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[Monica21]

After hardening he's described as learning the art of governance or something to that effect, and doing his best to rule fairly. And he remains a popular king.

[Sandtigress]

I knew it changed depending if he ruled alone or with Anora. Just wasn't sure if the same held true with marrying HNF.

[Thiefy]

Sandtigress wrote...

I knew it changed depending if he ruled alone or with Anora. Just wasn't sure if the same held true with marrying HNF.

If he is unhardened, he runs off and plays often, even if he is married to anora, and defers all choices to her.

if he is hardened he studies like a good boy, and is only seen in a local pub once in a while. if he is married to anora he takes her advice and still defers judgement to her, but out of respect for a kind of master/student relationship, instead of laziness.

[Demx]

I suppose hardening every character is for the best.

[Seymour_North]

Sandtigress wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
If you harden him and invite him to your tent before he asks you, you don't get an official "I love you" (not counting the "See? That's why I love you!") unless you say it to him first at the gates in Denerim.

Remind me not to do that.  That's depressing!

No kidding.

Thanks for reminding me of my least favorite part of the entire Alistair romance, BTW. :-P It's a good thing the rose-and-kiss scene was so delightful, because even with unhardened Alistair, the "I want to spend the night with you" scene really felt cheap. No "I love you" in the preliminaries, even, though I did get the mid-spiel, in-passing one afterwards. I really felt more like Alistair was losing his nerve and wanted to get laid once before he got killed, than like he'd become certain my character was the woman he'd been waiting for and wanted to be with her for as long as she'd put up with him. Is it just that I'm too cynical??
 
But I don't think she ever got a straight-up "I love you" (as opposed to the "you know I love you, don't you?" type of things he'd occasionally drop in passing) from him until the gates at endgame. That was thrilling, it's true! But by then she'd utterly rejected the Dark Ritual and intended to sacrifice herself to save him...so the thrill was followed by a very cold chill as she realized he knew that and didn't mean to let her....

[Thiefy]

Seymour_North wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
If you harden him and invite him to your tent before he asks you, you don't get an official "I love you" (not counting the "See? That's why I love you!") unless you say it to him first at the gates in Denerim.

Remind me not to do that.  That's depressing!

No kidding.

Thanks for reminding me of my least favorite part of the entire Alistair romance, BTW. :-P It's a good thing the rose-and-kiss scene was so delightful, because even with unhardened Alistair, the "I want to spend the night with you" scene really felt cheap. No "I love you" in the preliminaries, even, though I did get the mid-spiel, in-passing one afterwards. I really felt more like Alistair was losing his nerve and wanted to get laid once before he got killed, than like he'd become certain my character was the woman he'd been waiting for and wanted to be with her for as long as she'd put up with him. Is it just that I'm too cynical??
 
But I don't think she ever got a straight-up "I love you" (as opposed to the "you know I love you, don't you?" type of things he'd occasionally drop in passing) from him until the gates at endgame. That was thrilling, it's true! But by then she'd utterly rejected the Dark Ritual and intended to sacrifice herself to save him...so the thrill was followed by a very cold chill as she realized he knew that and didn't mean to let her....

Actually you also get another one regadless if he is hardened or not when you "where is this going?" after Eamons tells you he wants to put Alistair on the throne but before the Landsmeet is finished.

[Addai]

Seymour_North wrote...

Thanks for reminding me of my least favorite part of the entire Alistair romance, BTW. :-P It's a good thing the rose-and-kiss scene was so delightful, because even with unhardened Alistair, the "I want to spend the night with you" scene really felt cheap. No "I love you" in the preliminaries, even, though I did get the mid-spiel, in-passing one afterwards. I really felt more like Alistair was losing his nerve and wanted to get laid once before he got killed, than like he'd become certain my character was the woman he'd been waiting for and wanted to be with her for as long as she'd put up with him. Is it just that I'm too cynical??
 
But I don't think she ever got a straight-up "I love you" (as opposed to the "you know I love you, don't you?" type of things he'd occasionally drop in passing) from him until the gates at endgame. That was thrilling, it's true! But by then she'd utterly rejected the Dark Ritual and intended to sacrifice herself to save him...so the thrill was followed by a very cold chill as she realized he knew that and didn't mean to let her....

I agree, though it's absolutely in character.  He's clueless and has been around mostly men all his life, except for priestesses who have told him that desire is bad.  Much as it drives me crazy, I am glad that the Alistair romance is not as storybookish as it seems on first blush (no pun intended, heh).  While I'm also very glad that the Zevran romance is much deeper than it first appears.  Bad game writers, very bad.  Playing with our expectations like they do. 

[Seymour_North]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Seymour_North wrote...

