Hushed whispers gets dealt with anyway with alistairs forces, and alexius gets killed off because the inquisitor no shows his time trap
I think the Venatori just jukes Ferelden's forces entirely (and leaves Redcliffe alone for some reason).
Which is nice for the Ferelden monarch, because I honestly think they would lose.
Mages, man. 
Templars are insufferable Dudley Do-Right squares who end up getting progressively fucked with every new installment (much to my delight). Cory's army being mainly composed of red templars is the perfect culmination to these inept junky thugs' great misadventure of a career.
Also, no matter how much its detractors doth protest too much, In Hushed Whispers is actually thematically and narratively relevant to the main story. It's powerful and visceral and shows what WILL happen (as opposed to what one single entity hopes might happen, in that other quest. Speaking of...). Champions of the Just comes off too much like some wacky optional side quest that can't even be justified as it's presented without prior meta player knowledge. It's in itself well-written, but just overall superfluous to the main story, unworthy of the critical path. Also, lol templars really are lame... Independent templars doubly so. Only quitting the order or eating the red stuff can make them interesting and/or remotely threatening. You've got your Vietnam Vet metaphor in my pseudo-paladin! You've got your pseudo-paladin in my Vietnam Vet metaphor! Good times.
"But wah, time traveling is arbitrarily always bad because something something tropes and Fiona offends me!"
K, homey. ![=]](https://lvlt.forum.bioware.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sideways.png)
... It looks to me like you're using two different measuring sticks here for Templars and mages, or am I reading you wrong? For me this reads like: Templars (probably) had doubts but didn't act on them fast enough = not their fault vs Fiona (probably) had doubts but didn't act on them fast enough = her fault? At the very least, Fiona was a victim of betrayal (Venatori in the ranks) and circumstance (Templars at the gates) at least as much as the Templars.
Also, when demon-Lucius comes to VR, he tells the people there the Templars "failed no-one then they left the Chantry to purge the mages" (yes, that ad verbatim what he says - and let's not beat around the bush here: he's talking about genocide) after one of his mooks punches a priest in the face while he doesn't bat an eyelash - and even after this Templars (including Barris) follow him to Therinfal Redoubt. That kinda balances the scale quite heavily in favour of the mages for me. Not saying there are not decent people kicking around in the Templar order - or that they wouldn't have eventually come to their senses - but if I have to choose between these two groups, I'd rather choose the group whose leader made a bad decision out of desperate need to save her people over a group who didn't leave although they absolutely could have (and possibly were offered an option to leave, if you choose the "Templars! Join as Cullen did!" -dialogue option) without any immediate repercussions (although the lyrium withdrawal is a pretty major thing - ugh, Chantry sucks) - mages never really had that option without risking either their freedom and/or their lives.
Also, story-wise I think IHW is more urgent IMO - Redcliffe is closer to the Inquisition's base of operations than Therinfal is, and having Redcliffe fall under enemy control is Very Not Good (as Leliana points out) - not to mention the whole time magic thing. In contrast, we have "something weird is going on in that way direction - maybe" doesn't feel so urgent / time-critical to me at that point in the game. And when it comes to gameplay differences, different strokes for different folks. I am in general not a big fan of Fade (although I really liked the Fade-portion of Here Lies the Abyss) so CotJ doesn't exactly endear itself to me, although I really liked the first introduction with the advisers. But the rest of it... just not something I enjoy, particularly since I have to trudge through most of it all in my lonesome. Plus, I thought that even though I usually loathe time travel storylines, having the Envy demon outright show you its plans in the Fade felt even more ridiculous. It's like the ultimate Villainous Plan Reveal Monologue - at least in IHW people know about Cory's plans because that's what happened. But again, I guess that's a matter of taste which not-all-that-great plot devices you like most / dislike least.
Not different measuring sticks, just judging them based on their different circumstances. Fiona had no obligation to Tevinter, and she knew she was getting into a bad situation. "Evil" Tevinter, 10 years of slavery for the promise of full citizenship afterward. This was after Alexius transgressed against Teagan and angered Ferelden. The templars on the other hand were sworn to follow their leaders. And like I said, they were corrupted from the top down. But Fiona was the top of her group. The alternative to Lucius for the templars was an organization that was branded heretical by the Chantry. And the templars needed notoriety. The alternative for the mages was an organization that had already taken in mages and was established separate from the Chantry. And the mages needed safe haven. Ha, haven. Get it? The sales pitch writes itself. So Fiona had every reason to go with the Inquisition and ditch Tevinter. The templars still needed reasons to go with the Inquisition and ditch Lucius and the other commanders.
