30 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainPatch]

You've got the dwarves revering their ancestors, so that's not exactly worshiping a god(s).  And the elves sort of revere Mother Nature more than anything else.  And the Qunari have their Qun, which is more than anything just a version of Bushido (Japanese code of honor).  But the humans just have the Maker, who has displaced the pagan pantheons of long gone ages.  So humans at least have the Maker.... or nothing.  Does that sound like any  human situation?  Especially humans that derive from a multitude of cultures.  Cultures that evolved over centuries, going back to the Ancient History of Thedas.  If there is any theological strife, it is between Chantry-approved religion and apostates trying to bring back the "Old Gods".  Given the lengthy history of Thedas, shouldn't there really be at least a half-dozen "major" theologies?

[ORTesc]

Well they kinda lock you in a tower and turn you into a drolling vegetable if you don't agree with the chantry so... there's that.

[KaiserShep]

All things considered, without narrative significance, there isn't much point in modeling a multitude of religions for any given society in a fictional universe. The Chantry is the dominant one because it umbrellas the mage and Templar situation. At best, there could be passing references to a "pagan" faith or a religion in another human-dominated nation that's still active. It's really why the only time we get to see cults is when they're doing something related to the story, or related to some weird phenomenon in a side story.

[Nyaore]

Well they kinda lock you in a tower and turn you into a drolling vegetable if you don't agree with the chantry so... there's that.

Or destroy your country entirely and leave your surviving citizens little better than second class citizens. 

Keep in mind we're only seeing a small part of the actual world. It's like taking a map of only Europe during the height of the Church and wondering why there are no other religions in the world. There are, we just have not seen those countries yet.

[Kanedax]

The Avvar are nature worshippers. The Qunis less a religion than it is philosophy. Think of Buddhism but without Koslun reaching a level of pseudo-divinity. The Elves worship a full pantheon of gods. The only monotheistic religion in Thedas is the Chantry.

Tl;dr: No, DA is not too monotheistic.

[Maiafay]

These are fantasy religions in a fantasy game. I mean, come on.

[herkles]

You've got the dwarves revering their ancestors, so that's not exactly worshiping a god(s).  And the elves sort of revere Mother Nature more than anything else.  And the Qunari have their Qun, which is more than anything just a version of Bushido (Japanese code of honor).  But the humans just have the Maker, who has displaced the pagan pantheons of long gone ages.  So humans at least have the Maker.... or nothing.  Does that sound like any  human situation?  Especially humans that derive from a multitude of cultures.  Cultures that evolved over centuries, going back to the Ancient History of Thedas.  If there is any theological strife, it is between Chantry-approved religion and apostates trying to bring back the "Old Gods".  Given the lengthy history of Thedas, shouldn't there really be at least a half-dozen "major" theologies?

That is not really correct.

 

First lets start with humanity. It is true that humanity mainly follows the maker, all the kingdoms and empires in thedas follow a chantry. There are however 2 chantries. The first is the white or Andrastian chantry, this is what we have seen in the games so far. It is the chantry of every nation but Tevinter. Then there is the Tevinter chantry, or black chantry or Imperial. they disagree on several issues.

 

1.) Magic: tevinter views magic as a gift

2.) andraste: in the south Andraste is a divine figure blessed by the maker. In tevinter she is considered a mage.

3.) gender: in the south it is female dominated. In the north, men often are the ones who have power.

 

Also Nevarra practices Mummification not cremation as most other realms do. They have their own theories and ideas as to why they do this, not all of which line up with the chantry but it is a cultural thing. 

 

Beyond the worship of the maker there are several religions. In the kingdom of Rivain the majority of people are pantheists, believing that the world and their god are one. The kingdom is offically an andrastian kingdom even if the people are not. Unsuprising quite a number convert to the Qun as the Qun tolerates and is accepting of their faith.

 

You do have polytheistic worship as well, from the evil old gods to the Avvar religion. Though the Avvar tend to put more stock into the worship of the Lady of the skies, they do worship a number of other deities too. the group known as the Chasind are also animistic and polytheistic. 

 

Beyond the Humans you have the other races. 

 

The elves do not worship 'mother nature' but they have a pantheon of gods and goddess. Of course most of the old elven lore of Arlathan is lost, but the customs of the modern dalish keep to these deities. Elves raised in the alianages among humans tend to follow the faith of Andraste, though I imagine they look more to the passages of her liberating slaves and guiding people to freedom. 

 

You are pretty close with the Qun and Dwarves though. I would aruge that the qun is more a militant version of Taoism over bushido though. 

