69 réponses à ce sujet

[Sidney]

The problem isn't just combat but also encounter design. DA2's combat was, for me, fine the encounter design was appalling (paratroopers for example). DAO's combat was terrible (unresponsive simplistic POS) the encounter design was actually ok.

 

DAI manages to have problems in both combat and encounter design. The encounter design is mostly mucked up because of the no healing/regen decision. They wound up with a series of teeny tiny fights with a small number of overly amped up foes. Instead of fighting an actual level 15 mage you fight a level 15 mage monster who has 5000 hit points when your whole team of level 15 people can't combine for that many hit points.  YThe model is based on attrition and so you get these constant uninteresting small fights that are extended because that is how they plan to create attrition and "challenge".

[DragonAgeLegend]

I think Inquisitions combat feels almost perfect, what would have made it perfect for me was if the final combo for a mage was different for each element. Like the Electricity brings thunder down, fire would have the 4 fire balls fling out, and ice would maybe have an ice blast. Still good though, would have differentiated the weapons though. 

[RVallant]

I do think they need to revisit if they want to be an RPG or Action-RPG or whatever.

 

Not quite sure they learnt the lesson from DA2, don't pander to the 'everyone' crowd, you won't win them.

[In Exile]

I do think they need to revisit if they want to be an RPG or Action-RPG or whatever.

Not quite sure they learnt the lesson from DA2, don't pander to the 'everyone' crowd, you won't win them.

The moral really seems to be "don't create what people think is a broken UI".

[Elhanan]

The problem isn't just combat but also encounter design. DA2's combat was, for me, fine the encounter design was appalling (paratroopers for example). DAO's combat was terrible (unresponsive simplistic POS) the encounter design was actually ok.
 
DAI manages to have problems in both combat and encounter design. The encounter design is mostly mucked up because of the no healing/regen decision. They wound up with a series of teeny tiny fights with a small number of overly amped up foes. Instead of fighting an actual level 15 mage you fight a level 15 mage monster who has 5000 hit points when your whole team of level 15 people can't combine for that many hit points.  YThe model is based on attrition and so you get these constant uninteresting small fights that are extended because that is how they plan to create attrition and "challenge".

Might be playing different games, cause in mine the opposing Mage of longevity was a bit healthier, but always seemed to get that barrier replaced before I could land a killing shot. I am not a fan of the Boss fight in GoA, the Arishock duel in DA2, or other long kiting encounters, but have not seen that yet in DAI.

[Darkly Tranquil]

They made a mistake in half assing the PC controls and tactics, that's for sure. Combat on PC is dire. I feel like I spend most of my time fighting the controls and the stupidly of the companion AI and not the enemies.

[Eternal Phoenix]

I made the mistake of saying the game was trying to please everyone with tactical and action combat a while ago and that it doesn't work but that was based on the gameplay videos I saw.

 

Since playing it, my other initial suspicions were right about the game playing better than it looks and it does. I said it doesn't work with action combat but that was before I discovered the block-slash ability which is the equivalent of having an actual block/parry for the warrior, the only difference here in Inquisition compared to other action-RPG's is that you get to map it to whatever button you want and it's optional and there's also a roll ability that works as it would in games like Dark Souls, Witcher etc....

 

Having discovered these abilities, the game feels very competent in its melee combat. I've played enough of the mage and rogue to know that they too have their own counter moves and defensive moves which is what DA2 lacked when it stepped into action territory. Well, DA2 did have some abilities for this stuff but they weren't as controllable as what you've got in Inquisition where you get to control the mage's teleportation or the warrior's parry without delay.

 

The tactical camera and party control is just a plus and I think Bioware did great with the combat this time around. When you're not in tactical camera, the game feels like an action-RPG but then in tactical camera, it takes on a new gist very efficiently if you ask me.