Lucius is talking about genocide against an army of mages that were blamed for blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry, rebelling against the order of the Circles to have free reign of the countryside, and I think the conclave was blamed on them as well. Some of those mages were also hostile, even if the main group of the rebellion distanced themselves from them.
The donkey punch to the poor old Chantry mother was harsh, and Barris was disturbed by it, but Lucius talked his way out of it by talking up the templar order. It's also possible he spun this to say that it was a templar (who I swear is Denam based on the voice) who decided to punch the mother, but Lucius stood by the action of the templar because he supports his fellows just that much. But even after reaching Therinfal, Barris confirms that the templars thought that was a shameful display, that they had been asked to accept much since then, and that many templars questioned why they were there when the Breach was the obvious threat. I suspect Lucius convinced them that the world would turn to the templars as their saviors once the threat of the Breach became to much to ignore. At that point they would be able to demand recognition, independence, and respect for all the sacrifices templars have to make in order to keep the world safe. But by the time they came to their senses, it was too late. Too many would have been corrupted by the red lyrium.
The mages' freedom was already risked when Fiona made the 10 year slavery deal.
Leliana does point that out, but Josephine also points out that Arl Teagan had gone to Denerim to get military support from the crown. Which means the problem in Redcliffe would have resolved itself. There are many pros to getting the templars, and many cons to going after the mages, which I won't go through now, but I think templars are the best option in all cases except for very specific circumstances, all of which are based on what kind of character you play.
Time magic might seem like the more pressing matter on its face, but if you examine the illogic of confronting it head-on, I think it will prove that CotJ is the best course of action in... again, all cases except those of specific circumstance. Theoretically, if Alexius controls time itself, then there is nothing you can do to stop him. Any attempt you make will just be countered by time magic. Which means Alexius already knows what you are going to do to stop him (he knows you know its a trap and have snuck scouts into the castle with Dorian's help), but from your perspective you haven't tried it yet. Thus the best course of action is to avoid the trap entirely and let Ferelden's crown risk its soldiers against the time wizard. In the meantime, you fortify your own defenses to be on the lookout for Alexius, since he might try to attack you while you go to Therinfal. Having an impenetrable defense is all you can do in that case. Alexius can try to attack you, fail, and then have maybe one more shot at attacking you again if he goes back in time. Though chances are he would rather take that time to avoid a killing blow from Ferelden's crown and escape with all the mages to the north (which is exactly what he ends up doing).
As for the envy demon vs. the bad future, I think the envy demon's approach is the better storyline device actually. Well, halfway anyhow. It is cool to learn about the demon army and Celene's assassination from the bad future. However, there are quite a few things you should learn about from the bad future as well, such as the Elder One's name, or the fact he has a dragon that many think is an archdemon, or that the templars at Therinfal will be turned into red templars, or that Haven will be attacked. Varric should have been able to recognize Corypheus on sight. Solas also should have been able to tell you, looking at this in retrospect. But none of that is revealed to you, when logically it should have been.
With the envy demon, I think it was awesome to have the plan of taking your face and commanding a demon army shown to you in order to gauge your reactions to it so the demon can better copy you. It was a mix of feelings for me. On the one hand it was a startling and horrifying scheme, yet I also didn't want to give the demon any reactions to copy. And this makes sense because Envy thought it had you and that there was no way you would be able to break free from it. Plus, Envy wasn't all that smart. Now, the part where you just walk into a room with a murder knife embedded in a bust of Celene? That was kind of lame, but I see why BioWare had to do it that way.
I've always gone with the mages.
Practically, recruiting the Templars makes no sense. There is no evidence that they have the ability to effect the Breach in anyway, and the entire idea is pure speculation on Cullen's part. Even Cassandra, who as a Seeker would be just as familiar with the abilities of the Templars as Cullen, seems to doubt the idea. Whereas with the mages, they are merely amplifying the power of a magic that has already proven to be effective. Increasing the power of the mark is a risk, but there is at least a reasonable degree of certainty that it'll work.
