228 réponses à ce sujet

[strangerism]

Well tbh in most rpgs there is indeed a limit, and in many cases if you respec you end up losing the ability and "forgeting" it, my problem with Inquisition though, is having to necessarily pick several spells that I won't be able to use, just cause of the limiting 8 ability slots. Ofc you can say that in World of Warcraft the same happens if you respec, but you don't forget any of the spells while you picked them and big the difference is that in WoW you can have like 48 or more ability slots at any given time, and WoW is STILL a lot faster and far more "action/twitch" oriented, especially in pvp, than Inquisition in any circunstance.

 

The truth is, it's a trend for the consoles, it's not that consoles can't do it, they did do it in previous Dragon Age titles, they weren't limited in terms of how many abilities you could use at any given time, but the fact that they wanted the game to be more action oriented and less tactical, and have less buttons to press and pause less IS related to console gaming in general, there is no escaping that. If you consider several other "rpgs" that do that same thing where you can only pick a few of the spells you learn, most of them eventually were also meant for consoles.

let's stop the compare argument, this is a game on his own and it can be whatever it want to be. It was a design decision which during our play test (we customers) it became apparent as annoying and fun limiting. There is no harm done if it is changed and the skill bar is extended to include new skills, even the controller can support it given that the directional pad is not used at all that is 4 more skills if not 8 with the left trigger switching.

 

The point is not whether it can be done or not, the point is do bioware wants to do this change or not? and if not can they care us to tell why?

[snackrat]

Even if they only allow 8 'quickslots'... why couldn't they have an [ ^ ] arrow button next to the first one, spawning filled a list of all other unlocked abilities not slotted? It could automatically pause the game when opened, and when an ability is chosen the list automatically closes again - and only restarts time if it was running beforehand (like aiming AoE).

Much like how consoles could do with the earlier games - access to their basic locked repertoire, and then a selection wheel for anything not slotted. They could sort them by 'school' or ability tree if there's too many - just mouse over - or if they insist on capping the list too, at least let us have access to another eight. As-is none of my inqs will use late-tier abilities.

 

It would mean rarely used or conditional abilities, like focuses, revives, and such, could still be used without filling up your bar. And since that's a system the console is capable of supporting as indicated by earlier titles...

...problem now is that it is too late for such a change. :c

[Lanavis]

That's weird since consoles could pull up the action wheel and not be restricted to 8 choices in the last 2 games.

End the day - it was done to make the game more strategic. Nothing to do with console because consoles are ALSO now stuck with only 8 abilities.

OP - not sure how you missed it, but there was a HUGE debate and discussion here when it came to lights after the KBM gameplay video.

But the thing is that access to only 8 spells is not more strategic than access to all your spells.

That is as strategic as cutting off a boxer's arm (instead of having him hold one behind his back) is strategic. 

[lazysuperstar]

They can try something like LT + (right-left) dpad to browse tabs of abilities

[Lanavis]

They wrote the combat rules around having 8 abilities at any one time. They would have to rebalance every encounter. In the entire game. That's my assumption anyway.

All they would have to do is change tactics/the Companions' & PC's AI to allow more than 8 abilities to be used in any 1 encounter and change the skill slot.

The game still makes all abilities suffer a cooldown period from casting an ability so it would not require any rebalanacing of the game unless Bioware also decides to allow quick and subsequent firing off of spells.

[King Dragonlord]

Yes, there seem to be a lot more passive benefit skills. If that wasn't the case, I suspect the 8 skill slot limit would become an issue much earlier in the game, and would engender even more dissatisfaction than it currently does.
 
I think what they may have been going for is kind of a blast from the past - something that takes influence from AD&D rules, where mages had to memorize the spells they were going to use, and they had a limited number of spell slots. After memorizing, they would have to rest, and you could use the spell in each spell slot once, before resting again.
 
This is kind of a much less severe version of that, except applied to all classes.
 
The AD&D magic DID force you to make tactical decisions, but I think that mostly it was tactical decisions that relied on attack-fail-because-you-needed-that-fire-resist-spell-in-this-battle-reload-rememorize-rest-redo. That's not the kind of tactical play I particularly enjoy. It worked in the BG series because nobody knew better - the game was, after all, based on the well known rule set. Even in BG2 though, I preferred to play sorcerers, because they didn't need to prep their spells.
 
