95 réponses à ce sujet

[Maverick827]

Interesting set of opinions here. It sounds like people who don't like the healing changes are not used to any challenge whatsoever in games and see challenge as almost undesirable.

I'm not sure where you're getting that from. The main notion in this thread is that the lack of healing leads to tedious backtracking. I'd also throw my personal observation in that it also leads to shorter, more actiony fights, where there's less time to go through the ups and downs of a major boss battle since potions are limited (whereas heals would not be).

If im not challenged i'm bored. The healing change is honestly my favorite change to the genre. I cant get into rpgs that have endless cheap healing potions on no cooldown.

No on is advocating for that. We want healing spells back, and out-of-comabt healing regen. Or, rather, we wished the game was designed that way from the start, because it's too late now.

Think of potions as your lives. They are forgiveness for your errors in play. Run out of lives and its 'game over' and back to camp. Your punishment is the walk back to where you were to think about what you did wrong. BAD PLAYER! Potions do not replace the traditional heal spells, you're using them wrong. Barrier, guard, and evasion/mitigation abilities DO replace traditional heal spells. You need potions when you failed to use those things properly.

Why? Why are they better than heal spells? The current system pigeon-holes you into specific party compositions much more than the last. One Barrier is not enough for Nightmare, so you need two mages. Guard doesn't scale well at all. Evasion is worthless.

If you're porting back every other fight listen to what the game is telling you. Get better equipment, change your party composition, respec your abilities, check your tactics. Even on hard if you keep your equipment up to date and have a good skill composition you can just auto faceroll most fights. The limited potions is an easy gauge of your parties effectiveness and gives the developers an easy benchmark to tune the encounters.

It's not every fight, but I'm having to backtrack a non-zero amount of times, which is unacceptable in an open-world exploration game.

[Peranor]

Out-of-combat healing regen would be fine for me.

 

But I swear some people in this thread is going out of their way to act dense...

 

As Maverick827 said; The main notion in this thread is that the lack of healing leads to tedious backtracking.

But no! People just have to go in to headless chicken mode screaming "Ermahgerd! You people don't want a challenge" or "You cheaters just want endless cheap healing potions!"

 

But I guess tedious backtracking is such a challenge that it must be kept in the game or it will be to easy... Yeah, no.. IT IS NOT A CHALLENGE TO GO BACK TO CAMP AND REFILL POTIONS AND THEN WALK BACK AGAIN! It is just a tedious time sink and it destroys the pacing of the game.

 

And Out-of-combat health regen does not equal endless potions.

 

Come on people, this is not a MMORPG.

[Prideaux]

Gives every fight more weight.  In the other Dragon Ages I could just afk and my party could handle the fight on nightmare.  It didn't matter if they made mistakes, I'd just heal up and move on.  Now there's much more pressure on being efficient and playing well.  Wasting a barrier feels -bad- now, where before it was just "oh well I'll go make a sandwich and I'll come back to full health"

 

where as now, with a horrible interface, you click a button, bring up a radial menu, fumble for a pot, hit another button, go back to combat and try and remember where you were in the flow of the action... give me healing spells any day. Something that actually makes since in the game world. Not somethign that takes you out of the game world.

[Khevar]

Yeah, no.. IT IS NOT A CHALLENGE TO GO BACK TO CAMP AND REFILL POTIONS AND THEN WALK BACK AGAIN! It is just a tedious time sink and it destroys the pacing of the game.

 

For what it's worth, I very very rarely have to backtrack for potions.  I just push forwards to the next camp.

 

/shrug

 

I think that part of the problem is that the other aspects of gameplay make it harder to live with the limited healing.  If you are an action-RPGer, you're gimped by the poor companion AI that make stupid mistakes.  If you're a tactical-RPGer, you're gimped by the tac cam that is hard to use and doesn't show the battlefield property, resulting in mistakes.

 

If the companion AI and tactical mode worked properly, I believe that most players would have fewer troubles with taking unnecessary damage.