 

We do get to encounter quite a bit of Avvar, saddly hostile for the most part. BUt the game is taking place in Orlais and Fereldan. We do get to see the other human faiths, at least we get to see the Avvar though with one exception, they are hostile to us. But for the most part we do not see the other human faiths because we are not in those lands. the Next set of DA games are going to be in the north, Tevinter is the most talked about location. Which means that we should see the differences in faith. 

[Yuoaman]

There is also much of the world unexplored in Dragon Age. Thedas is large, but there are likely other cultures and races across the ocean with their own religious beliefs.

[AceHalberd]

Well, you're mainly is the Chantry dominated world - the Chantry is Christianity, and the Qun is Islam, basically. There are heaps of religious beliefs outside that - the Avvar believe in a pantheon on nature spirits headed by Korth the Mountain Father, you have the Cult of the Sky Mother which is related to the Avvar belief system but seems to be a branch of it (eg. Catholosism vs Orthodoxy), the City Elves revere the ancestors as best they can and use the Vhenadahl as a 'sacred tree' connecting them to their Dalish roots, the Dalish worship a pantheon of beings (and not 'nature' as suggested) consisting of multiple good and bad goods and one neutral god who locked them all away, and then there's the Dwarves who revere the Stone as their 'protector' and 'Mother', and then you have dragon cults like in DA:O (including the one in Haven) who worship dragons as gods, no doubt a branch off the old Tevinter practice of dragon worshipping (eg. The Old Gods). Even within the Chantry there's religious differences, primarily with the Tevinter Imperium that takes a much more lax view on the role of magic in society. So there's actually a LOT of religious stuff outside the monotheism of the Chantry if you look.

[CaptainPatch]

That is not really correct.

 

First lets start with humanity. It is true that humanity mainly follows the maker, all the kingdoms and empires in thedas follow a chantry. There are however 2 chantries. The first is the white or Andrastian chantry, this is what we have seen in the games so far. It is the chantry of every nation but Tevinter. Then there is the Tevinter chantry, or black chantry or Imperial. they disagree on several issues.... [And a bunch more of pertinent info.]

Good analysis.  I had forgotten the Chasind and totally overlooked the Avvar.  But overall, what I was trying to focus on was just the humans.  The dwarves and elves and qunaris are such small remnant populations, it isn't surprising that what remains of each is pretty much monotheistic.  (If you can actually call the dwarvish and qun beliefs "religions".)

 

As I see it, the Chantry is VERY much an equivalent to Christianity.  Right down to the schism between White and Black Chantry = Protestantism and Catholicism.  As such, both branches really should be branding each other as "heretics" and "degenerate" respectively.  Along with that branding should come some Holy Wars to bring the other side into the "proper" fold (or be exterminated).  The Chantry is VERY intolerant of any interpretation that deviates from official Chantry dogma.  Like to put it in current Real Life terms, "Jihad proclaimed by ISIS against infidels and heathens."  On steroids.  Spanish Inquisition -- sort of suggested by this chapter's title, don't you think? -- 24/7/365.  Just look how tightly the Chantry polices magi, just because they might become apostates, simply because the potential exists.  If they can drum up that much animosity towards one class of people (that for the most part are obedient Chantry adherents), I imagine the Chantry leaders would go ballistic towards anyone that dares to speculate on alternative views of theology.  Despite what the Chanters preach, Free Will really is NOT tolerated.  Speak the Chant of Light verbatim, or keep your mouth shut if you know what is good for you.

 

​It just seems to me that given that level of intransigence, there should be some (frequent) skirmishing between Chantry True Believers and some other "heretics".  [Actually, I'm surprised that the Chantry hasn't issued a bounty on Chasind scalps.]

[Han Shot First]

Considering the world of Thedas is very loosely inspired by medieval Europe, the humans being monotheistic makes some sense. By the medieval era monotheistic faiths were more widespread. Europe was dominated by Chistianity whereas Islam had dominion over the Middle East and North Africa. Farther east Buddhism had also spread throughout much of Asia. Christianity is obviously the loose basis for the Chantry, just as Andraste is basically Thedas' Jesus. (right down to do the execution by an Empire based on Rome)

 

I'd expect the cultures to be predominantly polytheistic if the setting had instead been based on ancient Europe for example, instead of the medieval period.

 

As I see it, the Chantry is VERY much an equivalent to Christianity.  Right down to the schism between White and Black Chantry = Protestantism and Catholicism.

 

I believe the White-Black Chantry split is more closely based on the Catholic and Orthodox schism, particularly as the Tevinters seem to be very loosely based on the Byzantine Empire.