Beyond that, the Templars are bigots who believe they have a divine right to oppress and abuse mages because magic is 'evil'. Even moderate Templars think that sentencing mages to life imprisonment in a tower is a reasonable idea. The mages were entirely justified in their rebellion, and even Fiona's decision to side with Tevinter was understandable considering the circumstances. The Conclave had been destroyed, the Breach was spewing out demons, and the people of Thedas were already beginning to blame the mages for the entire thing. It was only a matter of time before they lost the protection of Ferelden and were tossed to the Templars to either be slaughtered or locked back up in their Circles. Compared to that, indenturing themselves to Tevinter for a decade before gaining full citizenship in a society where mages are allowed to live freely was an obvious choice.
I like the mages more but only because I have played the previous games. If I was fresh and had no knowledge about DA world and only had the information in DAI to go on about I would not be so quick to decide. Templars for all their grievances were a product of both the chantry and the mages. Chantry was trying to make them into obedient guard-dogs while mages hated them even if the templars themselves were not the reason for their suffering. As I see it the Chantry was more responsible for the whole thing than mages or templars. But as in every real world situation pretty much all sides of the conflict are at fault.
Not different measuring sticks, just judging them based on their different circumstances. Fiona had no obligation to Tevinter, and she knew she was getting into a bad situation. "Evil" Tevinter, 10 years of slavery for the promise of full citizenship afterward. This was after Alexius transgressed against Teagan and angered Ferelden. The templars on the other hand were sworn to follow their leaders. And like I said, they were corrupted from the top down. But Fiona was the top of her group. The alternative to Lucius for the templars was an organization that was branded heretical by the Chantry. And the templars needed notoriety. The alternative for the mages was an organization that had already taken in mages and was established separate from the Chantry. And the mages needed safe haven. Ha, haven. Get it? The sales pitch writes itself. So Fiona had every reason to go with the Inquisition and ditch Tevinter. The templars still needed reasons to go with the Inquisition and ditch Lucius and the other commanders.
As an unofficial leader of the rebel mages, Fiona was obligated to keep them safe. As far as Fiona (and the other mages) knew, the Templars were preparing for yet another attack, the hope for peace had died, and she and her people were pretty much helpless in face of the whole thing. (She was also the leader of her people, like you yourself point out in your post, so "corrupt from the top down" applies here as well, just saying.) Any port in the storm - Corypheus and the Venatori knew this. The Templars didn't face extermination. The mages did, and Fiona was very well aware of it. I don't know about you, but if I was in charge of hundreds of people - children included - I'd rather make a deal of 10 years of servitude over almost-certain death. And after that Fiona really didn't have the means to go back on her word to join the Inquisition instead.
Lucius is talking about genocide against an army of mages that were blamed for blowing up the Kirkwall Chantry, rebelling against the order of the Circles to have free reign of the countryside, and I think the conclave was blamed on them as well. Some of those mages were also hostile, even if the main group of the rebellion distanced themselves from them.
Ummm... 1) Kirkwall Chantry was blown up by one apostate mage (who did not belong to the Kirkwall Circle - which was nevertheless Annulled because, hey, why not? They're all just mages and dangerous); 2) the Circles rebelled because the Chantry and the Templars abused their power (in Kirkwall, Harrowed mages were being made Tranquil, which is against the Chanty law; people like Cole were quite literally left to rot and were swept under the carpet) - I wouldn't call that order; 3) Then he's just plain wrong. Fiona also thinks that it were the Templars who killed the Divine - shouldn't that be just as good an excuse not to side with the Templars? Also, Hinterlands at least had no shortage of hostile Templars.
Also, I don't recall him making any distinction between the mages he wants to kill and the mages he doesn't want to kill...
The donkey punch to the poor old Chantry mother was harsh, and Barris was disturbed by it, but Lucius talked his way out of it by talking up the templar order. It's also possible he spun this to say that it was a templar (who I swear is Denam based on the voice) who decided to punch the mother, but Lucius stood by the action of the templar because he supports his fellows just that much. But even after reaching Therinfal, Barris confirms that the templars thought that was a shameful display, that they had been asked to accept much since then, and that many templars questioned why they were there when the Breach was the obvious threat. I suspect Lucius convinced them that the world would turn to the templars as their saviors once the threat of the Breach became to much to ignore. At that point they would be able to demand recognition, independence, and respect for all the sacrifices templars have to make in order to keep the world safe. But by the time they came to their senses, it was too late. Too many would have been corrupted by the red lyrium.
