196 réponses à ce sujet

[AdreanKael]

 I find it difficult not to side with the mages in either 2 or Inquisition. The simple fact that the right of annulment exists shows how corrupt both the Chantry and the templars are. Sure magic has the potential to be dangerous (so does science, so should we kill all the scientists just because someone invented the nuclear bomb? No of course not.), but does that give them the right to decide who lives and dies based on what a few mages have done? The templars are a corrupt organization that has (in all 3 games) shown a desire to wipe out all mages regardless of guilt or the lack thereof. In most cases only a few templars have shown any regard to a mages life. The fact that they put any mage THEY deem a threat, regardless if that mage is a blood mage or not, through the right of tranquility (which there has been a cure for for hundreds of years but they kept quiet about), shows just exactly how much respect they have for any mage. Sure in many cases the temptation to use blood magic has overwhelmed many mages but with the continued oppression of the mages by the chantry and the templars it was only a matter of time before they broke out in rebellion. Give anyone a loaded gun and apply enough pressure and they WILL use that gun if they deem it their only way out.

 

 As a role playing standpoint I understand that many people would not have access to some of that information, but since it's been going on for so many years I find it hard to believe that anyone who was not a self centered individual would not know SOME of the facts given the world state in DAI. 

 

 But so far through 4 completed games I have sided with the templars once and the mages 3 times. The templar story line is interesting but the mage story line is better IMHO. The decision does have an impact on the game, although somewhat less dramatic then one would think. So for me its more of a moral choice then an aesthetic one. 

[themageguy]

Templar wartable missions have been great especially with Ser Barris.

Sending Templars to rescue mages, sending a Knight enchanter to infiltrate the venatori..
been great.

[TheJediSaint]

Really, they're both well done.  So either way you're going to have a good time.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

*snip*

It's a documented fact that Kirkwall has a tissue paper thin Veil and even beyond that, some malevolent force (theorized by the Wardens to be Corypheus slumbering in his prison) has long driven the people mad and caused countless atrocities. The place is pretty much designed to drive people murderously insane, and mages particularly so due to the barely-existing Veil.

The Chantry decided to take the most depressing, awful, and soulcrushing part of the city and lock up all the mages there, then give them a bunch of rapists and torturers as guards. Thus, every crazy abomination in Kirkwall is on the Chantry's head. Quentin butchering mama Hawke? Orsino going harvester? Random blood mage gangs? All of it, ALL of it is on the Chantry. It is not "partly" their fault, it is ALL their fault.

 

Is the "WROOOONG!!!" pic referring to what you quoted, or is it a preface to your analysis?

 

The whole point of the Circle is to contain the damage of magic gone awry. Apart from the one thing you got right in your post (poor choice of location and overseers for the Kirkwall Circle), keeping (most of) the mages in one place is much, much more logical to do than let them walk freely where we know the 'Veil to be dangerously thin. And your statement that Quentin and other random blood-mages are the Chantry's fault is wrong. It's just plainly wrong. Quentin was a Starkhaven mage, not one from the Kirkwall Circle. He did not have to fear the Templars dragging him to it, either, since Orsino was keeping him hidden. There is evidence that the death of his wife drove him mad. There is 0 evidence that the Templars/Circle had any hand in his madness. Not a shred of it.

 

And Tahrone? Again, that one operated completely outside of the Chantry and was driven solely by her own ambition. If you think putting her in the Circle is a crime, then you clearly have no concept of public security.

[wiredrawn]

should i choose templar or mage? anyone know the difference? or is there any information which side is better?

 

you can choose this on the wartable and if you had, you cant go back ...

 

 

 

thanks!

 

In helping the Templars you get the opportunity during the initial quest to gain permanent stats. +1

At the end of the initial templar quest you fight a demon who drops a nice assortment of rune mats. +1

Fighting the mage boss during the attack on Haven is much easier. +1

Corypheus's second in command is open to discussion, and can outright walk away from the battle. +1

 

In helping the mages you get .. -10

 

My first play-through I sided with the mages because I'm usually a mage first play-through but ultimately it doesn't really matter, and you have to pick one so, go with the rewarding one.