I'd rather that this sort of source for "tactical complexity" was left in the past, and any tactical complexity would involve decisions made during the battle - and for that, it would be very good to have access to ALL your skills, not just a select eight.

More like do your research beforehand and have an exit strategy ready to go. If you encounter something you didn't prepare for then adapt or use your exit strategy and change your spells. Then dominate.

But what I really miss is variety

[shama]

That's weird since consoles could pull up the action wheel and not be restricted to 8 choices in the last 2 games.

End the day - it was done to make the game more strategic. Nothing to do with console because consoles are ALSO now stuck with only 8 abilities.

OP - not sure how you missed it, but there was a HUGE debate and discussion here when it came to lights after the KBM gameplay video.

 

If you had to pull up a radial menu to fire spells/abilities then you'd be seriously slowing down the play and there would be complaints. There is a reason that bar is called quick-action/hot-link/shortcuts bar, and that is so you can fire off an ability with ease ... with a single press or click.

 

As a PC user we're used to the concept in many games, not just RPG, and the range of quick-actions normally spans "1" to "0", or "1" to "=", giving 10 or 12 things you can do quickly with a key press. Often in games the bar will extend beyond that number and the remaining items must be clicked on.

 

Playing with a game-pad you can't have 10 or 12 abilities readily available, so 4 (or 8 by use of a shift button) is the common number.

 

The tactics/strategy argument is just post-justification. No worthwhile strategy is added by limiting that quick-slot count, it just means you have to run away, rearrange your abilities, and come back again ... which isn't a particular ground-shaking strategy. As others have said much better than me, as a mage I have a large range of abilities that I may need within a single fight. It isn't just a case of choosing to arm ice, or fire, because within a single fight I may be against enemies with diverse resistances.

 

Add that all up: game-pads can only support a smaller number of instant action buttons, no worthwhile strategy comes from limiting quick-slots to 8, and PC games traditionally have 10, 12 or more quick-slots and it smells very much like a design decision dictated by input device limitations (gamepad).

[Frenrihr]

The limited abilities was supposedly because "tactical decisions"

 

Then BW removed 90% of tactics. Brilliance.

 

Hahahaha, yeah, they are full of BS.

[Morrandir]

This restriction is a great disappointment. 

 

It's a pointless design decision that makes combat even worse and that could have easily been avoided (on PC). 

[bateluer]

Parity. If consoles can't have more than 8, why PC is allowed more than that? Common sense.

 

To blazes with 'parity'. You play to the strengths of each platform. If you want the best experience possible, you go with the best platform. Usually thats PC. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a mod before long that corrects some of the mistakes and deficiencies they made with the UI. 

[Redinel]

To blazes with 'parity'. You play to the strengths of each platform. If you want the best experience possible, you go with the best platform. Usually thats PC. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised to see a mod before long that corrects some of the mistakes and deficiencies they made with the UI. 

Those were my first thoughts: "just wait for someone to release a mod". Then I read up on Frostbite 3. This engine makes it extremely hard to mod anything or to even add new content. We'd need a dev tool kit released by bioware developers team and they have already stated that they have no intention of releasing such tool.

So I'm afraid we can forget about skyrim modding freedom. They released a game with a system that many players do not appreciate/are not happy with and gave us the middle finger by taking away all the hopes of fandom creating mods desired by the community.

Sad but true.

[Serenade]

If this is a tactical reasoning by Bioware I would still like to see some sort of an option to save custom or preset 8-'slot abilities so that I can switch them before or after combat. If it's not a tactical reasoning then just give us a second skillbar, either over/under the one that's already there or by clicking an arrow that would bring up the other skillbar. Or if you want to go nuts with it, let us decide the position, size and length.

[Farangbaa]

This 8 ability thing is terrible on PC. Especially since I feel like I always need fade step and mark of the rift (mage build), and when I'm playing as a KE I want to be able to melee but have good ranged spells... the setup sucks. I usually end up settling for two ranged spells: static field and energy barrage.
 
