228 réponses à ce sujet

[aaarcher86]

It's not that the console can't do more than 8 spells, it can, however it doesn't go well with the majority of console gamer's play style and gamepad controller that is more focused on action oriented gameplay, eventhough it's a lot less precise and a lot less adaptable than mouse keyboard that is associated largely to PC.
 
The trend of third person, rpg going more and more in to the action style gameplay, gamepad/controler, and less buttons to use are all associated with console gaming, and that's a fact. To my knowledge there are very very few PC only games that have been or are being developed with gamepads or controllers in mind, being that the vast majority won't even consider it.
 
Console ports such as Inquisition clearly being one (bad UI, bad mouse keyboard optimization, worse A.I. options in the series), along with the more action style gameplay are mostly due to the majority of console gamers prefering X type of gameplay.

It doesn't hurt anyone to keep the action wheel in. It's not mandatory to use if it doesn't fit a play style. The action wheel is still in the game - it wouldn't have been difficult to allow ability choosing (again) from there.

It's a design choice - just like limiting potions this time around. Thinking it's a shitty design choice is fine. The console gamer hate is not (not you personally).

[Morroian]

I agree with you, and I hate what they keep doing to PC games for console sales, but that's how it is, even the Dev said it to me directly when I asked him about it, that maybe they should consider next time having a Q&A team specific for keyboard and mouse ONLY, which they DIDN'T in this game, so they were already biased seeing they already had to test the game in 4 different consoles with only a gamepad, so most of them did the same for PC, tested it with a gamepad. This was stated by a Bioware developer already.

 

Really, do you have a link? Cause thats damning if true, and implies both poor project management and poor QA.

[Damazig]

Really, do you have a link? Cause thats damning if true, and implies both poor project management and poor QA.

 

http://forum.bioware...erns/?bioware=1

 

then press the button saying show Bioware only, then read what he said on post number 12, and what his reply to me on post number 24.

 

I asked him "Do you not think that seeing Q&A would be biased seeing they had to test/work on the game for 5 platforms, and 4 would only have a controller, that obviously they'd be biased mainly due to already being more accustomed to using the controller, therefor being imperative to have a Q&A team specific for the PC alone?"

 

and he said "I couldn't definitively state how strong the biases are, but it's an interesting thought experiment (and something for us to discuss in our various post-release post-mortems.  PC control feedback is something I know I, and a few others, have brought up as topics to be discussed in more detail).  I certainly wouldn't discount it.

 

(In case anyone is curious, a post-mortem is a look back at things that work and things that didn't work, and where are places for improvement going forward and so forth)."

[tris1]

Yep ran out of slots and I don't even get to use 2 of the defensive skills not even using the focus power of my rogue as I'm very limited to what I can use. You should not really have a limit to skills. For consoles I can see why as there is not many button combos but pc should have more. The skill slots should increase to at least 10 or 15 as that should be plenty of slots then. Dragon age origins and 2 I could use as many as I wanted. I'm seeing the game as being more of being used and made for consoles. Increase slots

[aaarcher86]

Yep ran out of slots and I don't even get to use 2 of the defensive skills not even using the focus power of my rogue as I'm very limited to what I can use. You should not really have a limit to skills. For consoles I can see why as there is not many button combos but pc should have more. The skill slots should increase to at least 10 or 15 as that should be plenty of slots then. Dragon age origins and 2 I could use as many as I wanted. I'm seeing the game as being more of being used and made for consoles. Increase slots

Consoles had unlimited spell usage for Origins and DA2 also.

OMG WUT?! This change isn't about consoles and their buttons? IMPOSSIBRU

[archav3n]

Is it me or the number of skills in the skilltrees are severely limited. I remembered Dragon Age 2 has more? Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Swordfishtrombone]

Is it me or the number of skills in the skilltrees are severely limited. I remembered Dragon Age 2 has more? Correct me if i'm wrong.