So, in effect, Lucius promised Templars that the world would finally give their Glorious Order the Respect and Adulation they deserved and were Unjustly Denied... after talking about exterminating all the mages and punching a priest. I mean, when you first go into VR to talk with the Chantry mothers, the lay people are there to root for the Templars! Lucius basically tells the Templars that their oath to serve and protect the Chantry and the regular people is just BS and that the Templars should just join him in his juvenile whining for moooar power and fame for doing their duty - after quite clearly refusing to do just that. And the Templars listen to him and are willing to join him! That really doesn't make me hold the Templars in any higher regard. It would be easier for me to sympathize with the Templars if Cory/Sampson had just corrupted the Lyrium they were taking, but their decision to follow a leader like Lucius absolutely, 100 % willingly without their freedom and/or lives being at stake really sours them for me.
Fiona and the rebel mages are betrayers of the host guest relationship which is one of the worse possible crimes one could possibly commit in a non-modern setting, up there with rape, premeditated murder, Kin-slaying and treason. They are also unrepentant murderers of any mages that don't agree with them including your own mentor if your a human mage, if your a mage that doesn't agree with them they will kill you to free you. its the entire reason why there is a loyalist faction that consists of not just loyalist fraternity mages but the isolationists and other small fraternities. There is also of course how some how managed to not notice the shack of skulls in red-cliff and what happened to the tranquil.
I'd also note the Templar order were effectively decapitated at the conclave when most of their leadership blew up and at least the one known surviving templar leader who survived the conclave, the Knight-vigilant, was pointedly murdered because he was a threat to Corypheus's and Lucian's plans for the order because like other senior templars he would have spotted the envy demon for what it was, which was the same reason the seekers were lured away to their deaths. So you have a military order that's effectively had its leadership wiped out then fake Lucian and Samson and cronies come in and make their movies of gathering together and corrupting the Templar while using their authority as the only surviving leadership to deflect questions.
The templar line is better after the first mission, In Hushed Whispers vs Champions of the Just will come down to personal taste
I sided with Templars only once . For the most part I prefer to side with the Mages. I would just save before you enter the war room
then you have a save to go back to if you don't like the choice you selected the first time. Its mostly just player preference thing storywise anyway.
I don't think either is better or worse. 
As an unofficial leader of the rebel mages, Fiona was obligated to keep them safe. As far as Fiona (and the other mages) knew, the Templars were preparing for yet another attack, the hope for peace had died, and she and her people were pretty much helpless in face of the whole thing. (She was also the leader of her people, like you yourself point out in your post, so "corrupt from the top down" applies here as well, just saying.) Any port in the storm - Corypheus and the Venatori knew this. The Templars didn't face extermination. The mages did, and Fiona was very well aware of it. I don't know about you, but if I was in charge of hundreds of people - children included - I'd rather make a deal of 10 years of servitude over almost-certain death. And after that Fiona really didn't have the means to go back on her word to join the Inquisition instead.
Ummm... 1) Kirkwall Chantry was blown up by one apostate mage (who did not belong to the Kirkwall Circle - which was nevertheless Annulled because, hey, why not? They're all just mages and dangerous); 2) the Circles rebelled because the Chantry and the Templars abused their power (in Kirkwall, Harrowed mages were being made Tranquil, which is against the Chanty law; people like Cole were quite literally left to rot and were swept under the carpet) - I wouldn't call that order; 3) Then he's just plain wrong. Fiona also thinks that it were the Templars who killed the Divine - shouldn't that be just as good an excuse not to side with the Templars? Also, Hinterlands at least had no shortage of hostile Templars.
Also, I don't recall him making any distinction between the mages he wants to kill and the mages he doesn't want to kill...