 

Oh and finally, rogues aren't overpowered anymore as they were in DA2 with their massive passive critical abilities. The warrior finally feels stronger, as it should be with its defensive abilities and the guard mechanic. I never understood the logic behind a rogue who uses daggers and light armor somehow coming out better than a warrior who uses heavy armor and swords in DA2 but thankfully that's not replicated in Inquisition and every class feels far more balanced with the warrior feeling naturally more stronger than the rogue. The mage feels powerful with a variety of spells to cast as usual but is now more easily killed, again, that's how it should be in a party based game where warriors are traditionally the tanks.

[Elhanan]

They made a mistake in half assing the PC controls and tactics, that's for sure. Combat on PC is dire. I feel like I spend most of my time fighting the controls and the stupidly of the companion AI and not the enemies.

Re-mapping the keys before play avoided a lot of control issues for me, and if I can remember to use the Tac-Cam to place my ranged team on Hold in various locations, I avoid many of the AI annoyance, too. I guess it feels a lot like other games I have played, because I am not having that much trouble.

[StingingVelvet]

Since KotOR Bioware have been trying to make games that appeal both to "real" RPG fans and more casual audiences. This usually results in being okay at everything but not truly great at anything. In contrast Bethesda went fully into the action camp after Morrowind and now they make pretty good action RPGs.

 

I think Bioware should either return to Origins' style and make "real" RPGs (that game still sold better than DA2 or this will, from the look of things) or go fully into making action games. One or the other.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Re-mapping the keys before play avoided a lot of control issues for me, and if I can remember to use the Tac-Cam to place my ranged team on Hold in various locations, I avoid many of the AI annoyance, too. I guess it feels a lot like other games I have played, because I am not having that much trouble.

I wish you could tell me the secret because I am really not enjoying the game at all. The gameplay and controls are utterly ruining the experience for me. If this was anything other than a Dragon Age game, I would have already given up and gotten a refund long ago.

[Sidney]

Might be playing different games, cause in mine the opposing Mage of longevity was a bit healthier, but always seemed to get that barrier replaced before I could land a killing shot. I am not a fan of the Boss fight in GoA, the Arishock duel in DA2, or other long kiting encounters, but have not seen that yet in DAI.

You don't gave the pure silliness of the Arishok fight so far (and how sad such a good villain went out in a lousy fight) but the foes are massive damage sponges. When you look at their HP and compare to yours there is no way they can have that level of HP. That is because you no longer have mobs -- in most fights I outnumber my foes at this point. The longer the fight the more likely you make a mistake and take damage.

[Elhanan]

You don't gave the pure silliness of the Arishok fight so far (and how sad such a good villain went out in a lousy fight) but the foes are massive damage sponges. When you look at their HP and compare to yours there is no way they can have that level of HP. That is because you no longer have mobs -- in most fights I outnumber my foes at this point. The longer the fight the more likely you make a mistake and take damage.

Am uncertain that a longer health bar on the enemy actually indicates more health, as I have the graphic info turned off for my game. What I do know is that it can drop dramatically by using better choices, combos, etc (eg; Longshot on a distant target; even more so if target is Frozen). Also have no visuals indicating the HP total of the party; became tired of such displays during SWTOR, and it helps me focus a bit more on the overall game rather than just the UI to remove them.

[Elhanan]

I wish you could tell me the secret because I am really not enjoying the game at all. The gameplay and controls are utterly ruining the experience for me. If this was anything other than a Dragon Age game, I would have already given up and gotten a refund long ago.

Having played a lot of other Bioware games, as well as Skyrim, I replaced the Keys to WASD for movement, Q-E for strafing, Cap Locks for Search, Spacebar for Pause, and other more muscle-memorized choices. The only awkward key for me is Jumping at Backspace; prefer Spacebar, but the ME series has been my Pause go to control for too long now. In addition, I use Mnemonic enhancement to recall other Commands (eg; L for Leave it alone, K for Klear Kommands, M for map, etc.) Y is an actual visual cue for Everyone fire on the same target.