 

Yes, there seem to be a lot more passive benefit skills. If that wasn't the case, I suspect the 8 skill slot limit would become an issue much earlier in the game, and would engender even more dissatisfaction than it currently does.

 

I think what they may have been going for is kind of a blast from the past - something that takes influence from AD&D rules, where mages had to memorize the spells they were going to use, and they had a limited number of spell slots. After memorizing, they would have to rest, and you could use the spell in each spell slot once, before resting again.

 

This is kind of a much less severe version of that, except applied to all classes.

 

The AD&D magic DID force you to make tactical decisions, but I think that mostly it was tactical decisions that relied on attack-fail-because-you-needed-that-fire-resist-spell-in-this-battle-reload-rememorize-rest-redo. That's not the kind of tactical play I particularly enjoy. It worked in the BG series because nobody knew better - the game was, after all, based on the well known rule set. Even in BG2 though, I preferred to play sorcerers, because they didn't need to prep their spells.

 

I'd rather that this sort of source for "tactical complexity" was left in the past, and any tactical complexity would involve decisions made during the battle - and for that, it would be very good to have access to ALL your skills, not just a select eight.

[Obadiah]

Does the Character Tactics use all available skills in combat, or do the characters just use the 8 skills equipped in slots? I know the skills can all be enabled on the Tactics screen, just not sure if the companions/pc use them all when not controlled.

[Sideshow Jed]

Does the Character Tactics use all available skills in combat, or do the characters just use the 8 skills equipped in slots? I know the skills can all be enabled on the Tactics screen, just not sure if the companions/pc use them all when not controlled.

 

They do not. Set all skills in the toolbar to "do not use" and you will use only the standard attack. So all that talk about how there's no tactics involved in skill choice is as not-at-all-laughably incorrect as the implementation of such tactics is not-at-all-laughably un-fun.

[Gibbaddy]

Cant play with 8 skills? You suck.

[Meeeps]

Is this issue fixed with the upcomming patch today?

[Gibbaddy]

Its not an 'issue' its an important part of the games design. All of you people hoping this gets fixed, i strongly suggest you hold your breath. For the good of the rest of us.

[Obadiah]

They do not. Set all skills in the toolbar to "do not use" and you will use only the standard attack. So all that talk about how there's no tactics involved in skill choice is as not-at-all-laughably incorrect as the implementation of such tactics is not-at-all-laughably un-fun.

 
Right, but if you set the skills so that they are all enabled in Tactics, but only equip 8 in a toolbar or controller button slots (because that is all we can equip), do the characters use the other skills that are enabled in Tactics, but that would not be available to the player if the player directly controlled the character?

 

Oh I get it. Disable skills in the toolbar and the characters will only auto-attack. Nevermind.

[TheSchachter]

You know, I find it funny that a system that *forces* the player to more carefuly select which active abilities they want to learn and invest in is supposedly more "casual". 

 

If you've only got spells (and a staff) of a single element and find yourself useless against an enemy, you've failed to plan for that possibility.

 

If you have too many active spells to fit on your skill bar, you've failed to build your character intelligently by investing in passives and upgrading select actives for more powerful effects.

 

Every game limits choices in some way or another. Bad design =/= design I don't like.

 

Finally, about controllers and consoles... let's consider this from a detached point of view:

 

The game is being released on 5 platforms simultaneously.

 

-4 platforms only use controllers.

-1 platform (PC) can use either KB/M or controller.

 

Why, exactly, would the game be designed around KB/M first in this situation? Having design choices that accomodate controllers is simply in the game's interest. It doesn't make the design inherently bad. Less complex, perhaps, but complexity isn't the same as depth. Thought it was more complex, I'm not entirely convinced that DA:O had much more depth than Inquisition.

[Obadiah]

I think this would be less of a complaint if one of those tutorial or codex entries just flat out said, "a character can only have 8 skills equipped and enabled at one time." Maybe it does and I just missed it.

[TheSchachter]

I think this would be less of a complaint if one of those tutorial or codex entries just flat out said, "a character can only have 8 skills equipped and enabled at one time." Maybe it does and I just missed it.

