196 réponses à ce sujet

[Uriel]

Tevinter put people throughout the mages and convinced enough of them, along with Fiona, to do it. It wasn't Fiona alone, though it was ultimately her decision to try to join. She had support.

 

There may have been divisive opinions but from all I've seen, not loud and substantial disagreement. At the time, they allowed Fiona to do what they considered should be done. They chose.

It is Fiona alone who decides to ally with Tevinter whereas the majority of mages you talk to don't agree. So yes, she betrayed their trust.

 

Then, I don't think neither side is evil nor good, you can choose who you prefer.

 

If Leliana becomes Divine (ending spoiler) : 

Spoiler

she destroys the Circles, mages are free and create some kind of academy, and it seems that they are now accepted by people. And this is what I always wanted for them, so I'm all for Divine Victoria.

[SwobyJ]

It is Fiona alone who decides to ally with Tevinter whereas the majority of mages you talk to don't agree. So yes, she betrayed their trust.

 

Then, I don't think neither side is evil nor good, you can choose who you prefer.

 

If Leliana becomes Divine (ending spoiler) : 

Spoiler

she destroys the Circles, mages are free and create some kind of academy, and it seems that they are now accepted by people. And this is what I always wanted for them, so I'm all for Divine Victoria.

 

1)Fiona herself (unless you consider her lying) speaks of there being multiple supporters, that Tevinter spread whispers around the rebel mages quickly. She decides, but she does it with support. If she had no support then I'd totally admit that, but what I've seen says otherwise. It may be primarily her fault, but one can understand her situation enough to get what she was trying to do.

 

2)I didn't say either was good or evil. I totally agree that you choose who you prefer. However, I do think the narrative has a degree of bias. I don't think this is a bad thing. It just creates a varied interaction with the players' personal biases.

Example: Narrative in DAO goes that the Circle Tower can be saved and remaining mages spared. Thus Templar concerns are ultimately unnecessary. Yet one is allowed to be on the Templar side even as the narrative is more biased towards Mages. They're given enough reason to be, to choose that choice of Templar, but we know they don't need to do it.

In DAI its the first time I can think that its rather equal on both sides in the narrative. Fiona may have even called the Tevinters, but others could have fought against that and overruled her. But they didn't. They were tired and losing and while Tevinter wasn't their idea and it isn't something they support, as a faction they allowed it.

 

3)Yes I'm most for that ending outcome for the mages. I'm not so sure about other aspects of the larger outcome, but for mages I'm all for that. I may end up going with

Spoiler

Cassandra

instead though, we'll see..

[LegendaryBlade]

1)Fiona herself (unless you consider her lying) speaks of there being multiple supporters, that Tevinter spread whispers around the rebel mages quickly. She decides, but she does it with support. If she had no support then I'd totally admit that, but what I've seen says otherwise. It may be primarily her fault, but one can understand her situation enough to get what she was trying to do.

 

2)I didn't say either was good or evil. I totally agree that you choose who you prefer. However, I do think the narrative has a degree of bias. I don't think this is a bad thing. It just creates a varied interaction with the players' personal biases.

Example: Narrative in DAO goes that the Circle Tower can be saved and remaining mages spared. Thus Templar concerns are ultimately unnecessary. Yet one is allowed to be on the Templar side even as the narrative is more biased towards Mages. They're given enough reason to be, to choose that choice of Templar, but we know they don't need to do it.

In DAI its the first time I can think that its rather equal on both sides in the narrative. Fiona may have even called the Tevinters, but others could have fought against that and overruled her. But they didn't. They were tired and losing and while Tevinter wasn't their idea and it isn't something they support, as a faction they allowed it.

 

3)Yes I'm most for that ending outcome for the mages. I'm not so sure about other aspects of the larger outcome, but for mages I'm all for that. I may end up going with

Spoiler

Cassandra

instead though, we'll see..

The best option imho is to not support either of them, in which case Vivianne becomes Divine. She does re-instate the circles but she gives mages more freedom and makes the Circles in to a place Mages actually want to be, instead of prisons. The only downside is all the people calling blasphemy over there being a mage Divine.

[ChiPsiUp]

What happens if

Spoiler

Cassandra

becomes Divine? The videos of epilogues I've seen all seem show the Leliana one. 

 

Also, can you mix and match? If you side with the templars, but make Leliana the divine, what happens? Does she still disband the circle? Is there even a circle left to disband since the mages following Fiona end up dead if you go the templar route? 

[Master Race]

Even as a Mage i love choosing the Templars and disbanding the order, making them loyal elite soldiers for the Inquisition.