[Elfyoth]

I look at it this way; in DA: I both the Mages and Templars are being assholes. The difference is Mages are willingly choosing assholishness by siding with the Tervinters where as, you find out, the Templars are being manipulated with red lyrium and a demon dampening their ability to think things through. Once you've free'd the Templars, they are amniable and willingly side with you as they are at their full senses. With the mages, even after siding with you, you will always have the knowledge that they willingly sided with the Tervinter empire and, in dialogue, one of them even defends blood magic.

 

Plus, when you get marched on later. If the templars are marching on you it's due to mind control; if the mages do it means they are willingly attacking the Herald in the name of Tervinter.

The mages are being manipulated as well, by tevinter inflitratiors 

[Vicious]

Templar. Calpernia is pretty cool, except for the fact she works for Corypheus she could easily be an antihero and future companion. She buys slaves and immediately frees them (she prefers literate ones since they can probably take care of themselves afterwards) and if the slaves are mistreated she gets very violent very quickly. Despite being a former slave and basically the complete opposite of Dorian she loves Tevinter and wants to see it restored and changed.

 

She believes Corypheus on his promises to make Tevinter a better place and when/if you proove her otherwise she immediately turns against him. 

 

 

Samson's motivations are pure derp in comparison.

[Bigdoser]

Really? I find Samson's motivations in tune with the faith theme of the game. 

[songsmith2003]

I prefer the templars since you discover that many of them were deceived to or forced to drink the red lyrium: they didn't all do so willingly. Ser Berris (Barris?) also gives you a great example (along with Cullen, Alastair and that guy you meet in Lothering) of what a decent templar can be. There should be more decent templars we have as examples. I blame the developers who clearly wanted players to feel one side over the other in prior games. I know I always sided with mages before now.

 

I'm also quite a bit miffed at the Redcliff mages for what happened to the tranquil. They kicked them out, failed to protect them and possibly aided in their slaughter to create the occularum. They (and the entire village of Redcliff) sat on their butts and allowed the war to rage without raising so much as a hand. I know Redcliff went through a lot in DAO, but this is exactly why they should help people. Where would Redciff be if the Warden and crew had thumbed their noses and said, "Oh, well. Sucks to be you"?

 

I think the story would have been better served if the player could experience both sides and if there were more side quests you actually get to experience with mages and templars both rebelling against the status quo.

[Bleachrude]

We are bringing up Quentin?

 

Why? Not once are we given the impression her death had anything to do with the templars/Chantry...hell, given the lack of "revenge plotline" which would have been the normal response (see Anders or Zathrain), I always assumed her death was natural causes....

 

Furthermore, keep in mind, Quentin was messed up BEFORE he even reached Kirkwall, remember the templar had been hunting him or a while....I always assumed that the storyline was not only another "kick Hawke when their down" but also an example a la Connor in Redcliffe. That magic is dangerous to everyone even if only one person is directly affected by the situation

 

If Quentin or Connor were non-mages, what exactly would they have been able to do?

[Fireheart]

One thing that really disappointed me in the game is that you couldn't side with both. I really wanted both groups to be able to come to some kind of understanding and end the war amicably, but instead the game forces you to choose one, then the other become minions of Corypheus. You don't really "end" the war, you just save one side from Corypheus while the other gets the short end of the stick, and gets effectively wiped out during the attack on Haven and in battles on the maps afterwards, making the side you chose win the war by default.

 

I chose the mages. Because all of DAO and even DA2 where the mages betrayed me, I stood by them, and I was not about to back down from my stance in DAI. In dao I was a city elf, and elves have a history of slavery, while the mages are taken from their families very young and then locked in the tower for the rest of their lives, under the control of the Chantry and templars, never seeing daylight. In a way, it was similar to slavery, in that they have no freedom, so of course I helped them.