 

I did a NM run on Origins right before Inquisition came out.  With the Advanced Tactics mod I was able to do things like, "Cast fireball only if 5 enemies are clustered together", and "Cast Stonefist if enemy is Frozen" and "Don't use AOEs if enemy is attacking at Short Range" and "Use Dirty Fighting if enemy is Casting a Summon"

 

I rarely had to pause combat or use the tactical view mode, simply because my companions weren't stupid.

[HTTP 404]

most cases, going back to camp would be faster

[XMissWooX]

I don't think the companion AI helps much either.
In DAO, I could enter a map, tell my companions to hold, run to the other side of the map and they'd still be where I left them.
In DAI, I can't even move into the next room without my companions teleporting to my side and running off toward the enemy. Even trying to kite a boss three meters away is a nightmare when nobody seems to understand the meaning of the word "hold".

This all means that the companions get hurt more and you have to waste even more potions on them.

[Katallina]

most cases, going back to camp would be faster

 

That totally depends on how good (or perhaps bad?) one is at getting lost. I don't completely mind going to the camps. It's relocating the areas I am in and want to be in that is a pain for me. Of course, this is a purely personal issue (I'm legally blind) and I am in no way suggesting that an entire game should be designed to cater to my specific needs. I suppose I am just a little frustrated that an installment in a series that I love--and which has gelled well for me as a player--is proving much more difficult than it should. (And again, I realize that in my case I am technically a part of the issue.) 

 

Things that might have resolved PLAYER issues (this does not necessarily help BW as a developer, unfortunately):

 

-- Optional health regen, just as there is optional friendly fire.

 

OR

 

-- Health regen that works (if at all) on a percentile basis determined by the difficulty the player has selected. (The "casual scrubs" get their hands held while the "hardcore elite" get their challenge and entitlement. Heck--give 'em a specialty achievement for putting up with that nonsense--it's not why I (who play on casual--so take the above totally tongue in cheek as intended!) play this game.

 

If BW wants to limit in combat healing that is their call. (Technically everything is, but my point here is that while it frustrates me since I personally like healers, I'm not going to call them out on it. I read the article about why that happened and while it isn't necessarily to my taste, I can see the rationale given and why it is there.) But the lack of being able to at least -choose- whether we are going to get some form of regen between battles, if healing is going to be heavily restricted. (I feel like I'm Mario with three lives, and again, I'm on casual)

 

Quick note: do what you like with the MP aspect--I don't care about that. (I'll leave weighing in one way or another about it to those that do.)

 

But for SP I think that having as wide a variety of options to allow a wide variety of people to play in a fashion they find comfortable as humanly possible is just. smart. business. If I do my playthrough and am, theoretically, able to regen my health between fights on casual--which the majority on this forum would likely never touch--how does it effect someone else's game? (And don't give me that OMG achievements / trophies crap--you can have 'em. I skipped them for easy mode in Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2; so that is a dead horse that has been dealt with before.) 

 

I'm here for story, characters and (as far as the forum goes) to make new friends. Anything that gets in the way of my immersion or which heavily and repeatedly halts my progression is something which I am going to view as an annoyance. 

[skokie29]

Some options for some sort of healing would be nice. 

 

I nominate the following ideas:

 

- Ring of Regen: Slowly regens health while not in combat. This takes up a ring slot and would have a cool down if removed. 

- Aura of health: Mage casts an aura that heals everyone who stands in it. Cannot be used in combat, has a high cool down (5 minutes?) This would work because it requires a skill point to obtain and has a high cool down.

 

The overall consensus, to me at least, is that people would be for some sort of non combat healing option. I think everyone is cool at this point with not healing during combat because of the way the game was designed. But being able to warp to a camp instantly sort of makes people scratch their head. By implementing some sort of non combat healing it would make people go to camp less, mainly because they would return when they need potions, which is the way it should be, IMO.  

[Eledran]

It doesn't give them more weight, it just makes the game more tedious. Since no single fight actually matters outside of the missions and the enemies all respawn, fighting them doesn't matter. The entire point in that instance is exploration. So why should we have to worry about the things that get in the way of our exploration when those things have no meaning and just detract from the experience and annoy us when we have to backtrack?