So, in effect, Lucius promised Templars that the world would finally give their Glorious Order the Respect and Adulation they deserved and were Unjustly Denied... after talking about exterminating all the mages and punching a priest. I mean, when you first go into VR to talk with the Chantry mothers, the lay people are there to root for the Templars! Lucius basically tells the Templars that their oath to serve and protect the Chantry and the regular people is just BS and that the Templars should just join him in his juvenile whining for moooar power and fame for doing their duty - after quite clearly refusing to do just that. And the Templars listen to him and are willing to join him! That really doesn't make me hold the Templars in any higher regard. It would be easier for me to sympathize with the Templars if Cory/Sampson had just corrupted the Lyrium they were taking, but their decision to follow a leader like Lucius absolutely, 100 % willingly without their freedom and/or lives being at stake really sours them for me.
But I'm saying that Fiona had the Inquisition as an option if you meet her at the Gull and the Lantern. She needed to keep her people safe, yes, and to do that she should have broken the agreement with Tevinter and joined the Inquisition instead. As for top down corruption, you're forgetting the crucial fact here. We don't recruit the corrupted templars, we recruit the lower ranking templars who were oath sworn to the order. In the case of the mages, Fiona had the option to think for herself (the top level templars were red lyrium stricken), as did every individual mage there. They were under no such oath. The lower ranking templars had to follow the orders of their superiors, otherwise it was insubordination, treason, dishonorable service, etc. Why didn't Fiona have the means to break the agreement with Tevinter?
1. I know. But the mages were still blamed for it regardless. Which was my only point. Lucius was declaring genocide against the kind of mages blamed for that incident. 2. But did the templars know about these atrocities? I doubt it. And that's why Lucius was able to trick them. Besides, the vote to rebel all came down to one vote. Perhaps people assumed that there was no legitimate grievance since the vote was split. In other words, true atrocities would elicit a unanimous vote for rebellion. 3. Well technically he was right, but for the wrong reasons. The explosion was due to mages, specifically Corypheus and the Warden mages, and Solas for allowing Cory to get the orb. But Lucius was blaming the rebel mages for it, and while he knew they were not the culprits, well... he didn't care. His goal was to frighten the templars into attacking the rebel mages and taking red lyrium under the assumption they would battle them with it. As for whom to believe, for the Inquisition its irrelevant since they know it was some individual evil entity. As for the common folk and the templars, I'm sure they would assume that the mages did it, since only they have the magical power to do so (proven by Kirkwall). Templars do not. And the hostile templars could be explained as those trying to stop the hostile mages.
I don't either. But he probably did to the templars off-screen just to assure them that the order wasn't unhinged.
Again, it was Denam who threw the punch, and Lucius simply stood by his templar brother. It was done to show that the templars are not the Chantry's "dogs" anymore. The people weren't there to root for the templars. They were there to demand the templars put down the heretics of the Inquisition. They wanted to use them. The Chantry wanted to use them. The mother told the crowd what the templars would do, and Denam said, "Guess again".
The templars didn't like what happened, but they were bound to follow their superiors. The rebel mages were free to leave, but they decided to follow Fiona into slavery to evil Tevinter. So which is least stupid, the soldiers bound by oath, or free mages who blindly follow their "leader" into slavery? There are at least three mages as well as Connor who express disapproval at the thought of joining Tevinter. So why couldn't all these mages simply abandon the rebellion and join the Inquisition as many other mages had already done? And as someone else pointed out, the templars needed lyrium. So that factored into it as well.
I consider Champions of the Just to be the best quest in this whole game, but unfortunately I think the game makes far more sense, and is better served by going for the Mages quest.
The Red Templars are simply a much more interesting and better developed enemy than the Venatori. The latter get hardly any development, and they were in dire need of it. Because the Templars have been poisoned and are turning into something that isn't really human at all anymore. Its an Invasion of the Body Snatchers thing really. But even then, they do have a story that is told through Samson and his various dealings. The Venatori however... are a Tevinter cult. And that's basically all we get. The Mage Rebellion are apparently forcibly inducted, but the game never mentions them ever again, nor is there any notes or NPCs with dialogue who describe how it happened, how loyal they are, whether they can and do think of how they've betrayed everyone etc etc etc. The Templars do have this sort of thing, but the Mages don't.
