep it that way, even if just talking about single player, I think.