 

This I completely agree with, however. I don't recall it being mentionned, either.

[strangerism]

I am in the same pond as you although I am playing with a controller even as on pc. The problem is that I want to respec my 2h warrior with a bunch of abilities from the 2h skill tree, block and slash, pommel strike, wirlwind plus going deep into the reaver tree. If we count all the reaver active abilities 2h as above and the inquisitor mark there is clearly a lack of space in the current set up.

 

This is not about making my char overpowered as it is already to be honest because of the crafting that can make you a bit op and the fact that you can over level enemies quite fast (I had to up difficulty to nightmare to make the game still enjoyable), the reason is that I want to make the gameplay of my char a bit more reactive (thus the block and slash and pommel strike) rather than limiting myself as is to just spam the basic attack and occasionally hitting the mighty blow. Let us create our playstyle I beg you.

 

Now the idea is give us the possibility to map some abilities in the direction pad, seems to me the better place where to put those modal abilities (on-off) and the inquisitor mark or focus abilities as they are once in a while available. This obliviously with the increase of the action bar space for the keyboard and mouse lads. It seems a fair request.

 

Also at this point, being quite in the middle of the game with crafted gear and having done a bit of side quests it is clear to me the the nightmare difficulty is not enough to keep the game balanced. It is time to start thinking at something more hard than nightmare, just increasing the damage and hp of mobs would be fine, not asking fancy things here. It's not about boosting our ego it's to give the option to adjust the challenge accordingly to our levelling and character development.

 

thanks for your support.

[strangerism]

You know, I find it funny that a system that *forces* the player to more carefuly select which active abilities they want to learn and invest in is supposedly more "casual". 

 

If you've only got spells (and a staff) of a single element and find yourself useless against an enemy, you've failed to plan for that possibility.

 

If you have too many active spells to fit on your skill bar, you've failed to build your character intelligently by investing in passives and upgrading select actives for more powerful effects.

 

Every game limits choices in some way or another. Bad design =/= design I don't like.

 

Finally, about controllers and consoles... let's consider this from a detached point of view:

 

The game is being released on 5 platforms simultaneously.

 

-4 platforms only use controllers.

-1 platform (PC) can use either KB/M or controller.

 

Why, exactly, would the game be designed around KB/M first in this situation? Having design choices that accomodate controllers is simply in the game's interest. It doesn't make the design inherently bad. Less complex, perhaps, but complexity isn't the same as depth. Thought it was more complex, I'm not entirely convinced that DA:O had much more depth than Inquisition.

please read my post and you will understand this is not an unfair request. let us not get stuck on principles for the sake of it 

[strangerism]

I am in the same pond as you although I am playing with a controller even as on pc. The problem is that I want to respec my 2h warrior with a bunch of abilities from the 2h skill tree, block and slash, pommel strike, wirlwind plus going deep into the reaver tree. If we count all the reaver active abilities 2h as above and the inquisitor mark there is clearly a lack of space in the current set up.

 

This is not about making my char overpowered as it is already to be honest because of the crafting that can make you a bit op and the fact that you can over level enemies quite fast (I had to up difficulty to nightmare to make the game still enjoyable), the reason is that I want to make the gameplay of my char a bit more reactive (thus the block and slash and pommel strike) rather than limiting myself as is to just spam the basic attack and occasionally hitting the mighty blow. Let us create our playstyle I beg you.

 

Now the idea is give us the possibility to map some abilities in the direction pad, seems to me the better place where to put those modal abilities (on-off) and the inquisitor mark or focus abilities as they are once in a while available. This obliviously with the increase of the action bar space for the keyboard and mouse lads. It seems a fair request.

 

Also at this point, being quite in the middle of the game with crafted gear and having done a bit of side quests it is clear to me the the nightmare difficulty is not enough to keep the game balanced. It is time to start thinking at something more hard than nightmare, just increasing the damage and hp of mobs would be fine, not asking fancy things here. It's not about boosting our ego it's to give the option to adjust the challenge accordingly to our levelling and character development.