Thanks for reminding me of my least favorite part of the entire Alistair romance, BTW. :-P It's a good thing the rose-and-kiss scene was so delightful, because even with unhardened Alistair, the "I want to spend the night with you" scene really felt cheap. No "I love you" in the preliminaries, even, though I did get the mid-spiel, in-passing one afterwards. I really felt more like Alistair was losing his nerve and wanted to get laid once before he got killed, than like he'd become certain my character was the woman he'd been waiting for and wanted to be with her for as long as she'd put up with him. Is it just that I'm too cynical??
 
But I don't think she ever got a straight-up "I love you" (as opposed to the "you know I love you, don't you?" type of things he'd occasionally drop in passing) from him until the gates at endgame. That was thrilling, it's true! But by then she'd utterly rejected the Dark Ritual and intended to sacrifice herself to save him...so the thrill was followed by a very cold chill as she realized he knew that and didn't mean to let her....

Actually you also get another one regadless if he is hardened or not when you "where is this going?" after Eamons tells you he wants to put Alistair on the throne but before the Landsmeet is finished.

Did I??? 

My EMF had that conversation, after reviving Eamon, and that was NOT the ultimate message she took away from it. In fact, *he* hardened *her* there...her character really did change, in ways that shaped the whole rest of the game.

The message she got was that he would feel compelled to drop her if he became king, and that he'd absolutely do that if it seemed needed to stop the Blight. That really brought home to her the extent and nature of sacrifices that might come with being a Grey Warden.  It made her stronger (and a much better Warden), but also more fatalistic, especially about their relationship.

He was *never* out of the active party after that--while she could be with him, she would. But because she *expected* to have to give him up, at the Landsmeet she actually set up the marriage to Anora, totally disregarding her own and Alistair's feelings about that...although at the last possible moment she did finally realize it wasn't necessary, that the Wardens would get what they needed and what they wanted if she just crowned Anora solo...disaster averted! Even after that, at Redcliffe she determined on self-sacrifice without thinking through how hard it would be for Alistair (already suffering from survivor's guilt) to stand back and watch her die. It wasn't until their exchange at the gates that she realized that she was in fact as important to him as he was to her. Much too late....

[SurelyForth]

He should say "I love you, you know that right? " Maybe it's just if he's hardened? It's pretty practical as far as "I love you"s go. That was the conversation that made me go..."maybe I should pay attention more to what he's saying then how pretty, pretty his voice sounds." It saved me some trouble in the end.

Also, the PC dying when he isn't king is the only ending that I've gotten that made me truly upset. He and Zevran were both in love with me at the end, and it ruined both of their lives (Zev at least had some direction).

Modifié par SurelyForth, 03 février 2010 - 10:38 .

[Sandtigress]

He will tell you he loves you after Goldanna if you don't harden him - its a very cute, very shy kind of "I.....love you." that I think he purposefully says in a way that you could think friend kind of love or something more. He's always kind of shy that way, flirting but not really sure if you mean it when you flirt back.



The "I love you, you know that right" you can get if you tell him you're not sure the two of you have a future together when you ask where this is headed - you can get it unhardened too. That was actually a really sweet conversation - did this one last night with my HNF right before Landsmeet, just to play with the dialog options. "Maybe what we have doesn't have to lead to children...or marriage. It would be worth it to be with you." Awww, I love his sweetness.

[Thiefy]

Seymour_North wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Seymour_North wrote...

Thanks for reminding me of my least favorite part of the entire Alistair romance, BTW. :-P It's a good thing the rose-and-kiss scene was so delightful, because even with unhardened Alistair, the "I want to spend the night with you" scene really felt cheap. No "I love you" in the preliminaries, even, though I did get the mid-spiel, in-passing one afterwards. I really felt more like Alistair was losing his nerve and wanted to get laid once before he got killed, than like he'd become certain my character was the woman he'd been waiting for and wanted to be with her for as long as she'd put up with him. Is it just that I'm too cynical??
 
But I don't think she ever got a straight-up "I love you" (as opposed to the "you know I love you, don't you?" type of things he'd occasionally drop in passing) from him until the gates at endgame. That was thrilling, it's true! But by then she'd utterly rejected the Dark Ritual and intended to sacrifice herself to save him...so the thrill was followed by a very cold chill as she realized he knew that and didn't mean to let her....

Actually you also get another one regadless if he is hardened or not when you "where is this going?" after Eamons tells you he wants to put Alistair on the throne but before the Landsmeet is finished.

Did I??? 

My EMF had that conversation, after reviving Eamon, and that was NOT the ultimate message she took away from it. In fact, *he* hardened *her* there...her character really did change, in ways that shaped the whole rest of the game.