[SwobyJ]

The best option imho is to not support either of them, in which case Vivianne becomes Divine. She does re-instate the circles but she gives mages more freedom and makes the Circles in to a place Mages actually want to be, instead of prisons. The only downside is all the people calling blasphemy over there being a mage Divine.

 

I don't mind that option, but I have personal preference for mages to mingle with non-mages, but just to do it in a way that implies partnership with each other more than ever before, not subservience. I'm even justtt pro-Templar enoughhhh to actually envision a Thedas where Mages and Templars individually work together as they live in the wider world - the Templars empowered enough to strike down any threats to both of them, and the Mage allowed to study magic enough to find solutions faster to things than otherwise.

 

Its more risky business but it sounds great to me. It requires understanding on both sides though, and thankfully DAI implies some level of that happening.

[SwobyJ]

Even as a Mage i love choosing the Templars and disbanding the order, making them loyal elite soldiers for the Inquisition.

 

LOL yeah I kinda want to do that (all parts exactly).

[Apo]

If I side with the templars, what happens to the mages ? (and the other way)

 

Does it influence who will become Divine ?

[karushna5]

Since this is spoiler section... You can be pro mage or Templar with either choice. After doing the quests(which are very different and pretty awesome) you decide to make them serve you or have them as allies.

 

So do Templar quest and leash them and your pro mage people are happy! Make them your allies and the pro templar people are happy! But the ones you didn't do are taken over by the baddie and make up their army. Siding with a side but conscripting them is kinda the moderate option. I feel the Templars are needed to control hostile magic but they need to be prevented from growing out of control, disband them and make them serve you. Feel mages should be free, but still need some restraint make them "prisoners" (they are still just consripted)

 

Also choose on who is easier to fight.Mage bosses for me are so much easier than Templar bosses.

 

really the choice is who works with you and who you fight against, but the second one (conscript or not) is what determines if you are pro mage or templar. Finally, you get a companion a little sooner for each quest. Dorian is a gay mage with a sarcastic wit and a pariah to his people, Cole is a kind spirit/demon duel weild rogue who wants to help people (and if you do Templars he really saves you in a cool way.)

[ghostz82]

Fiona was tricked and overpowered by magic into serving the tevinter magister she didn't choose to do so of her own free will as you can quickly see she is under some sort of spell when you meet her and she invites you and tells you that she never saw or invited you even after she did and had done so. Your even explained this in the storyline by the son and Dorian so either you completely skipped a lot of the dialogue or didn't wasn't paying attention to what was going on period.

Also for your information Vivienne is worst choice for divine as she is selfish and a snake and only joined the inquistion to gain power and honestly is not ideal person to be divine considering the great life she always lead at court due to who she surrounded herself with or slept with depending on how you look at it and is not best candidate go decide on whether or not Mages should be free since in her case she always was pretty much free already. She only used the circle for selfish reasons and pretty much stood always at the top of the circles ranks and didn't do so for what's best for everyone including her fellow Mages.

Her POV is selfish as you easily find this out through dialogue with her and others who know or have known her, she's even described as a poisonous snake who's using the inquistion as a way to gain power for herself in certain in game dialogue. Always being at the top of the circles ranks and at court meant she never suffered or saw what the circles truly can be like for other mages and is the type of person who obviously could care less as long as her life and rank in the circle is fine and secured and she knows without the circle she wouldn't be that person anymore and just be like anyone else and no longer as important as she is in the circles ranks and she will do anything not to lose the power and security. That's what it's about for her not what's best for all mages and people but only what's best for her and to maintain that security and status among the circle and court that she worked hard to get.

[hexaligned]

Going Templar adds more to the story (imo), it also has the harder/more rewarding encounters.  I remember the mage path having a few really good purple items, but that might variance, I know there is some randomization of loot in the game.

[Ashagar]

What happens if

Spoiler

Cassandra

becomes Divine? The videos of epilogues I've seen all seem show the Leliana one. 

 

Also, can you mix and match? If you side with the templars, but make Leliana the divine, what happens? Does she still disband the circle? Is there even a circle left to disband since the mages following Fiona end up dead if you go the templar route? 

 

She's a reformer instead of return to the status quo like Vivienne but not burn everything down and start over with a side order murder everyone who disagrees with you like Leiliana. 

 

She recreates Templars and circles but reforms them to prevent the abuses of the past and recreates the seekers purified and better than they were before which is the best ending in my view given all three organizations existed for good reason but were in need of massive need of reform.