 Maybe it doesn't matter to you.

 

But many people actually care about making it out of a tough fight with little injury. Because it actually feels like a big achievement on higher difficulties now.

 

I'm playing on nightmare, got my ass handed to me a bunch of times, but I fully stand behind the idea the removal of heal spam. That said, it's a good trick to have when you've screwed yourself in storymissions by using up supply caches too quickly.

[Khevar]

But many people actually care about making it out of a tough fight with little injury. Because it actually feels like a big achievement on higher difficulties now.

 

+1

 

I feel like I've accomplished something when I get to the end of a difficult fight and haven't used a single heal pot.

[Maverick827]

 Maybe it doesn't matter to you.

 

But many people actually care about making it out of a tough fight with little injury. Because it actually feels like a big achievement on higher difficulties now.

 

I'm playing on nightmare, got my ass handed to me a bunch of times, but I fully stand behind the idea the removal of heal spam. That said, it's a good trick to have when you've screwed yourself in storymissions by using up supply caches too quickly.

 

How is heal spam any different than barrier/guard spam?

[Khevar]

How is heal spam any different than barrier/guard spam?

 

I can't speak for Eledran, but here's how I see it as different:

 

1. Barrier has a timer, and is proactive.  You can waste it by casting it too soon (or too late).

2. Heal spells are reactive.  Health goes down, cast it.  Hard to waste unless you heal the wrong person.

 

And once a party members health goes below max, barrier won't fix it.  You can be sloppy, not pay attention and make mistakes but still fix everything with a heal spell.

[StugMuffin]

 Maybe it doesn't matter to you.

 

But many people actually care about making it out of a tough fight with little injury. Because it actually feels like a big achievement on higher difficulties now.

 

I'm playing on nightmare, got my ass handed to me a bunch of times, but I fully stand behind the idea the removal of heal spam. That said, it's a good trick to have when you've screwed yourself in storymissions by using up supply caches too quickly.

 

+1

 

I guess if you grew up with games like minecraft and such you'd feel annoyed at mobs hindering you from uncovering an entire map. That's not the point for me. Exploration is the reward, not the right. I get bored if there aren't enough tough encounters. If anything i'm disappointed that the dungeons i've been in have had 3-4 encounters period. 

 

Maybe we need an innovation in difficulty settings. Instead of just Easy-Normal-Hard-Nightmare we should have dropdowns that ask you to weigh your preferences. what if the game gave you 3 fields for most to least important and you could choose things like Challenge - Exploration - Combat  - Story etc... 

[StugMuffin]

How is heal spam any different than barrier/guard spam?

Because it gives varied pseudo healing mechanics to all classes, thus giving you more room for creativity. It also means you're watching the battle and not health bars, they are all proactive instead of reactive abilities. You could make a 4 warrior party and stack guard, no barrier needed. You could make a 4 rogue party and use traps, parry, cc, stealth and evasion to avoid damage, no tanks or barrier needed.

 

Potions still have the desired effect, as 'forgiveness' in execution of whatever strategy you went for.  

 

Encounters aren't designed to need healing spells because they practically don't exist. 

[Sidney]

Once more for the elitists. This isn't about a challenge. This game isn't hard. It is tedious. Truthfully the more I play it the worse I realize it is. Once you stop trying to play it any other way than the way it wants you to play it becomes easy. The tedium is in the massive HP volume foes have but as long as you can set your warriors to spam war cry and challenge the game is easy. The only real problem is the AI is so dumb that it occasionally get people beat up through sheer force of will.

[Khevar]

Once more for the elitists. This isn't about a challenge. This game isn't hard. It is tedious. Truthfully the more I play it the worse I realize it is. Once you stop trying to play it any other way than the way it wants you to play it becomes easy. The tedium is in the massive HP volume foes have but as long as you can set your warriors to spam war cry and challenge the game is easy. The only real problem is the AI is so dumb that it occasionally get people beat up through sheer force of will.

 

There are plenty of problems with the game.  The AI is poor, the tac cam is unruly, friendly fire without adequate telegraphing is unpleasant, etc.