[herkles]

Good analysis.  I had forgotten the Chasind and totally overlooked the Avvar.  But overall, what I was trying to focus on was just the humans.  The dwarves and elves and qunaris are such small remnant populations, it isn't surprising that what remains of each is pretty much monotheistic.  (If you can actually call the dwarvish and qun beliefs "religions".)

 

As I see it, the Chantry is VERY much an equivalent to Christianity.  Right down to the schism between White and Black Chantry = Protestantism and Catholicism.  As such, both branches really should be branding each other as "heretics" and "degenerate" respectively.  Along with that branding should come some Holy Wars to bring the other side into the "proper" fold (or be exterminated).  The Chantry is VERY intolerant of any interpretation that deviates from official Chantry dogma.  Like to put it in current Real Life terms, "Jihad proclaimed by ISIS against infidels and heathens."  On steroids.  Spanish Inquisition -- sort of suggested by this chapter's title, don't you think? -- 24/7/365.  Just look how tightly the Chantry polices magi, just because they might become apostates, simply because the potential exists.  If they can drum up that much animosity towards one class of people (that for the most part are obedient Chantry adherents), I imagine the Chantry leaders would go ballistic towards anyone that dares to speculate on alternative views of theology.  Despite what the Chanters preach, Free Will really is NOT tolerated.  Speak the Chant of Light verbatim, or keep your mouth shut if you know what is good for you.

 

​It just seems to me that given that level of intransigence, there should be some (frequent) skirmishing between Chantry True Believers and some other "heretics".  [Actually, I'm surprised that the Chantry hasn't issued a bounty on Chasind scalps.]

 

Well the black and white divine is more of a orthodox vs catholic thing, due to the fact that Tevinter is based on the Byzantine Era of Rome. Anyways, this conflict already happened in the past of thedas. there were four Exalted marches against Tevinter. these marches lasted from 4:40 black to 5:10 exalted or a period of 70 years. This was also five hundred years ago. It is old history. The current year is 9:41 Dragon. Also two years after the last exalted march in tevinter, the fourth blight occured in 5:12 and lasted til 5:24 Exalted. Blights have a tendenciy to bring counries together, due to you know destruction of the world and all.

 

Following that in steel age around 6:32 steel the Qunari showed up and began the Qunari wars that lasted till 7:84 storm. Here is the important fact, Tevinter and the south worked together to fight the Qunari. 

[Shahadem]

You've got the dwarves revering their ancestors, so that's not exactly worshiping a god(s).  And the elves sort of revere Mother Nature more than anything else.  And the Qunari have their Qun, which is more than anything just a version of Bushido (Japanese code of honor).  But the humans just have the Maker, who has displaced the pagan pantheons of long gone ages.  So humans at least have the Maker.... or nothing.  Does that sound like any  human situation?  Especially humans that derive from a multitude of cultures.  Cultures that evolved over centuries, going back to the Ancient History of Thedas.  If there is any theological strife, it is between Chantry-approved religion and apostates trying to bring back the "Old Gods".  Given the lengthy history of Thedas, shouldn't there really be at least a half-dozen "major" theologies?

 

 The Qun is actually the imaginary society described by Socrates that was necessary to create in order to identify what justice is.

[Daerog]

This is a single continent, with some major islands to the north.

 

No, it is not surprising that there is a dominant faith in a single continent.

 

However, not all believe in it. Some humans join the Qun, some just don't care to believe in anything supernatural besides the Fade and spirits, some are members of tribes that stick with old religions (Avvar are shown in Inquisition some more).

 

So far, I am really enjoying the focus on one faith in DA:I so far. Allows more exploration of it and actually having a character be really devout and such.

 

Although, I am hoping for culture DLC or something in the future. Like a dlc that focuses on someone growing up in the Qun, an Avvar dlc, a Tevinter dlc, etc. Kind of like Leliana's song, where it is a stand alone dlc. I don't think it'll happen, but I would support it.

[HK-90210]

Nope, Just monotheistic enough. Polytheism is boring and waaaaaaaaaay overdone in fantasy settings.

[CaptainPatch]

Following that in steel age around 6:32 steel the Qunari showed up and began the Qunari wars that lasted till 7:84 storm. Here is the important fact, Tevinter and the south worked together to fight the Qunari. 

If it is explained that Black and White Chantries are modeled after Roman Catholicism (West) and Christian Orthodoxy (East), then it would follow that the Qun is modeled after Islam.  Islamic Jihads had unified/swallowed the Middle East and North Africa.  The appearance of the qunari in Thedas is much like the Muslim invasion of Spain (711).  Once they secured the Iberian peninsula, it took centuries for the Christian kingdoms to pry them out again (1492).  Eventually you get the two distinct branches of Christianity united in common cause during the Crusades (starting in 1096).