I usually do

• 
  
• Spirit Blade
• phase-out whatever (Knight enchanter)
• energy barrage
• static field
• Barrier
• Fade Step
• Resurgence
• Mark of the Rift

Spirit Blade
Fade Cloak
Fade Step
Winter's Grasp
Barrier
Mind Blast
Resurgence
Mark of the Rift (dumped it in favor of Energy Barrage at level 20 something)

Is really all you need. You use the Fade Step to close distances fast. No need for long range spells.

Winter's grasp is used as a start up spell. After a battle your barrier will wear down and if you have that cool winter passive ability, you'll get a free spell.

[hwlrmnky]

I recently acquired my first controller. I refuse to believe this thing can't be told to access more than 8 skills. This thing is full of buttons and gizmos that can work in concert. There must be another reason skills are limited to 8.

[Redinel]

If this is a tactical reasoning by Bioware I would still like to see some sort of an option to save custom or preset 8-'slot abilities so that I can switch them before or after combat. If it's not a tactical reasoning then just give us a second skillbar, either over/under the one that's already there or by clicking an arrow that would bring up the other skillbar. Or if you want to go nuts with it, let us decide the position, size and length.

If it is indeed a 'tactical' reasoning it is quite poor. You know, it's like asking yourself a question: what would be the best set up for 8 skills that I am limited to, that would match up best with the AI companions using ALL skills I have unlocked for them?

I mean... c'mon!

[aaarcher86]

But the thing is that access to only 8 spells is not more strategic than access to all your spells.
That is as strategic as cutting off a boxer's arm (instead of having him hold one behind his back) is strategic.

Well, it's made me think a little harder on how to spec out.

[Redinel]

Well, it's made me think a little harder on how to spec out.

There's nothing hard about it, considering that you get to reset your set up infinite amount of times if needed. So you can try out many different set ups and find somehting you like - still nothing strategic about it.

[Fidite Nemini]

I expect I'm only halfway through the single player by now (at most) and currently at level 16 and I have only one slot left free. I didn't even choose a specialization yet and am just completing the Archery and Subterfuge skill tress (seriously, why are all the rogue specializations so melee focused?) and by the time I got those mastered (I will happily skip the hook in the Subterfuge skill tree, last thing I want as archer is being close to the enemy) I will have all eight slots full.

 

What's the average level progression for this game anyway? If I'm going to be out of quickslots for abilities by the time I reach around level 20, how am I supposed to use any abilities I gained from levelling up past that point? By kicking some earned abilities from my carefully engineered rotations?

[aaarcher86]

If you had to pull up a radial menu to fire spells/abilities then you'd be seriously slowing down the play and there would be complaints. There is a reason that bar is called quick-action/hot-link/shortcuts bar, and that is so you can fire off an ability with ease ... with a single press or click.
 
As a PC user we're used to the concept in many games, not just RPG, and the range of quick-actions normally spans "1" to "0", or "1" to "=", giving 10 or 12 things you can do quickly with a key press. Often in games the bar will extend beyond that number and the remaining items must be clicked on.
 
Playing with a game-pad you can't have 10 or 12 abilities readily available, so 4 (or 8 by use of a shift button) is the common number.
 
The tactics/strategy argument is just post-justification. No worthwhile strategy is added by limiting that quick-slot count, it just means you have to run away, rearrange your abilities, and come back again ... which isn't a particular ground-shaking strategy. As others have said much better than me, as a mage I have a large range of abilities that I may need within a single fight. It isn't just a case of choosing to arm ice, or fire, because within a single fight I may be against enemies with diverse resistances.
 
Add that all up: game-pads can only support a smaller number of instant action buttons, no worthwhile strategy comes from limiting quick-slots to 8, and PC games traditionally have 10, 12 or more quick-slots and it smells very much like a design decision dictated by input device limitations (gamepad).

"If you had to..." - that's the way it was. Didn't bother me at all since I personally kept my AoE abilities in there which would stop time anyway. If it irritates someone, don't use it - then everyone's happy, right? Why would it bother you, as a PC user, if my gameplay is slowed down or if I have to pull up a radial menu to grab an ability? Trying to find other ways to make the 8 abilities consoles fault after it's been explained time and again is just... Bleh

The point, which pc users seem to try and ignore, is that consoles weren't limited before in ability use age which they are constantly being blamed for now. There's still a radial menu which I need to pull up to use my potions in combat. Maybe they chose 8 because it works with the controller better, but the choice to limit abilities was a game mechanic choice. Not a platform one.

