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[MerchantGOL]

Mages. It was no brainer. Living in the world with only 3 choices:

- The life in prison with cushions and bullies for a rest of their lives

- Hiding for a rest of their lives with a fear of either being caught up by unchecked sadists or succumbing to demons

- Being robbed of your persona and becoming a living corpse doing anything at will of someone else for a rest of their lives

 

That is something which made me sick since DA:O and a lot of bad things happening in the past were natural outcomes of that regime. Well, I ended up with Cassandra as The Divine, so not much changed for them but at least they have an indepedent school teaching them a proper way how to handle their abilities or circles with loosened control and possibility of not being threatened into a tranquility anymore.

 

Anders even says that Not all circles are as bad as Kirkwalls ,so the blanket "The circles are full of bullies" statement doesn't fly

[TheBlackSwordsman]

I choose mages first,because i kinda favored mages more in all DA games and because freedom!
But both choices are awesome,and choosing templars seems more appealing to me now,it's really nice to meet cole earlier
 "Champions of the Just" now THIS IS a BADASS name for a quest

[Personette]

I allied with the mages first playthrough & still think it's the best choice. 

 

There are a few things where I'm not sure if I'm meant to believe that the gameplay accurately reflects lore, or if I'm supposed to mentally compartmentalize. Like, clearly, in the game, players of every class can kill enemies of every type. Rogues can kill mages. Rogues can kill demons. That makes it hard for me to take the idea that Templars are the ONLY people who can police magical activity very seriously. 

 

Also, has anyone else noticed that the mages in this game who get stuff done are all mages who have rejected the Circle in one way or another? There are some obvious examples, like Solas or Morrigan--apostates. But then there's Wynne, who seems like the perfect Circle mage until you find out that she's possessed. Or Vivienne, who sings the praises of the Circle but used all the power she accumulated in her Circle to get out as early as possible, first as Court Enchanter & then by joining the Inquisition. Dorian grew up in a different system. Anders & Merrill...well. They get stuff done, even if it's not GOOD stuff. 

 

Maybe Circles are, by some margin, the safest solution. It's possible. But if MOST mages are in circles, while the BEST mages have to look elsewhere for knowledge & experience? If the best mages evade the system & its rules? That's pretty damning. 

[MerchantGOL]

What about Amell or human mage inquister, they both come from the circle, they could maybe throw off its influence but they are still circle Mages by educatio.

 

And Vivivenn didn't leave the circle, she is a great example of how to use it to the best.

[Personette]

What about Amell or human mage inquister, they both come from the circle, they could maybe throw off its influence but they are still circle Mages by educatio.

 

And Vivivenn didn't leave the circle, she is a great example of how to use it to the best.

 

Our HoF mage Wardens come from the Circle (because they have no choice) but they leave it to join the Grey Wardens. They get stuff done outside the structure of the Circle & we have explicit confirmation from DA:I that the Hero of Ferelden did not return to the Circle. They left when they got the chance & stayed away.

 

I suppose Vivienne is technically a Circle mage? But she wrangled her way into a job that allowed her to live and work separately from the Circle. She no longer has a Tower association, for example--she says that she spent time in the Montsimmard Tower but I got the impression that she no longer considers herself a member of that community. She left it a long time ago & never looked back. 

 

Vivienne and Wynne are the examples that convince me the most, really. They're the Circle mages that we get to know best, the ones who support the system, but neither is very good at abiding by Circle rules. 

[MerchantGOL]

Our HoF mage Wardens come from the Circle (because they have no choice) but they leave it to join the Grey Wardens. They get stuff done outside the structure of the Circle & we have explicit confirmation from DA:I that the Hero of Ferelden did not return to the Circle. They left when they got the chance & stayed away.

 

I suppose Vivienne is technically a Circle mage? But she wrangled her way into a job that allowed her to live and work separately from the Circle. She no longer has a Tower association, for example--she says that she spent time in the Montsimmard Tower but I got the impression that she no longer considers herself a member of that community. She left it a long time ago & never looked back. 

 

Vivienne and Wynne are the examples that convince me the most, really. They're the Circle mages that we get to know best, the ones who support the system, but neither is very good at abiding by Circle rules. 

 

 

Neither do any thing that violate the Circle rules, Vivieann most of all, remember shed be first enchanter if she could, the circle dosen't say you cant have postions else where, you just have to prove your not a risk before you get those postions

[Personette]

Neither do any thing that violate the Circle rules, Vivieann most of all, remember shed be first enchanter if she could, the circle dosen't say you cant have postions else where, you just have to prove your not a risk before you get those postions

 

Um...last try, before this turns into a repetitive back and forth.

 

1. Wynne is possessed by a spirit for the entire time we know her.

 

2. The player characters shouldn't count. Too many variations. But, in many cases, the player character helps Jowan to steal his phylactory from the Ferelden Circle Tower, so there's at least one rule broken, & who knows how many other examples we don't witness as part of the game. Plus, it seems to me that if the mage HoF's entire adulthood is spent apart from the Circle, that's pretty telling. 

 

3. Vivienne is the most complicated example because she does, indeed, obey the letter of the law... but not the spirit. She insists that mages shouldn't be free, but she works hard to make sure that she, herself, is free to do as she pleases. 