[staindgrey]

OP, dismissing the elves as "sort of revering Mother Nature more than anything else" is a poor way of making this argument. The elves are split among even themselves over their old gods (which Merrill explains more in-depth in DAII), their self-important history declaring themselves as the original, perfect people, once immortal and ruined by exposure to humanity, and the elves lost to the Qun, Chantry and atheism. Humanity essentially falls under two different umbrellas of the Chantry, or old Tevinter cults (Dumat comes to mind), or their own specific separatist movements such as the Cult of Andraste.

 

You also have to take into account that creating lore is different than the actual events of the real world. Simplifying complex parts of history like religion make it easier to digest, and keeping other parts vague allows elaboration in future games. To my knowledge, the Black Chantry wasn't established in DA:O (I could be mistaken), and we've learned much more about Tevinter religion in DA:I than ever before. Each game has progressively expanded on elven lore. And considering that the primary conflict in both DAII and DA:I involves the Chantry, from a storytelling perspective, you really shouldn't distract the player with a bunch of other unrelated religions. Hence the Chantry split to make it simpler.

[Ailith Tycane]

Monotheistic compared to what? Real life? How many civilizations and/or groups of people are polytheistic now a days do you reckon? Not a lot.

[Ieldra]

I find the way religion and religions are portrayed in DA exceptionally convincing, compared with other fantasy settings. That there is a dominant faith is not at all implausible, and that it's monotheistic is intentional since it was intended to be similar to Christianity in how it functions as a religion. There are several other mythologies and there is the Qun, so Thedas doesn't lack alternatives, it just happens Andrastianism is dominant among humans. As long as the story doesn't go out of its way to make it better than the alternatives, or of being non-religious, I'm perfectly fine with the way things are.

[Credit2team]

other religions that the chantry:
-the qun
-dalish gods
-demon cults
- the "stone" and paragons


also a great number of characters are agnostic atheist. Morigan is a prime example. If you listen to her party banter with Liliana in DA:O you'll see what I mean.

[herkles]

Although, I am hoping for culture DLC or something in the future. Like a dlc that focuses on someone growing up in the Qun, an Avvar dlc, a Tevinter dlc, etc. Kind of like Leliana's song, where it is a stand alone dlc. I don't think it'll happen, but I would support it.

I don't want a tevinter DLC, I want the next game focused on the Imperium

 

 

I find the way religion and religions are portrayed in DA exceptionally convincing, compared with other fantasy settings. That there is a dominant faith is not at all implausible, and that it's monotheistic is intentional since it was intended to be similar to Christianity in how it functions as a religion. There are several other mythologies and there is the Qun, so Thedas doesn't lack alternatives, it just happens Andrastianism is dominant among humans. As long as the story doesn't go out of its way to make it better than the alternatives, or of being non-religious, I'm perfectly fine with the way things are.

 

 One of the biggest thing I like about dragon age is how the religions are focused on the faith and how it interconnects with the people's lives. Most games tend to focus on the mythologies and the stories of the religion, not the faith, not the religion.

 

 

If it is explained that Black and White Chantries are modeled after Roman Catholicism (West) and Christian Orthodoxy (East), then it would follow that the Qun is modeled after Islam.  Islamic Jihads had unified/swallowed the Middle East and North Africa.  The appearance of the qunari in Thedas is much like the Muslim invasion of Spain (711).  Once they secured the Iberian peninsula, it took centuries for the Christian kingdoms to pry them out again (1492).  Eventually you get the two distinct branches of Christianity united in common cause during the Crusades (starting in 1096).

 

 

In some ways yes and in other ways no. The qun play a role similar to Islam in the middle ages. They are more advance, have various different people under there banner, and their role in Rivain is rather similar to the role in Iberia.  However their beliefs and practices are much more akin to eastern religions, notably Taoism IMO. 

[CaptainPatch]

Monotheistic compared to what? Real life? How many civilizations and/or groups of people are polytheistic now a days do you reckon? Not a lot.

Here's a partial list of current day polytheistic religions:  Shinto, Voodoo, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Wicca, Jadoo, Cargo cults, Asatru, Santeria, Yoruba.  There are others of smaller scale pantheistic religions, but collectively they account for nearly two billion of Earth's  seven billion people.  Comparatively, they are nowhere near the majority, but 2/7ths isn't precisely insignificant.  And if you add in atheists and agnostics, the alternative percentage is even greater.