 

thanks for your support.

I forgot to add that in my envisioned build I have grappling hook and combat roll, just to make the example fitting the issue. Now to reiterate we are not asking this to make our char superman, the game can become easy even on nightmare after skyhold once you do the many side quests in all maps, with just two abilities on your setup, because you out level everything so fast.

 

anyway people with principles will still have their head in the ground. 

[Meeeps]

Its not an 'issue' its an important part of the games design. All of you people hoping this gets fixed, i strongly suggest you hold your breath. For the good of the rest of us.

issue != bug

 

It is a gameplay issue for me, the motivation to continue with this issue is less than I hopped when I read this thread and was on level 11, now on level 15 the slot limit is breaking my motivation. I am not capable to play that way. Also the opponents seems to be underpowered to "fix" this issue.

[strangerism]

issue != bug

 

It is a gameplay issue for me, the motivation to continue with this issue is less than I hopped when I read this thread and was on level 11, now on level 15 the slot limit is breaking my motivation. I am not capable to play that way. Also the opponents seems to be underpowered to "fix" this issue.

quoting his arguments is not even worth the bandwith

[Wildspirit]

I think that in everyday life, we should only use an amount of skills equal to people with the lowest amount of those cause you know, it's unfair for someone to have more thant 8 skills to choose from for every situation. 

 

Sorry I don't want to go to my badly designed menu to set up my skill bar for each combat I plan to run into... it's beyond ridiculous. Once you have learn an ability you should be able to use at ANY TIME, as long as you fit the required mana / stamina. This is the basics of RPGs.... I mean, you don't magically forget How to Bull RUSH or to roll because you haven't enough space on your freakin skill bar ? do you ? 

[Damazig]

I think that in everyday life, we should only use an amount of skills equal to people with the lowest amount of those cause you know, it's unfair for someone to have more thant 8 skills to choose from for every situation. 

 

Sorry I don't want to go to my badly designed menu to set up my skill bar for each combat I plan to run into... it's beyond ridiculous. Once you have learn an ability you should be able to use at ANY TIME, as long as you fit the required mana / stamina. This is the basics of RPGs.... I mean, you don't magically forget How to Bull RUSH or to roll because you haven't enough space on your freakin skill bar ? do you ? 

Well tbh in most rpgs there is indeed a limit, and in many cases if you respec you end up losing the ability and "forgeting" it, my problem with Inquisition though, is having to necessarily pick several spells that I won't be able to use, just cause of the limiting 8 ability slots. Ofc you can say that in World of Warcraft the same happens if you respec, but you don't forget any of the spells while you picked them and big the difference is that in WoW you can have like 48 or more ability slots at any given time, and WoW is STILL a lot faster and far more "action/twitch" oriented, especially in pvp, than Inquisition in any circunstance.

 

The truth is, it's a trend for the consoles, it's not that consoles can't do it, they did do it in previous Dragon Age titles, they weren't limited in terms of how many abilities you could use at any given time, but the fact that they wanted the game to be more action oriented and less tactical, and have less buttons to press and pause less IS related to console gaming in general, there is no escaping that. If you consider several other "rpgs" that do that same thing where you can only pick a few of the spells you learn, most of them eventually were also meant for consoles.

[Redinel]

Cant play with 8 skills? You suck.

Of course I can play with 8 skills, FYI I can even play without using any skills - but is it fun? Well, not for me.

[hellbiter88]

This 8 ability thing is terrible on PC. Especially since I feel like I always need fade step and mark of the rift (mage build), and when I'm playing as a KE I want to be able to melee but have good ranged spells... the setup sucks. I usually end up settling for two ranged spells: static field and energy barrage.

 

I usually do

 

1. Spirit Blade
2. phase-out whatever (Knight enchanter)
3. energy barrage
4. static field
5. Barrier
6. Fade Step
7. Resurgence
8. Mark of the Rift