I would argue that Samson's story is much more interesting than Calpernia's story also. His connection with Cullen is a definate factor in the Mage route's favor too, as it gets Cullen more directly involved in the main campaign (and he even accompanies you on some missions). Samson has a story that develops an area which has been somewhat lacking thus far (the issue of how Templars were forced to become addicted to Lyrium, which invariably also eventually destroys their minds, by the Chantry). The games had brought this up before, but it was generally not dwelt on much, because the first 2 games are overwhelmingly more pro mage than pro Templar (as evidenced by the fact that you have lots of mages in your party, and only 1 ex templar).
I have no real problem with the Venatori, other than to say that the writers don't seem very interested in them. They have very few quests, and the ones they do have are pretty poor IMO (that frozen time place for example, which is a decent enough concept but there is no substance to that quest, no characters to make you care about any of it).
It must be said though that ultimately both choices make surprisingly little difference. The levels are still basically the same, and you mostly fight the same people in the same areas on the same quests. I would argue that the increased presence of Fiona, Samson (and potentially Alistair, Loghain etc) on the Mage's route lends more narrative credence to that route. It simply doesn't feel right for them to be killed in such off handed ways (especially Samson, who is only mentioned after his death on the Templar route). Both Calpernia and Barris are new characters and as such the narrative can (and in fact does) excise them almost completely (Barris does show up in Val Royeux, but he isn;t named at that point). And whilst you will miss the resolutuon to the Lord Seeker's arc, he does still get some closure later on in both quest lines.
And seeing as how Leliana and Cullen both get more to say and do that is of relevance to the main plot in the Mage's route than the Templar route, I would suggest that the Mages route is the better way to go. The Red Templars are written better, are more fun as enemies and there is just generally more intergration and accounting for older characters and storylines from the previous games, which is a big selling point for me.
The Venatori however... are a Tevinter cult. And that's basically all we get. The Mage Rebellion are apparently forcibly inducted, but the game never mentions them ever again, nor is there any notes or NPCs with dialogue who describe how it happened, how loyal they are, whether they can and do think of how they've betrayed everyone etc etc etc. The Templars do have this sort of thing, but the Mages don't.
I won't disagree with most of your points, but Dorian does explain what happened to the mages after the Venatori took over. He also explains who the Venatori are and how he was able to infiltrate them. Calpernia's quest also shows us who the Venatori are. Lennea also shows up again in the recording of the memory crystal, which is a nice touch.
Later parts of the mage path have some good features, it's true. But so does the templar path. I also think Cullen's story of lyrium addiction is all that is needed. Samson's just detracts from it. And the first part of the mages arc is just so terrible that there's no excuse for it.
As for fighting red templars, this is done anyway in later stages of the game. So it isn't as if you go without it. And you also get to fight them at Therinfal. The explanation for them is better in the templar arc.
As far as wartable is concerned Templars all the way. Mainly because they have more wartable missions if allied with and the biggest factor to me on why they have better wartable missions is the end result. Promotion of Ser Barris, which provides a cutscene some that is rare both within the wartable and game in general. The fact you do all these missions and actually see the results instead of just reading them and the result you see in character progression at that of a well deserving character.
I wish Ser Barris could be promoted within the ranks even if the templars were conscripted.
I wish Ser Barris could be promoted within the ranks even if the templars were conscripted.
I prefer the Templars by far but I always allign my choice more with the morality of my character.
In the case of the Templars, when we go to Therinfal we only know that we want the aid of the templars and something is going on with the Lord Seeker.
In the case of the Mages, when we go to Redcliffe we know that the mages there are in direct danger, we have an idea of Alexius' plan.
So most often I go with the mages, either because they support their freedom movement or because they know that they are in danger.
Obviously the Templars are too, but until we go to Therinfal we don't know that.
I like the templar mission better for a couple of things;
1) No time travel. Which is a story-telling sin. No matter how much i like Dorian and the Redcliffe Castle level design, I can never like this detail of the story.
2) Unique boss enemy. I still think Alexius' battle is more fun, but against the templars you get to battle a unique creature, even if it is a bit of a scrub.
3) Barris. Unlike Fiona he actually does crap, and does it well. Being able to appoint him Knight Commander is really fulfilling.
4) Abernache. No, I do not like this guy, but his character serves the purpose of player choice which is cool. In the start of the level, your choice on wether or not to do the banner thingy can lead to his death, and even after that you can later use him in judging Movran. Not a big difference, but one of the small nice details.