 

I don't see what was so wrong with the mages allying with Tevinter. As Fiona said, they were losing the war, so they desperately needed help. What was bad, is that Alexius was working for Corypheus, so Fiona and her rebels effectively became involved in the subjugation of Thedas to a false/wannabe god. If it was just any random Tevinter magister, I don't think it would be looked at so harshly. The mages also didn't really do anything, as far as I know. So, they allied with Tevinter... so what? I don't think it ever stated what the implications of the alliance were. Wasn't Alexius just providing more mages in the war efforts or something? You meet Alexius in the tavern, then go to the Chantry to meet Dorian, then go to Redcliffe Castle and get sent into the future, then come back to the past. Getting mad at Fiona for her stupidity is much more understandable if you side with the Templars. The templars are turning into abominations, and following the orders of a demon impersonating their leader. You fight a whole bunch of Templars then get sent into the Fade, and meet Cole and the Envy Demon and find out it's behind all of this. 

 

Okay, so now you sided with the Templars, and the mages come to attack you at Haven. They do this willingly. The mages aren't under mind control, they are 100% attacking you for reasons Idek. So hating Fiona makes sense here. However if you side with the Mages, it makes more sense to be attacked by the Templars, because they've all been brainwashed by the Red Lyrium, and anyone who resisted was killed. Again, as far as I remember (i didn't really pay attention to the Templar storyline), a lot willingly took the red lyrium, while some were force fed. I still think taking a strange substance to boost your strength was a lot worse than allying with a foreign country to save you and your people.

[Raiil]

Both? Neither? I'm kind of bummed out that there isn't a third templar/mage option- I'd have happily taken it even if it reduced my power as the Inquisitor.

 

I chose mages because overall I'm mildly more sympathetic with them, but really- mages and templars were both terribly treated by the Chantry.

[thesuperdarkone2]

 

 

Okay, so now you sided with the Templars, and the mages come to attack you at Haven. They do this willingly. The mages aren't under mind control, they are 100% attacking you for reasons Idek. So hating Fiona makes sense here. However if you side with the Mages, it makes more sense to be attacked by the Templars, because they've all been brainwashed by the Red Lyrium, and anyone who resisted was killed. Again, as far as I remember (i didn't really pay attention to the Templar storyline), a lot willingly took the red lyrium, while some were force fed. I still think taking a strange substance to boost your strength was a lot worse than allying with a foreign country to save you and your people.

No, they don't. There is way more evidence to support them being brainwashed than there is to suggest they did it willingly. Heck, the guide outright says they are brainwashed multiple times. Also, if the Red Templars are brainwashed, explain why we can recruit Denam as a member of the Inquisition? Only someone looking for any pathetic reason to hate mages would still believe the mages are willingly helping Corypheus given that there is ZERO evidence supporting them not being brainwashed. If they are, mind giving evidence that they are willingly aiding Corypheus?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

No, they don't. There is way more evidence to support them being brainwashed than there is to suggest they did it willingly. Heck, the guide outright says they are brainwashed multiple times. 

 

Evidence please, do you finally have the codex or tweet from a DA writer confirming it?

 

 

 

Also, if the Red Templars are brainwashed, explain why we can recruit Denam as a member of the Inquisition? 

 

Judging from Bartrand, Meredith, Samson, Denam and notes found by red templars. It is clear that red lyrium affects a character's mind and sanity, but that its corrupting effects seemingly depends on the amount and type of exposure plus the character's strenght of will and natural resistance to the substance (Samson had seemingly devolped one IIRC). Judging by Varric's comment it seems that ingesting red lyrium is far worse than simply being physically close to it.

 

Some like Batrand went crazy immediatly by simply holding red lyrium for a brief moment, others like Meredith could hold for a few years before the exposure drove them off the deep end. Denam was acting like a madman at Therinfall when he was under the effect of red lyrium and is far more lucid when you judge him were he presumably has been off it for a while (the inquisitor has dialog that can point this out).

 

Denam was one of the evil officers who willingly followed Envy in his conspiracy, but is seemingly still not too far gone in the stage of red lyrium corruption (as evident by the fact that he is not a crystal monster like most other red templars you find at Therinfall). That is why you can recruit him if you fail to find the note on the knight-divine's corpse IIRC.