[herkles]

fiona actually did not ally with tevinter, she joined them. not as allies but that after their indutured servitude the mages who were fighting for freedom now would have all the rights and powers of a Laetern, including being a slave owner. You wold think the freedom fighters would not like that, or that fiona who was a slave, wouldn't like that.

 

but hey now I can abuse people after all my time in the circle, once we win this war for tevinter, then I can have my very own slave! Fight for the mages, fight to have slaves! fight to make the Imperium strong!

 

 

templars get ser barris and his awesome war table missions.

[AsheraII]

What I really wanted though, was conscript the mages and allow them to prove themselves to earn their freedom along the way. This was suggested early on while making the choice. Oh, and I wanted Fiona replaced upon conscription as well.

Well, neither seems to have worked out that way. Got stuck with Fiona (who still never had anything interesting to say anyway), and for some rediculous reason, Vivienne became Divine >.<

 

The templar vs mages decision is odd though. It seems we're basically making a choice between all the templars in Thedas verses only a rather minor segment of the mages. Not all mages are part of Fiona's group in Redcliffe. Others openly rebelled, there have also always been the rogue mages (who are less organized than the rebels, so I see them as a seperate faction), and many more simply went into hiding, waiting for the storm to blow over and then figure out where they might fit in.

 

 

Since I want to abolish the circles and free the mages, it doesn't make sense to help the Templars. The Templars would be obsolete without the circles anyway.

But simply setting Fiona's little group free after they gave themselves away to the Tevinter doesn't make sense either. Other groups of mages I'd probably just set free right away. But not Fiona's Idiots.

[Rifneno]

Yep, the biggest justification of going Templar in DA2 is that there's just too much damn blood magic and that if the Templars just let go (they'd be better to loosen grip, but still), then it would almost certainly turn into a mini-Tevinter, if not worse due to Kirkwall strangeness.

It's a documented fact that Kirkwall has a tissue paper thin Veil and even beyond that, some malevolent force (theorized by the Wardens to be Corypheus slumbering in his prison) has long driven the people mad and caused countless atrocities. The place is pretty much designed to drive people murderously insane, and mages particularly so due to the barely-existing Veil.

The Chantry decided to take the most depressing, awful, and soulcrushing part of the city and lock up all the mages there, then give them a bunch of rapists and torturers as guards. Thus, every crazy abomination in Kirkwall is on the Chantry's head. Quentin butchering mama Hawke? Orsino going harvester? Random blood mage gangs? All of it, ALL of it is on the Chantry. It is not "partly" their fault, it is ALL their fault.

[herkles]

The Chantry decided to take the most depressing, awful, and soulcrushing part of the city and lock up all the mages there, then give them a bunch of rapists and torturers as guards. Thus, every crazy abomination in Kirkwall is on the Chantry's head. Quentin butchering mama Hawke? Orsino going harvester? Random blood mage gangs? All of it, ALL of it is on the Chantry. It is not "partly" their fault, it is ALL their fault.

ah the classic lets exonerate the serial killer mage for what he did and blame it on someone else, that the mage zealots love. It isn't that Quient killed people, that wasn't his fault, NEVER HIS FAULT. his victims, ie hawke, should be bombing chantries for revenge not going after him, because it was not his fault that he killed people but the chantry.

[Rifneno]

ah the classic lets exonerate the serial killer mage for what he did and blame it on someone else, that the mage zealots love. It isn't that Quient killed people, that wasn't his fault, NEVER HIS FAULT. his victims, ie hawke, should be bombing chantries for revenge not going after him, because it was not his fault that he killed people but the chantry.

I can't explain it any simpler than I already have. Templar supporters and Sera fans will just have to deal.

[herkles]

I can't explain it any simpler than I already have. Templar supporters and Sera fans will just have to deal.

So quentin bears no fault or responsibility for what he did.

[Rifneno]

So quentin bears no fault or responsibility for what he did.

Did I stutter?

The guy lost his marbles because the Chantry locked him up in a place that makes mages lose their marbles. This isn't complicated. Sorry, I'm not from Texas and I don't adore the "shoot first and think never" outlook. When something like this happens, someone needs to ask "why." And the why is very clear: because the Chantry did something unspeakably irresponsible.

[herkles]

Did I stutter?

The guy lost his marbles because the Chantry locked him up in a place that makes mages lose their marbles. This isn't complicated. Sorry, I'm not from Texas and I don't adore the "shoot first and think never" outlook. When something like this happens, someone needs to ask "why." And the why is very clear: because the Chantry did something unspeakably irresponsible.

So if a mage becomes a serial killer he is innocent of well serial killing.