My assumption is that Felix's survival will play a role in the next game, so I might change my mind then depending on how much he'll do. He's still got the blight so there is no telling how long he will live.
I think templars are the logical choice regardless, since templars can beat mages in almost all circumstances. If you're concerned about time magic then you should get as many templars as possible to help you fight it.
The templar line is better after the first mission, In Hushed Whispers vs Champions of the Just will come down to personal taste
I did play the templar quest only once, and probably won't do it again. I think "In Hushed Wispers" is more exciting and emotional, and has better characters - altough I must admit I'm a bit biased because the templars pretty much epitomize everything I despise.
I almost always support mages in my DAO and DA2 play-throughs. I liked DAI in that the choice between mages and templars was even more complex IMO. If a DA4 happens I would need a third play-through to still decide this and a few other game choices if I could stomach another play-through. I'm actually leaning more towards the templar choice in DAI even though my bias is usually against the templars.
As others have mentioned the motivations of the templars rank and file seem more richly depicted in DAI which humanizes them better for me. I don't think we get to see the average Venatori or rebel mage in the same depth throughout DAI like we do with the Templars.
I wish they had at least made a bore table mission if you ally with the rebel mages where they would risk their lives to save a group of tranquil or something. Although locking the best side quests outside of meaningful game experience in the the war table is part of what deadened the DAI game experience for me. Other than helping close the breech and assaulting Mythal's temple the rebel mages don't seem to do anything I can remember. Would have been a nice touch if they showed up when zones are cleared to help the wounded. They could have helped in collecting libraries and artifacts left in abandoned circles.
Venatori as an organization are just evil murdering cultist scum and difficult to show they have any meaningful depth. Even when we see that Calpernia and Alexius have at least one redeeming motivation they are also still the psychopaths in charge of the group murdering tranquils, feeding people to red lyrium, willingly following a delusional psychotic darkspawn magister that assaulted the golden/blackened city, and various other evil reindeer games.
Fiona just falls into the delusional evil Ventatori leadership when she does the DA2 Orsino-ish flip from trying to save helpless innocent mages to next second being a Venatori leader after they murder rebel mages that won't join according to Dorian. I know you can alternative universe that choice if you ally/conscript mages first but I can't forget how quickly she goes evil and against actually helping mages. For me it would be like Bioware having Orsino as a companion in DA4 saying the whole murdering mages to become the harvester monster was a bad choice and never happened. I would never trust alternative universe Orsino. Fiona is just another bad Orsino story writing in my opinion and shouldn't have been in the attack on Haven. I wish they had explained her derpy transformation to Venatori better in game. Even in the mage ally choice, I wish she took initiative in helping tranquils or fighting Venatori in DAI to make up for the perceived evil of her alternative universe self.
Despite the time travel bit I also did like the actual "In Hushed Whispers" quest better. Although, having some templars fight with you to save themselves made "Champions Of The Just" quest better for me story-wise. I didn't like the gamey forced timed quest part though.
The rebel mages come across as feckless IMO. The rebel mages go from rebel enough to risk everything and rebel against the oppression of centuries of religious chantry rule to suddenly unwilling to do anything to help themselves other than passive servitude to a sketchy Tranquil murdering Tevinter mage.
Being unable to discuss the shack of murdered Tranquils in game is a big part of what ruins the "In Hushed Whispers" choice for me. They have a shack of murdered Tranquil and we get nothing WTF!
Also, as others have suggested before, it would have been more interesting to have whichever group you help first to then go help rescue the remaining group. IMO it would have been a better at least temporary end to the mage-templar war then just by default having credit going to Corybits stopping the war by destroying/co-opting each side.
I think the rationale was that it would take too long to contact the few remaining Circles across Thedas, and even then they would only be able to send a few mages each. The rebel mages were right there in Redcliffe, and the Inquisition still needed to stop the Mage/Templar War regardless. So it was killing two birds with one stone.
No, the Circles always have the loyalist mages, but I think it's understood that the mage population in southern Thedas was drastically reduced if you sided with templars. But even this is only because the rebel mages were mostly wiped out by the Venatori. Dorian confirms that most rebel mages either fled or were killed. The rest joined with the Venatori, and the Venatori themselves were comprised mostly of Tevinter mages and many soporotti, also from Tevinter.