 

The majority of red templars were tricked into consuming the red lyrium which in turn brainwashed them, a few like Denam however, willingly let themselves be corrupted by it. The actions of the latter are inexcusable and many of them seem to originate from the officer corps that survived the conclave. 

 

"edit"

[Boost32]

No, they don't. There is way more evidence to support them being brainwashed than there is to suggest they did it willingly. Heck, the guide outright says they are brainwashed multiple times. Also, if the Red Templars are brainwashed, explain why we can recruit Denam as a member of the Inquisition? Only someone looking for any pathetic reason to hate mages would still believe the mages are willingly helping Corypheus given that there is ZERO evidence supporting them not being brainwashed. If they are, mind giving evidence that they are willingly aiding Corypheus?

Lets not have this discussion again, there ZERO evidence of the, being brainwashed.
And conscripting Denam is bad, he betrays you, sentdyour soldiers to a trap and flee.

Dorian says the one who didnt fled from Redcliff either were killed or joined the Venatori. If they were going to brainwash every mage, why they killed the ones who refused to join and let the ones who agreed to join live?

[Boost32]

The majority of red templars were tricked into consuming the red lyrium which in turn brainwashed them, a few like Denam however, willingly let themselves be corrupted by it. The actions of the latter are inexcusable and many of them seem to originate from the officer corps that survived the conclave.

I think they werent sent to the Conclave, the ones there seems to be the ones who would opposition the use of Red Lyrium and the moderates ones. Those were sent to die there, the Red Templars knew Corypheus would be there and while the explosion was accidental, I dont think Corypheus would allow anyone to leave the Conclave alive.
This would leave a lot of templars leaderless, they would look up to the superiors who survived and would be sent to Therinfal to be corrupted.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Lets not have this discussion again, there ZERO evidence of the, being brainwashed.
And conscripting Denam is bad, he betrays you, sentdyour soldiers to a trap and flee.

Dorian says the one who didnt fled from Redcliff either were killed or joined the Venatori. If they were going to brainwash every mage, why they killed the ones who refused to join and let the ones who agreed to join live?

Then explain what kind of ritual the Venatori are perfoming on the rebel mages in Leliana's version of the Invesitgate Redcliffe Castle mission, explain Dorians' comment that the Venatori would ensure that the rebel mages would never willingly leave them, explain the guide mentioning the mages being brainwashed multiple times. Also, you have shown ZERO proof that the mages aren't brainwashed apart from your unsupported assumptions, but considering the templar side is simply full of assumptions, I shouldn't be surprised that you people are unwilling to accept something that directly contradicts your illconceived prejudices. Guess it will take a dev outright telling you people to finally end this idiotic belief. I swear, you people are just making stuff up just to find any excuse to hate the mage side. Pathetic.

 

Also, that comment was about rebel mages who tried to escape either successfully escaping or being killed after failing to escape? Have you considered that the rebel mages might have been too scared to escape?

[Gervaise]

So far I've done making the mages my allies, conscripting the Templars and am currently working through mages as conscripts.

 

My thoughts are that if you go to Redcliffe and talk to mages like Connor, then you feel bad about simply abandoning them to their fool leader, Fiona.   She is not under any sort of spell.   The reason she is confused is because Alexius turned back time so she has never actually met you before.   The bottom line here is that having been given the most defensible castle in Ferelden for their refuge by the monarch himself, when Fiona and other senior figures feel threatened, instead of digging in and waiting to the monarch to come and deal with any rogue Templar army on their doorstep, they throw themselves into the arms of Tevinter as indentured servants.   To all intents and purposes that means slaves of Tevinter, even if it is for a set time period.   Not only that but this is not simply handing themselves over to be transported north, this is joining a hostile force within Ferelden.    This is a massive betrayal of the monarch and the people of his country, who have offered them sanctuary.