 

Unlimited potions and heal spells aren't going to fix those problems.

[noctred]

Lots of hyperbole in this thread.

 

If you need to go back to camp after every fight, the problem isn't with the game - sorry to say. I play on nightmare w/ a 1h champ, archer, and two mages, currently at level 15, and the only time I really go back to town is to a) turn in war table missions, b ) sell junk cuz my inventory is full, or c) teleport to another camp that's closer to a quest objective. I can't recall the last time I had to go back to town because I actually ran out of healing and regen potions.

 

Even on nightmare the only real challenges are dragons and other major bosses, though you could say even those are more tedious than difficult.

[Sevitan7]

I liked long cooldowns on potions in DA2, and that seems to me as the best solution. Provide unlimited potions but with significant cooldowns that won't let you spam them like you can now.

 

That way potions become a tactical resource that matters and encounters can be design around it. Right now they are just essentially an instant heal button easily replenished by a loading screen that only gets in the way flow and immersion. A system designed around of "how often" I need to use a potion because I'm low on health seems to me a superior choice to "how many" instant potions I have.

[Khevar]

I liked long cooldowns on potions in DA2, and that seems to me as the best solution. Provide unlimited potions but with significant cooldowns that won't let you spam them like you can now.

 

That way potions become a tactical resource that matters and encounters can be design around it. Right now they are just essentially an instant heal button easily replenished by a loading screen that only gets in the way flow and immersion. A system designed around of "how often" I need to use a potion because I'm low on health seems to me a superior choice to "how many" instant potions I have.

 

I could see that working.  But what would be a good downtime timer?

 

Make the cooldown too short, and it's E-Z mode.  Make the cooldown too long, and the "shlepping back to camp" turns into "waiting for the cooldown to finish before starting the next fight"

[Sevitan7]

Well that would require some guesswork and actual testing. Perhaps the cooldown could be tied down to difficulty, and/or it could up upgradable through the keep etc.

 

I know the waiting between fights could be an issue, but I'm more concerned with balanced combat mechanics that ensure each fight is engaging and requires attention. And non-spammable potions would be a step in the right direction in my opinion.

[Vormaerin]

No regen between fights is actually the point of the system.  Its designed to reward you for good play and to make smaller, less intense fights still matter.  In DAO and DA2, just about every fight was huge.  Swarms in DAO or wave after wave in DA2.  That's because if you can always heal 100% after a fight, every fight has to be something that could wipe the party or its a complete waste of time.

 

A system that is all about stopping damage from happening is entirely different than one that is about restoring damage that has happened.  Guard, Barrier, Crowd Control... all are options for achieving damage prevention.  If you do that, you never use potions or rarely use them.  You move on to the next fight right away.  If you don't do that, you have to use up resources.  This means that smaller fights that aren't really expected to kill you still matter, because they might make you use a potion and that's an actual effect.

 

Yes, you can circumvent the entire system by going back to camp constantly.  But that's a choice you make.  That isn't the intent of the system.  Its boring and tedious because you are choosing to make it so.

 

I don't know. My experience of the game is quite different than what most folks here are posting.  Cassandra was basically immortal on normal.  I crafted an item that gave Dorian guard and he hardly ever used a potion afterwards.  The only person using potions regularly was me.  And that was mostly the regen pots.  And I don't really control my party except to make the ranged characters move back if they end up too close.

[Nathair Nimheil]

Lots of hyperbole in this thread.

Not exactly a shortage of epeen either.

 

When instant, absolutely safe fast travel to "camp" = Instant complete heal + free replenish on healing pots it is ridiculous to argue about whether there should be healing between fights or not. It's already here. (Especially when "camps" are about a ninety second walk apart.) Let's put our 1337 Gamer! egos away. I am playing NM with FF enabled and the current 'tween combat healing method is not an obstacle to play for me. However, I find it tedious and completely immersion breaking. We are constantly reminded, in game, that mages can heal. Obviously someone hanging around back in each and every camp has this skill just, it appears, not anyone actually in our party.  And sure, we can instantly teleport whenever we want and any distance we'd like but only one way. And sure, we can have all the healing potions we want, absolutely free of charge, but we are physically unable of carrying more than two or three of those little bottles with us. (As opposed to, say, suits of heavy plate armour which we can cart around by the score.)