The message she got was that he would feel compelled to drop her if he became king, and that he'd absolutely do that if it seemed needed to stop the Blight. That really brought home to her the extent and nature of sacrifices that might come with being a Grey Warden.  It made her stronger (and a much better Warden), but also more fatalistic, especially about their relationship.

He was *never* out of the active party after that--while she could be with him, she would. But because she *expected* to have to give him up, at the Landsmeet she actually set up the marriage to Anora, totally disregarding her own and Alistair's feelings about that...although at the last possible moment she did finally realize it wasn't necessary, that the Wardens would get what they needed and what they wanted if she just crowned Anora solo...disaster averted! Even after that, at Redcliffe she determined on self-sacrifice without thinking through how hard it would be for Alistair (already suffering from survivor's guilt) to stand back and watch her die. It wasn't until their exchange at the gates that she realized that she was in fact as important to him as he was to her. Much too late....

The conversation should go something like:
"I don't know where this is going. Arl EAmon wants to make me King. I love you, you know that right? But I have no idea where this will lead us in the future. I'll have to think about that."

To which you can give the typical responses: "Love is all that matter," "We may not have a future", "I don't want to give up" and "I wasn't looking for commitment".

[Sandtigress]

I think the "we may not have a future" option should read more like "Why don't you tell me if we have a future" based on the responses and replies I got from last night. He tells you all the problems but says that maybe the two of you should try anyways, and you can tell him things like "I don't want to just give up". Heh, sometimes, you just have to make dialog into what you want it to be!

[Thiefy]

Sandtigress wrote...

I think the "we may not have a future" option should read more like "Why don't you tell me if we have a future" based on the responses and replies I got from last night. He tells you all the problems but says that maybe the two of you should try anyways, and you can tell him things like "I don't want to just give up". Heh, sometimes, you just have to make dialog into what you want it to be!

I paraphrased it because i dont know the exact words  but yeah, a little imagantion never hurts anyone

[Sandtigress]

Oh, you got the quote right, I meant that from the answers you get back, it doesn't seem like the intuitive dialog option to get those responses. The answers make it feel more like you asked "Why don't you tell me?" instead.

[Seymour_North]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Sandtigress wrote...
I think the "we may not have a future" option should read more like "Why don't you tell me if we have a future" based on the responses and replies I got from last night. He tells you all the problems but says that maybe the two of you should try anyways, and you can tell him things like "I don't want to just give up". Heh, sometimes, you just have to make dialog into what you want it to be!

I paraphrased it because i dont know the exact words  but yeah, a little imagantion never hurts anyone

Except maybe Alistair!

I loaded a saved game so I could figure out how that conversation had really gone. And I think that the piece of it that "hardened" my character wasn't even one she "officially" heard!!

She asked him where things were going, and he made his initial statement about loving her but not knowing what becoming king (if it were best for Ferelden) would mean for them. She could then respond in one of four ways, *none* of which I liked.

What I think happened is that #1, "If we care for each other, that's all that matters," was the response I disliked *least*, so I tried that first. Now, I *meant* it in the sense that she loved him too, and as long as he felt the way he said he did, she'd be OK with giving him some space to think over the whole king thing. (Not a response you're allowed to make, alas.)

But what *he* heard was, "Love is all that matters." So of course (being Alistair) he challenged that: "What about duty? What about honor?" Those were important too, and he wasn't about to promise that they'd never come between him and her. AND he feels so strongly about this that you take a -10 to approval.

Apparently I wasn't accepting that over a misunderstanding, so I must have reloaded and tried again, this time with the line about there maybe not being a future for them. And here's where he tells you about Grey Wardens and infertility, and sort of talks his own hopes/expectations down to "maybe not even anything at all." By this point he sounds pretty depressed, so my character was able to say she didn't want to give up, and he perked back up and they agreed to take things as they came.

But obviously what I *remembered* afterwards was the Duty Trumps Love response. Quintessential Alistair, and  it did make my character a stronger person and a better Warden.

..........................
Oh, blast! I finished this first playthrough in mid-December, and I was so cut up about Alistair's tragic death (and also liked my first character so much!) that I haven't been able to bring myself to play another female character. (I'm about 2/3 through my second playthrough, with a DNM who's as close to the opposite of her as possible...amoral about magic, and dazzled by Morrigan.) Early on I did take a female City Elf through the origin story, and left her at the beginning of Ostagar; I'd thought I'd run her next, but let her residual distrust of human men make her steer clear of Alistair so she could romance Zevran instead. I'd almost forgotten how adorable Alistair is...after this I'm not sure I can do hold CEF to that after all!