Part of why open world games are difficult to do with story driven games. We have unlimited time to travel and waste time in the Forbidden Wastes, The Hinderlands, Storm Coast, and Fallow Mire but we have to pretend there wouldn't be time to contact remaining circles, Weissaupht, Tevinter, and Nevarra for mages and templars. IMO it would work better if they said the breech was absolutely stable after the first attempt and contacting the Chantry, the rebel mages, and the rebel templars was now the priority for an Inquisition to determine leads on who was responsible for blowing up the conclave and creating the sky hole.
Thanks for the tip on Dorian's intel that most rebel mages fled or were killed. IMO it would have provided more depth if they had a side quest that allowed a group of rebel mages that fled be saved by the Inquisition or if they allowed proper burial and identification of the mass burial of rebel mages that were killed.
Too bad, I actually liked the idea that the circles and the College of Enchanters post DAI would mostly be filled with ex-Venatori scum.
Although I'm also glad they didn't go with the standard of the past games that most mages when oppressed, stressed, or just bored will usually choose to become an abomination or evil blood mage. Nice to see them write a more balanced expected response where some flee and some are killed rather than just becoming evil so we have gamey pointless mooks to fight.
Maybe they will have a companion in DA4 whose secret is they were an evil Venatori.
Dai Grepher:
My point about Cullen is that the Mage route lets him get involved in the main story. His lyrium addiction storyline is a personal one, and is fair enough. But it has far more impact if you are pursuing Samson, because you have a very visible example of why Samson was doing what he did. Samson argues that even if you don't feel any pity for him (which he never asks for), this addiction is something that has been used to control and manipulate the Templars. In giving them the Red Lyrium, he knew it would destroy them, but it was no worse than the slow death that the Chantry gives its Templars. At least they had enough lyrium, and someone (i,e himself) looking out for them, which is more than they had before. He admits it wasn't perfect and perhaps was always going to fail, but its not like they were moving from a perfect situation in the first place under the Chantry. His story is enhanced and illustrated by Cullen's struggles, and in turn Cullen's story helps to show that despite the pains, a true Templar would never willingly accept a poisoned chalice and forsake his duty, just to feel a little better.
Yes, the Templar quests with the Freemen, on the Emprise etc, still happen in both routes. But they make more sense in the Mage route. Both these operations are large scale affairs, and it simply rings more true if the Templars have sizable numbers and resources. If they were mostly wiped out, it seems rather odd that they still have the manpower to do all this. Also, because the Dales are being used to transport materials for Samson's ceremonial armor in the Mage route, it makes far more sense when Carol and his men show up in the Graves. Because by then, the operation has been pretty comprehensively smashed. The Freemen leaders are dead, and their assets seized. Showing up now is a pretty belated move by the Templars. But it does hold water if they *need* this route for Samson's materials and lyrium.
All I'm saying is that the pre existing quests for the Templars are subtely reinforced (the Emprise quests in the quarry also for example), and that the same cannot be said of the Venatori (whose quests are all exactly the same, with the same notes etc and nothing really changes at all).
Lastly, I would like to both add my voice to the displeasure at the time travel shenanigans in 'Hushed Whispers'. It is extremely irritating that such a thing was put into Dragon Age, but I would contend that the Quest itself is otherwise written very well. I consider it the 2nd best quest in the game, behind Champions of the Just. I would also point out that whilst the Templar route avoids the Time Travel bit, it does have the equally ridiculous Hologram bit during Calpernia;s personal quest, complete with Mass Effect style music. And the prison holding Erasthenies (or whatever his name is), looks extremely sci-fi too, quite frankly (and Corypheus has left several audio logs in the Temple too!).
Either path your choose, the opposing side becomes everything you feared they might become. Mages turning to blood magic and demons or Templars turning into homicidal rage monsters on a magical crack high. The side you choose to support becomes the poor victim of circumstance worthy of redemption. Mages being hunt from simply being born different.or Templars under the demonic control that know not what they do.
I originally went with the Templars since I am a Circle supporter and see the ideal behind the formation of the Order as the best of bad options. But on my second run through going to the mages, I find a magister leading the mages down an even more dangerous path and pressing them into slavery. This cannot stand. The order can always be rebuilt once the chaos has ended. That Tevinter bastard must DIE!
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