 

So no, I don't think asking devs to take a reconsidering second look at this mechanism is unreasonable.

[Katallina]

Ultimately it boils down to this: DA:I is what it is going to be. There will undoubtedly be DLC. Maybe we'll get an expansion, who knows? But the core design of the game is in place and *I would guess* that core is rather finite. People are going to need to accept it for what it is and enjoy it / make do with it / learn to adapt as best they can. 

 

The intriguing thing, IMO, will be to see how this series will evolve in the future. Will the decisions here end up being viewed as right or wrong? Successful or misguided? A mixed bag? It could even be that nothing is wrong with the system, but rather that the average customer doesn't get it. If that somehow reflects in sales, regardless of how it is viewed otherwise, the gates of change--or at least uncertainty--are wide open. 

 

I have played healers in RPGs and MMOs since childhood. I was the first in my group of friends to go "What?!" when I heard what was going on. But I will say this: having to move away from my comfort zone and normal strategy is requiring me to focus on things that I would otherwise ignore. CC, support abilities, knowing what abilities my party members actually have and how they work, crafting, enchanting, balancing what accessories my characters use... 

 

It was all, without any question whatsoever, way simpler when I could just push a button and heal / when my characters would instantly heal up after a fight. Sometimes I still miss that, since I play mainly for story and tend to want to relax.

 

But I am actually beginning to notice changes in the way that I plan my battles both on the field and when preparing. Sure, I'm on Casual. (And for me that's the right difficulty setting for now--I am legitimately challenged yet still having fun.) But there is definitely a noticeable tension when my characters enter battle. A concern over will they or won't they succeed since their means are not unlimited. Every decision to touch a potion is a BIG decision, rather than a quick flick of the staff to make things better, or a pause to check my phone while health regens. When any single fight goes poorly it has lasting consequences because it likely means that the next battle will be all the harder and yet need to be fought all the better. 

 

I'm frustrated at times, if I'm honest. (See my original post in this thread. My sense of direction, not the healing itself, is the real culprit.) But the sense of tension, urgency, concern and caution all seem to be doing something I initially did not notice. (I was too busy trying to figure out how on earth I was going to play now.) It has actually forged a stronger bond between me and the characters in the party. (Kinda reminds me of how I feel when playing Fire Emblem--if you lose a unit in the game it is permanently dead. You don't want that because they are all unique people, they develop relationships with each other, etc.) 

 

So I'm holding out my final judgement on how I feel overall. If I can beat the game, enjoy it, etc. this way than I think the changes may have been worth it. If I can't for whatever reason (after making sure I understand all of the systems--crafting, character building, etc.) then I will personally be disappointed.

 

I am currently optimistic. The more I learn about aspects of the game that were previously weaknesses for me, the better I seem to be able to handle what it throws at me. 

[Maverick827]

I just ran through the first real big story/dungeon and there were supply caches everywhere.

What's the point of limiting healing if you're just going to offer so many supply caches?  I would have had access to like 40 (or 60, if I had the perk) potions throughout the dungeon.  I would definitely have not cast 40+ heal spells in Origins.

 

This system is a mess.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Because it gives varied pseudo healing mechanics to all classes, thus giving you more room for creativity. It also means you're watching the battle and not health bars, they are all proactive instead of reactive abilities. You could make a 4 warrior party and stack guard, no barrier needed. You could make a 4 rogue party and use traps, parry, cc, stealth and evasion to avoid damage, no tanks or barrier needed.

 

Potions still have the desired effect, as 'forgiveness' in execution of whatever strategy you went for.  

 

Encounters aren't designed to need healing spells because they practically don't exist. 

 

No, it really doesn't. It just means you're utterly screwed without Barrier/Guard. Just look at characters that either don't prioritize or don't have it, like 2H Warriors or DW Rogues.