 

Unfortunately, you are given no opportunity to judge Fiona, either as allies or conscripts.    This seems wrong to me, particularly as conscripts.    They are described as prisoners of war, which I feel is fair enough considering who they were working for.   It seems only sensible to take this course considering we don't know for certain if we have rooted out all the Venatori from their ranks, until the crisis is over.  However, I felt I should at least have been able to allow the other mages to judge Fiona, which is what I did with the surviving Templar officer on my conscripted Templar run.      Having Fiona still as leader of the mages is something that should have been optional; may be get them to have a vote between her and Vivienne with a scene with them both making their case for it and you being able to offer your support either way (that would have been fun).     I have yet to reach the end with my conscripted mages run but was really disappointed with my allied mages run that Fiona seemed to have learnt nothing from the past few years and promptly starts causing trouble again, even though Cassandra seemed to be trying to push through reforms.

 

I prefer the Templar run because I find the Calpurnia plot more interesting than Sampson, I get to kill Fiona and places like Crestwood have no red lyrium sprouting out of the ground, so presumably there is better hope for stopping the spread of red lyrium.

 

I prefer the Mages run because I get to save the innocent mages from Fiona's stupidity, I get to save Alexius from himself and I don't abandon the good Templars to a fate worse than death.

[Delphine]

I sided with mages twice (as free allies), and sided with templar once (conscripted) for the sake of doing their quest.

I honestly LOVED both quests, they're different, but so interesting and have their own flaws and qualities.

On a RP side of things, playing as a mage in my canon run, I will almost always side with mages. They're the oppressed part, forever have been, even though they made a stupid decision over despair (reminds me of someone else I love very much, oh well), I can't let them down.

FREE THE MAAAAGES!

[Boost32]

Then explain what kind of ritual the Venatori are perfoming on the rebel mages in Leliana's version of the Invesitgate Redcliffe Castle mission, explain Dorians' comment that the Venatori would ensure that the rebel mages would never willingly leave them, explain the guide mentioning the mages being brainwashed multiple times. Also, you have shown ZERO proof that the mages aren't brainwashed apart from your unsupported assumptions, but considering the templar side is simply full of assumptions, I shouldn't be surprised that you people are unwilling to accept something that directly contradicts your illconceived prejudices. Guess it will take a dev outright telling you people to finally end this idiotic belief. I swear, you people are just making stuff up just to find any excuse to hate the mage side. Pathetic.
 
Also, that comment was about rebel mages who tried to escape either successfully escaping or being killed after failing to escape? Have you considered that the rebel mages might have been too scared to escape?

You are right on this, its just a assumption, but at least I admit it. The brainwash thing has no proof either.

And the exactly quote of Dorian is:
Dorian: There is that. The ones who didn't join the Venatori either ran off or were killed.

And now I will ask the same question again, if they are brainwashed, why the ones who didnt want to join were killed? This time try to answer my question

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Here is what I ended up doing.

 

1) Play as a rogue so you will have no real stake in the war or in Dragon Age games for the matter. I mean we have only had one main villainous character who is a rogue:- Arl Rendon Howe. There rest of the main villains are either mages or warriors. 

 

2) For Inquisition, either conscript the mages or ally with the Templars. 

[Raiil]

 

 

Unfortunately, you are given no opportunity to judge Fiona

 

This bothers me, even though I allied with her. No, I don't pin the blame entirely on Fiona, she was emotionally manipulated. But she still made a horrendous judgment call and I don't think she needs to be leading, well, anything.

 

She makes a decent figurehead for a while, but nothing else.

[wepeel_]

So far I've done making the mages my allies, conscripting the Templars and am currently working through mages as conscripts.

 

My thoughts are that if you go to Redcliffe and talk to mages like Connor, then you feel bad about simply abandoning them to their fool leader, Fiona.   She is not under any sort of spell.   The reason she is confused is because Alexius turned back time so she has never actually met you before.   The bottom line here is that having been given the most defensible castle in Ferelden for their refuge by the monarch himself, when Fiona and other senior figures feel threatened, instead of digging in and waiting to the monarch to come and deal with any rogue Templar army on their doorstep, they throw themselves into the arms of Tevinter as indentured servants.

 

The way I see it, this is very much connected to Alexius's time magic. Being able to twist time with no one else around you remembering what events are about to unfold will give you a tremendous advantage in swaying people and events in your favour. It's a lot like saving and loading a game, redoing things until things play out the way you need them to.