[aaarcher86]

There's nothing hard about it, considering that you get to reset your set up infinite amount of times if needed. So you can try out many different set ups and find somehting you like - still nothing strategic about it.

Welp, I'll just agree to disagree with you then. I don't have my panties in a twist about it. If I have to respec to fight a specific mob, so be it. It takes more planning than having 30 abilities at my disposal at once.

[Fidite Nemini]

It takes more planning than having 30 abilities at my disposal at once.

 

I'd say it only takes more time (and in DAI's specific context, 345 gold for the respec amulet), not more planning.

 

 

The whole system is just wasteful. It would be strategic if the level progression were so that you can only get around 8 abilities by the end of a playthrough and you'd have to carefully decide how to spec your character, but unless the last couple regions and quests suddenly start giving massively diminished experience points, I'll end up the game somewhere around level 28, with enough skill points to spend to easily reach past eight abilities, the last ones I can't use because I have no access to them in live gameplay as I can't even pause during combat and rearrange my quickslot abilities as that menu is locked during fights.

 

It's not strategic, it's plain waste of skill points. The only logical choice with an effective return for you as a player after you reached the quickslot limit is to only spend your earned skill points from level-ups on passive abilities, most of which would only tangibly effect your playstyle via attribute boosts because their passive boni do not interact with your active abilities from other trees.

 

 

Nevermind thinking about the luxury of having companions' abilities on your quickslot so you wont have to switch characters for every action you'd need/want on a hunch.

 

 

 

12 is the absolute minimum number of quickslots for DAI as it stands right now, I'd say.

[Redinel]

I'd say it only takes more time (and in DAI's specific context, 345 gold for the respec amulet), not more planning.

 

 

The whole system is just wasteful. It would be strategic if the level progression were so that you can only get around 8 abilities by the end of a playthrough and you'd have to carefully decide how to spec your character, but unless the last couple regions and quests suddenly start giving massively diminished experience points, I'll end up the game somewhere around level 28, with enough skill points to spend to easily reach past eight abilities, the last ones I can't use because I have no access to them in live gameplay as I can't even pause during combat and rearrange my quickslot abilities as that menu is locked during fights.

 

It's not strategic, it's plain waste of skill points. The only logical choice with an effective return for you as a player after you reached the quickslot limit is to only spend your earned skill points from level-ups on passive abilities, most of which would only tangibly effect your playstyle via attribute boosts because their passive boni do not interact with your active abilities from other trees.

 

 

Nevermind thinking about the luxury of having companions' abilities on your quickslot so you wont have to switch characters for every action you'd need/want on a hunch.

 

 

 

12 is the absolute minimum number of quickslots for DAI as it stands right now, I'd say.

Completely agree.

[Swordfishtrombone]

12 is the absolute minimum number of quickslots for DAI as it stands right now, I'd say.

 

Agreed. Doubling the number of quickslots to 16 would be even better, but less than 12 is definitely too few.

[aaarcher86]

I'd say it only takes more time (and in DAI's specific context, 345 gold for the respec amulet), not more planning.
 
 
The whole system is just wasteful. It would be strategic if the level progression were so that you can only get around 8 abilities by the end of a playthrough and you'd have to carefully decide how to spec your character, but unless the last couple regions and quests suddenly start giving massively diminished experience points, I'll end up the game somewhere around level 28, with enough skill points to spend to easily reach past eight abilities, the last ones I can't use because I have no access to them in live gameplay as I can't even pause during combat and rearrange my quickslot abilities as that menu is locked during fights.
 
It's not strategic, it's plain waste of skill points. The only logical choice with an effective return for you as a player after you reached the quickslot limit is to only spend your earned skill points from level-ups on passive abilities, most of which would only tangibly effect your playstyle via attribute boosts because their passive boni do not interact with your active abilities from other trees.
 
 
Nevermind thinking about the luxury of having companions' abilities on your quickslot so you wont have to switch characters for every action you'd need/want on a hunch.
 
 
 
12 is the absolute minimum number of quickslots for DAI as it stands right now, I'd say.

I've never used a respec amulet. Guess we just play differently.