 

I suppose that the counter-argument there is that, "Well, if Vivienne can negotiate an acceptable measure of freedom as a Circle mage, maybe any Circle mage could do the same..." -- but I don't think that's true. Vivienne succeeds because she is utterly ruthless. She sets her sights on a goal & she tramples anything in her way. 

 

In any case, no matter how you look at it, Vivienne's lifestyle is very different from the average Circle mage's. The fundamental rule for most Circle mages is that they remain isolated from the general public--Vivienne lives in a populated urban area. Mages are discouraged from marrying or having children--but Vivienne sets herself up as mistress to a duke, so she gets some version of the lasting, public (she's integrated w/ the duke's family) romantic relationship denied to most of her kind. 

 

It's also worth noting that Vivienne is presented as a gifted mage who, nonetheless, takes a job--Court Enchanter--which doesn't use any of her skills. I think at one point she explains that Court Enchanter usually just light lanterns & do parlor tricks? Why would she make that kind of trade? It's not because she finds life in a Tower so fulfilling. 

[MerchantGOL]

Viv shows that there is freedom with in the circle, Hell make her divine and all circle mages get that same level of freedom.

 

Viv is not the only mage that after showing they were responsible, were not only allowed to leave the circle to work and study else where but start a life.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Viv shows that there is freedom with in the circle, Hell make her divine and all circle mages get that same level of freedom.

 

Viv is not the only mage that after showing they were responsible, were not only allowed to leave the circle to work and study else where but start a life.

I guess you people never read asunder. The circles really were becoming prisons. The mages couldn't leave the towers period. It became illegal for mages to gather in groups, and the mages were locked in their rooms most of the time. Don't forget mage-hater Lambert taking control of the Spire and essentially starting to turn it into another Kirkwall.

[Steelcan]

I guess you people never read asunder. The circles really were becoming prisons. The mages couldn't leave the towers period. It became illegal for mages to gather in groups, and the mages were locked in their rooms most of the time. Don't forget mage-hater Lambert taking control of the Spire and essentially starting to turn it into another Kirkwall.

I mean mages were only burning down towns and exploding chantries, no reason to get all upset

[Boost32]

I guess you people never read asunder. The circles really were becoming prisons. The mages couldn't leave the towers period. It became illegal for mages to gather in groups, and the mages were locked in their rooms most of the time. Don't forget mage-hater Lambert taking control of the Spire and essentially starting to turn it into another Kirkwall.

But its happened after Anders exploded Kirkwall's Chantry and one mage tried to kill the Divine.
And he was making a point about Vivienne being Divine, she gaves mages more freedom and responsabilities. Its not complete freedom like Leliana, but they live better under Vivienne's Circles.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I mean mages were only burning down towns and exploding chantries, no reason to get all upset

One apostate who wasn't even part of the Circle in the first place yet the templars decided to punish all the circle mages despite them not being involved. Guess if it was an ex-templar who blew up the chantry, you'd support imprisoning the templars despite them not being involved.

[Steelcan]

One apostate who wasn't even part of the Circle in the first place yet the templars decided to punish all the circle mages despite them not being involved. Guess if it was an ex-templar who blew up the chantry, you'd support imprisoning the templars despite them not being involved.

and then other circles rose up, then there was one in Rivain that should have been annulled decades ago....

 

also lol@at that second part

[thesuperdarkone2]

But its happened after Anders exploded Kirkwall's Chantry and one mage tried to kill the Divine.
And he was making a point about Vivienne being Divine, she gaves mages more freedom and responsabilities. Its not complete freedom like Leliana, but they live better under Vivienne's Circles.

Her ending outright says that the changes only have power with Vivienne, not the system. Unlike Cass or Leliana who try to change the system, Vivienne's changes only occur so long as she's in charge. Do you really think the freedoms will remain once Vivienne is gone? Also, if you are supporting Vivienne, you aren't doing it to give mages more rights. Vivienne never gives any indications she's going to give mages more rights if she's divine. In fact, her motto is that she's going to restore the status quo with no indication that she was going to change anything. Really, if you wanted to give mages more rights, Cass or Leliana are way better changes.

[dragonflight288]

Mages. After meeting Fiona and Dorian in Redcliff I decided that some power-made Seeker wasn't as big a threat as Tevinter operating openly in Ferelden and wanted to get them out. 

[Steelcan]

Mages. After meeting Fiona and Dorian in Redcliff I decided that some power-made Seeker wasn't as big a threat as Tevinter operating openly in Ferelden and wanted to get them out. 

which I find kind of odd that he is totally toothless if you just ignore him, his plan is entirely dependent on you coming to him

[Boost32]

Her ending outright says that the changes only have power with Vivienne, not the system. Unlike Cass or Leliana who try to change the system, Vivienne's changes only occur so long as she's in charge. Do you really think the freedoms will remain once Vivienne is gone? Also, if you are supporting Vivienne, you aren't doing it to give mages more rights. Vivienne never gives any indications she's going to give mages more rights if she's divine. In fact, her motto is that she's going to restore the status quo with no indication that she was going to change anything. Really, if you wanted to give mages more rights, Cass or Leliana are way better changes.

Her ending outright says they have more freedom and responsabilites even if all power truly lies with her, só the mages have a better life.
And do you think mages will be free when Leliana is gone? Who to say the Chantry will not put them back in the Circles? Its all speculation anyway.
I wanted the status quo back, that Vivienne tretas mages better than before is a plus.