Never a mages fault never can't have them taking responsibility for their actions

[rigron]

It doesn´t really matter. It doesn´t change really anything and don´t have any real consequence for you as the player and both quest are great. I personally prefer the Mages mission, I think it is one of the most interesting quest of the game and from my point of view siding with Mages is the right thing to do in order to bring more justice to DA´s world.

 

I look at it this way; in DA: I both the Mages and Templars are being assholes. The difference is Mages are willingly choosing assholishness by siding with the Tervinters where as, you find out, the Templars are being manipulated with red lyrium and a demon dampening their ability to think things through. Once you've free'd the Templars, they are amniable and willingly side with you as they are at their full senses. With the mages, even after siding with you, you will always have the knowledge that they willingly sided with the Tervinter empire and, in dialogue, one of them even defends blood magic.

 

Plus, when you get marched on later. If the templars are marching on you it's due to mind control; if the mages do it means they are willingly attacking the Herald in the name of Tervinter.

 

LOL

 

No

 

The Templars are willingly choosing assholishness by willingly consuming red lyrium, willingly choosing to server Corypheus as long as he provides them with more red lyrium and willingly killing anyone inside their own order who choose to not consume red lyrium. Then there is a demon serving the real templar´s leader, a man who willingly tries to destroy everything related with the Templar Order and the Seekers too. And this all started due to the Templars willingly killing Mages for fun, due to have a bad day and for a lot of other unjustified reasons for centuries.

 

Mages on the other hand were declared culprits of the attack on the Chantry without proof by almost everyone and had to submit to Tevinter in order to be saved of their secure death, including innocent mages, weak mages and childrens. If you went to see Fiona in Red Cliff and then played the Mages side mission you should know what happened, but of course you didn´t or you wouldn´t be speaking that nonsense.

[Barquiel]

I think "In Hushed Whispers" is the better mission and I always wanted to to abolish the circles anyway -> Mages for me

[Rifneno]

So if a mage becomes a serial killer he is innocent of well serial killing.

Never a mages fault never can't have them taking responsibility for their actions

He's not guilty by reason of insanity. How is this hard to understand? The man was nuts.

An analogy. Anybody remember Jeffrey Dahlmer? Guy up in Wisconsin, back in the 90's. He was completely nuts. Kidnapped and ate a bunch of people. When they caught him and diagnosed him, they gave him the proper meds and he got his marbles back. Was absolutely horrified at what he did, pretty much wanted to die (and soon did). It's sort of like that. Except in this case, someone (the Chantry) willfully and malevolently caused the insanity. Both Quentin and Quentin's victims are entirely on the head of the Chantry for locking him up in the Gallows.

Fortunately, Kirkwall had a spirit of justice to see to it that justice was done.

Plenty of mages are responsible for their actions. Fiona, for example, deserves whatever happens to her. However anyone the Chantry locked in The Gallows is a victim, plain and simple.

I notice you only cry and whine about responsibility rather than actually offering a counterargument.

[Zwingtanz]

I think "In Hushed Whispers" is the better mission and I always wanted to to abolish the circles anyway -> Mages for me

This, it has by far the more interesting turn of events. And no annoying time-limited quests.

[Ashagar]

He's not guilty by reason of insanity. How is this hard to understand? The man was nuts.

An analogy. Anybody remember Jeffrey Dahlmer? Guy up in Wisconsin, back in the 90's. He was completely nuts. Kidnapped and ate a bunch of people. When they caught him and diagnosed him, they gave him the proper meds and he got his marbles back. Was absolutely horrified at what he did, pretty much wanted to die (and soon did). It's sort of like that. Except in this case, someone (the Chantry) willfully and malevolently caused the insanity. Both Quentin and Quentin's victims are entirely on the head of the Chantry for locking him up in the Gallows.

Fortunately, Kirkwall had a spirit of justice to see to it that justice was done.

Plenty of mages are responsible for their actions. Fiona, for example, deserves whatever happens to her. However anyone the Chantry locked in The Gallows is a victim, plain and simple.

I notice you only cry and whine about responsibility rather than actually offering a counterargument.

 

No Krikwall had a spirit of vengeance not justice which is why hundreds of innocent people were murdered by it and Anders and I suspect that Quentin was quite insane long before he was put in the gallows nor does that cover the other mages not in the circle like the blood mage who killed Hawke's mother as well as many others who wasn't even from Kirkwall but Cumberland. In any cause evil is insane by its very nature that doesn't mean evil people are any less guilty.

 

 The chantry is also not responsible or knowing that Corypheus designed the city to deliberately weaken the vale or that one of the four forbidden ones were running around.