Tac-Cam is activated by the Mouse Wheel, and have also remapped these Commands in a sim fashion.

Hope this helps.

[Dreamer]

If we accept that they were trying to please everyone, then yes, I think it was a mistake.

[Rahelron]

Im a huge fan of tactical combat games, specially those that use turns (xcom, divinity, old school RPGs). So, if I had to choose DAI would have this system.

 

But, I dont have problems with an action oriented game (if it works properly).

 

In DAI, BioWare tried to pleased everyone, giving the player the option of choosing two different combat systems. The problem is that neither are very good, IMO of course.

 

I think it would be way better if DAI had only one well developed system - even if it was action oriented. For example, I would see no problems playing without the tactical cam if I was able to give more orders to my party pre-battle. I really miss options like: If this, do that.

 

What do you guys think? Also, theres hope to see major changes in the combat or the best we can expect are fixes on the tactical cam (PC)? 

 

Short answer: yes, they did a mistake.

 

I played both tactical and action based games enjoying them a great deal. I played X-Com and I loved it, I played Diablo and I loved it too. I also enjoyed The Witcher II combat, because clunky controls are something I can get used to.

 

 

What I don't enjoy about DAI's combat is not the fact it has terrible controls on PC. It's the fact that is not visceral nor tactical.

• It's not visceral because it's too slow and you need to babysit your companions if you want them to do something useful, hence you have to pause all the time. Button mashing is not satisfying because all abilities have a long reload time that asks you to use them strategically. In Diablo if you have the right skillset and the right equipment you can perform your combos non stop, and enemies just explode. When you go against a boss you have to be a little bit more careful, but being careful means running around and waiting for the right moment to strike; action never stops. In DA when you face difficult encounters you have to coordinate your group and this means stopping the action all the time to issue orders, since there are no extensive tactics (i mean the screen in which you can program you companion's behaviour, telling them to use their abilities in specific circumstances).
• It's not tactical because tactics don't really matter: I tried to order my tank to block chokepoints only to see him leaving his post immediatly... even when he stayed where I told him to stay I saw enemies slipping around him anyways. Crowd control abilities last a decent amount of time only on minions and not on bosses. Problem is that when you are fighting loads of minions you simply can't block a decent a mount of them since all good crowd control systems work on a single target. This makes you end up in crowded brawls where it's impossible to keep a formation and there are no tactics other then trying to perform the combos you have designed your group for as often as possible.

I don't think that all the problems that I listed can be solved keeping an hybrid system that is both tactical and action oriented. I think those at bioware need to make a choice and I don't really care in which direction, as I said I enjoy both tactical and action oriented games. But I enjoy games with a GOOD combat system, something that Dragon Age has not.

[NM_Che56]

Enjoying the combat just fine. 

 

Zero complaints 

Same.

 

People are entitled to not like it.  People are entitled to like it.  Opinions and all that...

[Emu8207]

I have to agree, I think Bioware made a mistake by going the middle route instead of going towards more of an Origins style combat or more towards Dragons Dogma combat. Melee Characters for me are unplayable due to no custom controller support, which means I'm stuck using Ranged characters.

 

I will say that I liked how improved Archer is from previous games, might be the only good thing about the combat in this game. I don't hate the combat, I find it lackluster in comparison to the previous games and others like Dragons Dogma, which has much better combat then this game.

[NoForgiveness]

I really like the combat. I think it's a good middle ground between dao and da2. My only real complaint would be the "no healing" thing. It doesn't make the combat worse. I just don't see a benefit from its removal.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I really liked DAO's combat. It has the best combat in the series.

But DAI's is far from the unplayable mess people say it is.

[Ryzaki]

Combat wouldn't be so bad if the AI wasn't so godawful. When my companions aren't being morons it's quite fun.

 

I don't understand how BW keeps the same terrible combat AI but decides to take out tactics. How on earth did that meeting go?